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High Performance Luxury Sedans

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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    America has no true "supersedans", at least nothing in this category. BMWs and Mercedes are not overpriced. Nothing with 4-doors can touch the M5, E55 or Jaguar XJR. You get what you pay for.

    M
  • I have to say that America has sedans that go "quick" and some go "fast", but agreed, when compared to the European competition, none of ours are "super". (And they aren't $70K either.) The GTP, and the Impala are examples of what we can do with horsepower, but they do not compare to the precision handling, safety features, interior amenities, and long term build quality. Some are very fun to drive. But the shortfalls show up if you jump out of my M5 and into the Impala or GTP. (I can speak from experience.) Those who like the American "super" cars should keep buying them. For the price, they can be alot of fun, but they cannot be compared to the Mercedes or the BMW, or even the Jaguar. Those who would like to (compare)probably have not driven one of the three European models.
  • xorbtantxorbtant Posts: 37
    M5! Wow! Is this a four door car? Was that blur a vette? Let me check my rear view mirror. I guess driving is knowing.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Are you going to trade up to an M5? I agree, America does have some nice sedans, but I wouldn't call them super. The Grand Prix GTP is good, the old Impala and first generation Taurus SHO were good too, but next to the Euro giga-buck cars they just don't and can't be made to measure up. They aren't supposed to either, price says so.

    M
  • stehersteher Posts: 37
    Over here in Germany we also have the Audi S8.
    It has a 40-valve V8 with 360 hp and is a true competitor to M5 and E55 when you consider pure power. But it has a few bonus features: 1. the AWD and 2. it has more interiour space.
  • powerisfunpowerisfun Posts: 358
    They are great cars, I didn't mean to
    state otherwise, but man they sure command a premium! Just to get a friendly (albeit pointless) rivalry going, I'd like to point out the top 5 reasons the Import Super Sedans can't compete with my '96 Impala SS:

    5. Roominess (it's as big as a whale but still
    moves like a baracuda)

    4. lower depreciation (The market value is about
    the same for a decently
    kept Impala with 40,000
    miles as it was when new.
    Admittedly, I doubt that
    matters to someone who can
    drop 60-70 grand on a car)

    3. No snob appeal (No doctors, lawyers,
    celebrities nor their spoiled
    kids would want to be caught
    dead in this SS Minnow of a
    car.)

    2. Sound (Nothing beats the sound of an American
    V8 muscle car.)

    1. Cars in front of you move out of your way
    because they think you're a cop.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I think I like that "cop" reason the best. On just sheer size and room, you're correct again. Only the BMW 740i Sport combines roominess and sportiness in a Euro car, the other big ones are not as sporty. However serious sport sedans don't trade on room, nor do people buying them. Sound of the engine, that is an opinion. To me there is nothing like the sound of an AMG tuned V8 or an Italian V8 or V12 running flat-out. Depreciation, that is a good thing for the Impala, because it's mate the Caprice is just oh-so terribly cheap right now, with the Impala being just a tad better. It still will never hold it's value like an M5 or E55, they are going for above sticker now, no Impala ever did.

    Impala SS, good performance car..just not in this league.

    M
  • I got rid of my 540i and got my M5 March 1. Although I have not put many miles on it, I can tell you that with the combination of torque and horsepower, you can get the American muscle car feel, combined with the European integrity and engineering for a car that will stay side by side with a C5 Corvette all the way to 150MPH. (Previous response at #130 - didn't understand what he meant!?) The Audi S8 is also a fantastic car but unfortunately I don't think we will see it here in the US. Saw one in Florence,Italy a few weeks ago...an awesome car indeed.

    The E55s, 1 year old are selling for list with up to 15K miles on them. Lots of demand, not many cars. I do not know if the M5 will retain value the same way...hopefully so.

    On looks, the best thing about the E55/M5 is that 99% of the people on the road think you are driving a normal E430/528 sport model. An embarrassed Mustang made this mistake a few weeks ago. He was very surprised as I waited for him at the next red light. You couldn't do this with a more obvious sports car.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Just have a look at www.wwheels.com and you'll E55s going for 10-15K above sticker with a good amount of miles on them. Where in the world would anyone pay 27-29K for an used Impala? I can't see that, it wasn't worth that much new to me. Performance was good, but the rest of the car clearly wasn't built up to 30K standards. However that is true very few cars retain 80% of their value over 4 years, but that should read very few "American" cars retain 80% of their value after 5 years. Euro cars like the old E500/500E and the new E55 will and others like the BMW Z8 and Mercedes CL will retain their value. With Euro cars it is far more regular for them to retain value like that.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I agree totally. I don't think anyone will top BMW and Mercedes-Benz at what they do best.

