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Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Volkswagen Passat

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  • Next question,with a four and auto xmission, is there a noticeable drop-off in power when using the air conditioner?
  • manamalmanamal Posts: 434
    My camry weighs a little over 3100 lbs...
    Not a 50% increase from 1988.

    The smaller cars are getting bigger, though...at least hondas.

    My 1984 Civic was about 1900 lbs, an '03 civic is
    2400 lbs. that is a 25% increase....

    The amazing this is the cars a much bigger on the inside, but get the same gas milage.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    but it also means that your choices if you want a little car for commuting or whatever are becoming more ad more limited all the time.

    I wish they would bring a couple of the minicars here from Europe or Japan. I heard a while back they might be considering this.

    Right now the only little car you can get is the Mini.

    Lighter is better! :-)

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • The biggest problem with this is the increasing level of safety measures needed to get a car on the road today. It's hard enough already, but when you get any smaller than an echo or similar sized vehicle, there is only a limited amount of space that can be use for crumple zones and to protect the occupant. The old civics, tercels, sentras, etc. of yesteryear would fare not very well using today's test measurements for safety.
  • 50% more weight now is not as unrealistic as you think. Of course it depends on your age, and what you consider "a few years" back.

    Hondas and Toyotas may not have gained as much as some other brands.

    1992 GTI 2346 lbs

    1997 GTI 2564 lbs + 9%

    2002 GTI (2.8lVR6) 3011 lbs +28%

    2003 Golf R32 (3.2lVR6) ~3420 lbs +46%

    There are numerous more examples, just go to Edmunds' great historical resources, as I did.

    Tan: "Let's say the current camry weighs 3500 lbs (hefty estimate...)...50% is 1750 lbs."
    Tan, before you start criticizing others, get your math straight. I said 50% more, now. That is, the original car would have been 2333 lbs, not 1750. Using your convenience math, you made an error of 33%.

    I agree that some cars have gained less, but they still are significantly heavier:
    1990 Toyoto Camry base model: 2690 lbs
    2002 XLE V6 Camry 3362 lbs +25%

    If you are wondering about my engine choices, that is part of the entire point. More powerful engines have and needed to become available with newer cars, which in turn has made them heavier, as well.

    - D
  • talon95talon95 Posts: 1,110
    Here's the % of weight increase for a number of fairly mainstream cars from 1993 to 2003:

    Accord - 10%
    (changed class from compact to midsize)
    Camry - 3%
    Intrepid - 10%
    Regal - 5%
    Taurus - 9%
    Golf GL - 10%
    Civic - 6%
    Corolla - 9%
    Passat - 8%

    These figures are from Edmund's, using base engine, medium level trim. For these cars, that's the big sellers. If there wasn't a medium level trim, I used base trim. Formula was (2003 weight - 1993 weight)/1993 weight.

    Yes, weight has been increasing, but 50% is definitely WAY, WAY on the extreme end. Not a single one of these mainstream cars has had a weight increase of over 10%.

    I don't deny that cars are somewhat heavier than 10 years ago, but you originally said:

    "... but cars also weigh about 50% more than just a few years back."

    The facts just don't support that blanket statement... even your own followup post shows only one example that comes even near to that 50% figure.

    Is a ~10% increase "significant"? Well, for one thing, given how much attention is paid to government crash tests, I'm not surprised to see cars being "beefed up" to do better in them. I'm sure that results in some of the weight gain.
  • Hey,

    Can anybody tell me of some good articles (CR, Car and Driver, etc) that compare the 03 Altima 3.5, Passat GLX, Accord V6, and Camry V6. These are the mainstream sedans today that I am interested in. I do not want to look at another Ford product, ie, Mazda 6. It's a shame that a reputable company like MAzda has to use a Ford engine in a product that they help will save the company!! Oh well! I wish them luck!

