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High End Luxury Cars

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  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Let me know what pricepoints you get on the LX470. I'm also buying or leasing at the end of the year or in January. If you are still shopping then I'll let you know prices I am getting as well. In the meantime check prices and lease deals at LexusUS.com to keep your dealer honest on prices he gives you. It's a great suv with an LS430 like ride if you can believe a truck that big can ride so gracefully. The TLC may look like it but it lacks the LX refinement.

    By the way that site is being changed to fleetUS.com (I believe) and will also do deals on MB, BMW, Audi, Porsche and others in the very near future. So if you are shopping the other brands it is worth a check to keep your dealer honest.

    Lenscap - great posts as always. So the Celsior is a Lexus afterall. Believe me, some people around here will still not accept that. One question though - did Toyota have the v-12 Crown prior to 1990 or was it also introduced at the time Lexus was born. That v-12 has always been the rumored upscale engine for the LS. But the hybrid technology may blow it away. As well I believe the sports car in the link you posted is that V-10 super car that they are coming out with supposedly in step with the next GS.

    HPX - Super looking vehicle. I saw HPX and the Infiniti at the NY auto show and people were ga-ga over the HPX. It is far more sleek and lower to the ground than the Infiniti and much better looking.

    Syswei - thanks for the links.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    I had only looked at the front of the car on your link and didn't realize they give you an all around look. Obviously that is a 4 door car so I was wrong aboth the supercar and it may well be the next GS. I like it. If they are changing styles to a more sporty athletic look like that I'm quite interested to see what the next LS will look like.

    I haven't looked at the GS board in a while. You should post it there and see the reaction there unless you already did.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    I don't get the platform sharing bashing at all. It results in better cars, not worse ones, because it allows manufacturers to truly invest money where it makes the most difference. The tuning process turns shared-platform cars into utterly different cars anyhow.

    On the Bentley Conti, good luck, 'cause they're sold out well into '05 at this point. It seems to be the only one of the recently introduced supercars that is meeting/exceeding expectations. Awesome car, I saw it at the intro to the US market last year (or perhaps early this year? I forgot) in LA, and the interior is out of this world.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Posts: 112
    Saw this on the resale forum (post #14968) here at Edmunds, as stated by Terry, the resident oracle on that forum:

    Terry is a car salesman, and a darn good one too. Knows the market like the back of his hand. So I'd trust his statement here.

    -------------------------------------------------
    "Audi's are great vehicles, but that market dwindles when you ad miles to the equation, but some vehicles like Subaru's and Honda's the buyers go blind on the miles, if they are clean ... remember I don't make the market, I just live it ..l.o.l.... try selling a 01 MB S430 with 35/40k, it's like selling Chicken Pox ..

                          Terry.
    -------------------------------------------------

    Wow ! What would Boo20 say about the part on the S430 ?. I guess there ain't a waiting list for S-class afterall since they cannot seem to give them away after a couple of years of use, lol !
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    There is nothing wrong with creating a new brand, it just won't have the draw with some people who like all the heritage, image stuff. It was the brilliant move on the part of Toyota because nobody here would be paying LS430, GS, and SC prices for "Toyotas" in this country. They had no choice but to come up with a fictional name that they had to go to court to keep because it belonged to someone else.

    The ES300 started life as a Camry, and the IS300 is just a Toyota with a "L" on it for the U.S. market. The first generation ES, the ES250 was a Camry with a different grille and nothing more. A teacher of mine had one and it was about the worse rebadge job I'd seen outside of GM. How in the world could anyone think that the first generation ES250 was truly a seperate car is beyond everything automotive. The GS, LS and SC may have been purpose built as higher end cars, but they are still marketed as Toyotas in Japan...they're not Lexuses. These cars are just badged as Lexuses for U.S. consumption, for in Japan they are just upmarket Toyotas. There is no "Lexus" nameplate in Japan, yet.

    My point in bringing this up was that some here have tried to say that Mercedes' and Maybach's relationship is the same thing and it isn't.

    M
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Posts: 112
    OK, let's consider this scenario:

    Toyota Corp, a huge conglomerate based out of Japan, decides to expand their base into the luxury market. Decide on their intended target segments, and make elaborate and very strategic plans on what the future will be for this new branding. Then go out and execute flawlessly. Trouble is Toyota's brand in Japan is very strong, and hence cannot be diluted. Toyota's brand in the biggest car market, the USA, is that of a stodgy but reliable means of transportation. Nothing fancy nor luxurious about Toyota. So how about a new brand name they can build upon leveraging Toyota's strengths - reliability and value; package this with great luxury amenities, solid build quality and an exceptional customer service organization ? All recipes for success if executed flawlessly. Lexus begins life in the US. Platforms are shared to contain cost and push the cars out quickly. The Camry is rebadged as the entry level ES250. But they build from scratch the LS, GS and SC. Upmarket these within Japan and Asia as Toyota cos that's what the public out there identify with as a strong brand. Later, Toyota adds in the LX as a rebadged LC with a few frills and nicer interior amenities and more cushy ride. The RX, IS and GX come merrily along later.