    M
  • scouser1scouser1 Posts: 2
    Love the car - Black with Nav and Sports plus
    sound. 2K miles - 120mph reached and cruising.

    Everyone else loves the car - turns heads everywhere. People come up to me and complement the car as to its beauty. In a line up with BMW,
    MERCEDES, BMW and LEXUS the JAG gets the
    complements. Looks is not everything but it goes a
    long way in the luxury class.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Wrong link before, try www.wwwheels.com.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Class wise a Jag may be the classiest, but it isnt the best car.

    M
  • powerisfunpowerisfun Posts: 358
    Thanks for the link. Interesting how the euros keep their value. About the only place you can get an Impala now for a decent deal is on the Impala car club sites (NAISSO for National Association of Impala SS Owners, the main page is at www.impalaclub.com). They're fairly rare...only 69,678 cars over the 3-year production, and if you want a non-black one (like me), they're even more rare. If you find one at a dealer, unless it's beat to hell and has a lot of miles you'll get gouged. I looked for 6 months at dealers and ads before I found one on one of the NAISSO sites for a good deal ($21,200 for a '96 in Green/Gray with 20K miles) and I had to go six states away. On the NAISSO sites is where I'm seeing $27K-$29K. I've seen even higher but many of those were with aftermarket stuff (superchargers, turbos, etc).
    Aftermarket support is fantastic for these cars, so if you happen to come upon one at a stoplight and it out accelerates your M5, don't feel bad, chances are it has 500-600 hp with aftermarket stuff (and that's about what it would take to beat the M5).

    Do you happen to know what the M5's curb weight is? The Impala SS's official curb weight is
    4018 lbs. I don't know if that includes gas or not...probably not.
  • M5 curb weight is just over 4000 LBS. The E55 is about 200 less. Hate to change the subject, but the new M3 coming later this year will be the car to beat from what I have read and seen. Curb weight will be low 3000s with 340 HP. They will probably gear it slightly different so its 0 - 60 time is just behind the M5, but it will fly I am sure for about $20K less. Anyway, it will be a great car I'm sure.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    It will take a lot of "aftermarket" to out-accelerate an M5. The M5 as noted above isn't a light weight, but with 400hp it really doesn't have to be. Nice talking to you about the Impala, I guess I have a little more respect for this car now. I always kinda liked it anyway, I just couldn't get with the interior.

    M
  • powerisfunpowerisfun Posts: 358
    Wow! The M5 is a 2-tonner too?! I had no idea.
    Well, anyway with 400 hp, I'm sure it doesn't feel like it. My Impala has 305 hp, 360 lb-ft torque (because of aftermarket headers, exhaust, throttle body, intake, ram-air, and performance-tuned PCM) and it feels like a light weight. I can imagine
    400 hp with BMW suspension must feel light as a feather.
    You're right, the interior is one of the Impala SS's well known shortcomings. It only came in Gray for one thing (no matter which exterior color you got) and it isn't very luxurious. The leather is about the cheapest looking leather you can get. However, for the power I got and the price I paid, I'm not complaining. She's still my baby.

    Anyway, just out of curiosity, I have a series of questions. What is the EPA ratings for fuel mileage for the M5 and the E55? The Impala SS has ratings of 18/26, but the best I've seen is 22.3 on the highway (I'm sure all the aftermarket add-ons are at least partially responsible for that).

    Are there any good sites to see a picture of an E55? Edmunds has a picture of the M5, but not the
    E55.

    One more question. My wife's friend just bought a 1990 BMW M3. Does anyone happen to know what kind of power the car had back then? I asked her (the friend) but she didn't know either.

    Thanks.
    -Tim
  • emkayusaemkayusa Posts: 7
    1990 BMW M3 has a 2.3 liter 4cyl, with 192hp, 170ft/lbs of torque, and a curb weight of about 2900 pounds.