    Thanks for your help!
  • I think that you are comparing apples to oranges on your '90 Camry to '02 Camry despite the same name.

    the '90 was a base model.
    Wild stab in the dark, its missing a few decently heavy things that the '02 XLE V6 had.
    Side Air Bags
    Air Conditioner
    Alloys vs Steel Wheels
    Air Bags
    Cruise Control
    Stereo(w/ speakers)
    ABS
    Full size spare vs. compact spare
    Power windows
    Power locks

    The Camry LE for '02 weighs in at 3082 lbs. w/ I4 5MT but it still comes with many of the features that the V6 XLE comes with. The camry has also grown 6.9" in length, 3.3" in width, and 3.8" in height since '90(which is about 20-30% all the way around). Considering that, the now 392# is well worth it when you get all the safety equipment, 30% more HP, and all the convenience features. In fact, I'm kinda surprised that it hasn't gained more weight.

    Just had to be the devil's advocate =o)
  • talon95talon95 Posts: 1,110
    The articles you're looking for don't really exist yet. The closest thing at this point is the recent CR test of the 2003 Accord, Legacy and Saturn L with 4-cyl engines. They promise a test of the V-6 Accord in an upcoming issue... don't know what other cars will be part of that comparison. Since the Mazda 6 missed the 4-cyl comparo, I think it's a safe bet that it will be in the V-6 test.

    The other Accord tests of which I'm aware are mostly individual tests, rather than head-to-head with the competition. Each article has something to say about how the Accord compares to selected competitors... mostly the Passat because Honda targeted that car in some respects, and the Altima because of the "HP wars" with the V-6 engines. Some individual tests are on Edmunds, CarPoint, New Car Test Drive and in Car and Driver. Motor Trend also tested the Accord V-6 vs. the Mercedes CLK320, which is probably of limited value to you based on your requirements.
  • The other thing is that you're not comparing comparable sized vehicles. The '90 Camry was smaller and was less equipped than the current Corolla. BY ALOT! In '90, the 4cyl camry had 93 HP, had no airbags, probably had casette and air conditioning (based on how most were sold) and had LOTS of issues with rust around the wheel wells in particular. The '03 Corolla is quite a bit larger than the Camry was in '90 but now has standard Air conditioning, power mirrors, CD player, tilt wheel, split folding seats, rear head restraints, along with a host of other safety measures. A much better comparision would be the Camry in 1990 to the Corolla today. The only car that would come close to comparing to the current Camry in 1990 would be the Cresida.
  • I suppose what it really comes down to is: have 0-60 times increased for ordinary cars like the Accord over the last 10-15 years? It seems to me that people's expectations have increased - thus we see people fighting over split-second 0-60 time differences in family sedans. I remember when it wasn't such a concern. And in the reviews, I'm always seeing references to freeway merging. I've driven cars tiny-to-huge for 30 years and have never really had any trouble merging onto freeways, but now it seems to be a preoccupation. We seem more power-hungry. I'm not complaining about it - just an observation.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    what I would like to see is that exact same list, where weight increase averaged 10% (or maxed at 10%, or whatever) and see how much the models compared have increased in peak hp output. I will bet it is a lot more than 10%. That 93 hp base camry now has 157 hp right? That is about a 60% increase.

    If memory serves, corolla back then was about 105 hp, now it is 130, so that is slightly less than a 25% increase in power.

    toyotaken's point is well taken - many of these cars have changed their position in the market, becoming bigger cars than they were then, but that is part of the problem. People haven't gotten much bigger, families have if anything shrunk in size in the U.S., and I can't believe that the amount these cars (like camry) have grown can be commensurate with the added safety equipment that is required today. The '90 camry WAS about the size of today's corolla, so the difference in size now is a good 25% or more. Are we suggesting that the addition of a safety cage and crumple zones requires a 25% bump in size? How can that be when echo has met federal safety requirements too, and is half the size?

    I think the obvious answer is that in the U.S. market bigger is better (SUVs prove that, don't they?) and horsepower wars are a must to woo consumers.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • talon95talon95 Posts: 1,110
    Since I posted the weight increases, here are the horsepower increases in base engines:

    Accord - 28%
    Camry - 17%
    Intrepid - 31%
    Regal - 43%
    Taurus - 11%
    Golf GL - 0%
    Civic - 13%
    Corolla - 13%
    Passat - 27%

    So, with one exception, the horsepower increases have exceeded the weight increases.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    that one exception won't be an exception for long...how long do you suppose VW will keep the 115 hp base engine for the golf? In that size and price bracket, Golf is now the very lowest-powered car. I am all for it, but alas, VW will follow market trends and up the ante soon, I am sure.