    Not a speed demon by current M3 standards, but still very quick. I'm jealous, I would love to find one of those.
  • powerisfunpowerisfun Posts: 358
    Thanks for the info. She'll be glad to be able to tell people now. You don't happen to know the rpms for the hp and torque peaks do you? Sorry I know that's asking a lot, but I thought I'd ask anyway.
    It is a nice car, but too small for me. I'm 6'5" which can be a real pain some times.
  • xorbtantxorbtant Posts: 37
    Hey you can get Impala's cheap in FL. This guy at church could only get 13,5k for his 96 Impala with 55k on it. I guess the Impala price depends on where you are.
  • jesseliujesseliu Posts: 41
    You can get current E55 pics from Mercedes web site. If you want a 99 pic, I'll have to find one. I have pictures of my car but don't have a scanner. btw the E55 is 400lbs ligther than the M5. Big difference between the two is Torque.
  • cuadancuadan Posts: 13
    My Humble Opinion :
    M5 rocks...
    Now..take into consideration that I am a poor teenager who only dreams of saving 70k for the M5. Actually, I'm going to be a missionary doctor so I don't expect to buy something like that, but I am an official car freak and Ive been following the latest M5 since the rumors about it started. The E39 M5 is a monster. I think some of the things that appeal most to my sense of car appreciation is the fact that you get the practical and cushy side of the deal as well as the "smoke as much rubber as you want" part of it. It's a "sleeper". That means that punks in Z28's, SS's, Firebirds, and other other kind of Japanese import thats got all kinds of mods on it come to a light, see a sedan and want to race. Little did they know....

    BMW is a company of excellent, relentless engineers who really do a job with their cars. My dad owns a 99' 528i and I've driven it many, many times, taking it to the limit in empty parking lots, nice curves in the road, and straight out at lights. However, I was dissapointed when a souped up Z28 with some G daddy drug dealer in it out pulled me around 1 in the morning... Which is to be expected since the bimmer is only a 6; however, all that came to my mind while he was pulling away was : "He'd be cryin' if I had an M5" : )
    Congrats to all you M5 owners. It's a wonderful machine.
  • powerisfunpowerisfun Posts: 358
    You're right that the value depends on where you are. California, Texas, and Utah appear to be the states that value the Impala the most. But 13.5K for your friend's car still sounds way low. I wish I'd known about it. The only thing I can think is that either 1) it was wrecked or otherwise beat, 2) It was a Caprice made to look
    like an Impala (cloning is very common), or 3) The guy didn't try very hard and sold his car short.
    If it was really an unwrecked Impala in decent shape with only 55K miles, he could have easily gotten 18-19K on the NAISSO site. Heck, the Edmund's trade-in price is 16.1K.
  • powerisfunpowerisfun Posts: 358
    Thanks, I'll take a look. You're right 400 lbs is a significant difference.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    BMW and Mercedes have kind of shifted roles in some areas. In the not so distant past (old days) the Benz would have been the heavier car, but then again maybe not...the E was always the lean Mercedes of the family.

    M
  • jesseliujesseliu Posts: 41
    I totally agree. I think that Mercedes and BMW most definitely have started switching roles in some ways. Before Mercedes wouldn't use all the most fanciest gadgets and would wait til they were proven. Nowadays they are throwing everything in there.
    Also Mercedes are getting more sporty. I'm sure that eventually Mercedes will start offering a manual in some of their sporty models.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yeah they sure will. The new C240 V6 is going to have a 6sp manual standard. I would have never thought this a few years ago.

    M
  • xorbtantxorbtant Posts: 37
    Well he is not really a friend but an old guy at church I know. He is like 68 years old and was driving a (real impala). He didn't care about his car much and he just wanted a 300M, which I hate! But yeah he got 13.5k for his trade in and he was happy with it. I see impala's all over the road in FL and I don't see the big deal with it. Oh not to leave out that 90% of the Impala drives seem to have 100 spoke gold rims and systems. In other words, a lot of thugs or drug dealers drive it. I even asked a dealer why he chose his car and he said a lot of room for his banging and a quick get away car.
  • guys...why are u placing the A8 in those mid-size sedan category? the car is huge...if you look at the statistics, its bigger than the 7 series.
    the classafications go like this...3 Series (BMW), A4(Audi), C-class(MB), Lexus ES300. than comes 5 series, E-class, A6 , Lexus GS. And than At last come the big boys...A8, 7 series, LS400 , S-class.

    P.S.
    1)does anyone know when the S6 is going to come out in america...i read that its a 360 horsepower V8. looks like it more powerful and lighter than E55
    2) I heard that the 2001 is gonna have M5's engine
    (400 hp V8 with ALOT of tourge) can someone image...if a midsize cars with that engine goes from 0-60 in 4.8 sec...than how fast will that small sedan will go? (porshe C4 has a 360 horsepower engine and it does 0-60 in like 4.5 sec.)
  • kappamankappaman Posts: 47
    Even though I am more so a Jaguar guy, out of these super sedans I would probably pick the E55. The Jaguar XJR is nicer looking, the BMW M5 is faster and handles better, but the E55 will be more of a collectors items. It also looks good, handles well, is fast and probably will keep its value longer. It is a car you keep.
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