    The rest of the cars prove my point: they all increased power more than they increased their weight, some dramatically! (Regal at 43% increase? - whew!)

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Posts: 1,391
    I had a gen 2 Camry V6 (88.5), though with the 5-speed...weighed about 3000 pounds (slightly less). Add the automatic transmission, you're closer to 3200 lbs.

    sorry my math ain't right all the time....with if I have an engineering degree....
  • I heard on one board that Toyota actually hired away a stylist from Buick to design the new Avalon. Looks like Honda made him a better offer to redesign the new Accord. But he did a better job for Toyota, I think.
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    that Toyota and Honda are fighting over!
  • I am trying to decide between buying the Passat GL or Accord EX-V6. My main concerns are reliability and safety features such as side air curtains and ABS. Any suggestions?
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Posts: 1,391
    Both cars have them standard.

    Both cars also

    If you like stickshift...Passat GL

    Automatics....both have 5-speed automatics

    Fog lights...both don't have them

    Passat doesn't have:
    Alloy wheels
    Leather Interior
    Sunroof
    Automatic Climate Control
    etc....
  • hi, just looked at consumer reports' reliability ratings of past years' models of the 2 cars. accord's reliability looks much better than passat's from model year 99, with passat still showing worrisome areas in "power equipment," and to a lesser extent, hardware, brakes, suspension and fuel systems.

    seems to confirm owner feedback from family members and friends on their vw vehicles (jettas, not passats) about those problems.

    the passat body should also be changing soon. sorry don't have info on safety equipment, but accord from latest news just got a 5-star safety rating.

    throw in resale, including consumer reports now ranking accord #1 over the passat and camry, and you've got a strong case favoring the accord.

    unless relative exclusivity and that "german feel" are high on your score card.

    good luck.
  • The 2003 Accord is hands down a better value and performance vehicle comapred to the Camry or Passat.

    Test drive the top of the line models for all three (V6; the Passat W8 doesn't count), and you'll see. And speaking from experience:

    Accord will be problem free
    Camry will have few problems, but performance is a bit subdued (which isn't too bad).
    Passat is a joke; you will have problems mechianically, and the performance is sloppy. Add to that, they are overpriced.

    Anyway, test drive, compare prices and options, and make your own choice.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    there are no more transmission recalls, eh?!

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • let's also hope that Toyota's sludging days are over.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • bowke28bowke28 Posts: 2,185
    on any honda trannies...there was an issue with a vendor's part, and honda has no way to tell if any particular car was affected, so they extended the warranty on all v6 trannies for honda and acura to 7 yrs/100k miles, just in case. if your tranny doesnt fail, then no harm, no foul. but if it does, then they know exactly what to do.

    BTW...they no longer use that vendor.
  • babybbabyb Posts: 18
    Honda has issued extended tranny warranties to not only V6's but also 4 cylinders. Honda doesn't do recalls often, but they do have tranny problems on occasion.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Posts: 647
    Quote "Passat is a joke; you will have problems mechianically, and the performance is sloppy. Add to that, they are overpriced."

    I guess that's why Edmunds, Consumer Reports and most of the Automobile magazines always rate the Passat as "Best Family Sedan". I guess you must know something they don't. Not to mention the excellent crash test performance of the Passat from both the government and insurance tests, and the fact that the Passat has the best resale value.
  • bowke28bowke28 Posts: 2,185
    are you nuts?!?! you must be trying to remember the commercial. however, it said it has ONE OF THE BEST resale values, which is true, but there isnt a vehicle on the road that has better resale value than any honda model. (excluding passport). heck, even odysseys start out INCREASING in value for about the 1st year! the honda accord has the longest life expectancy and the highest resale value in the sedan market. as a matter of fact, there is only 1 vehicle in the world that resells better than the accord.........the civic.
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