    Now fast forward 15 years, and the home market has had plenty of time to adjust to Toyota's other brand - Lexus. And this baby has come of age and bested the best of the best at what they do best. The foundation for the future has been built from ground up. Now it is necessary to let this grown up loose to chart its own future.

    If I were Merc and BMW I'd be real worried about a *free-er* Lexus from the clutches of Toyota. Lexus has a deep pocket, a worldwide brand awareness, excellent market share and still growing, and now its own INDEPENDENCE to embark on its own future. Look out !

    And it all begins in the Summer of 2005 !!!
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I don't think anyone has disputed that as being exactly what they did. The only part that isn't totally accurate is the besting the best at what they do best. Not quite true, otherwise Lexus would have run Mercedes, BMW and others out of the market. Nobody bests the best at everything. Not even Lexus.

    M
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    I think when it comes to used luxury cars buyers almost expect low miles.

    As if the previous owner had another car to drive.
    In many cases this is true.

    I have spent a lot of time the last month looking at LS 400s on ebay and there are quite a few cars that have very low miles.
    Some that are averaging 7500 miles a year.
    And the occasional 5500 mile per year car.
    I am talking about 14 year old LS 400's that have
    65-80K miles on them.
    They usually sell above nada black book.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    tomshardware.com, endian.net, anandtech.com are some sites that (for intel/amd, don't know about apple) will spell out future product roadmaps
  • bmwsellerbmwseller Posts: 200
    I've taken a little heat here for suggesting that mercedes has damaged it's name brand for several reasons. One of the reasons that I stated was that DMX is now building MB's in china. Well, to my horror I read in todays AutomotiveNews that BMW is building 3's in china for sale in china and that they will also produce 5's there.
    Oops!! I guess it's a global community and a great car can come from south carolina, south africa or ........gulp, china.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Back in the 60s and early 70s "made in Japan" implied cheapness and not quality in most people's minds. Times change. The same thing will happen over time with China.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Found this link on another forum (it is a gray area as to whether I can name the competing site, per Edmunds policies, so I won't): http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?news/ae_news_story.php?id=40796
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    If they intend to rival the S and 7 with the GS where on earth are they going with the LS?? To the stars?

    That car looks and sounds awesome. That will be the last of any MB style copying we'll hear around here. Also is the HPX then slated as an upscale RX. That one confused me.

    It will also be very interesting to see what they do with the LX and how hybrid technology will affect gas mileage and power in that thing by 2006 or 2007. I guess I will lease the 2004 as the new developments at Lexus will be huge.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Yeah, the part about the GS rivaling the S and 7 we have to take with a grain of salt, being that it was reported by a trade rag based on the sort of marketing hype that can come out of auto shows.

    Mileage-wise, I get only 18-19 in mixed driving with my 99 RX, and much less (never calculated and there is no trip computer to tell me) in the 2000 LX, so I agree it isn't time to buy a new Lexus SUV with the hybrids 1-3 years away, depending on model.
  • fennfenn Posts: 197
    i_drive said:

    "i just drove home today, and while on the freeway, a shiny new 2003 silver Q45. i couldn't help but realize the resemblance between the Q and the Audi A4 (ONLY the rear tail lights). they have a similar shape and color."

    I too, saw that resemblance as a former Q45 owner, although I think it was probably coincidental. However, we need to be careful.... because there is a tail light conspiracy theorist on this board that thinks Lexus has been cloning Mercedes lights...Oops, I better not bring that up again!
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    I don't want to go there either but I saw the Honda you referred to a few weeks ago and the taillights on it are very Mercedes-like. In fact the whole rear had a bit of an SL look.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    syswei wants folks to see this post: jimxo "Lexus GS" Oct 13, 2003 11:11pm

    (I'm reposting for him because of a problem with his earlier message.)
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    Thanks for the kind words about my posts. I do not know when the Crown V12 was introduced. I'll see if I can find out.

    By the way, check out the link below for a look at the Crown Concept debuting at the Tokyo Show. After clicking on the link click on Toyota Booth Special Site (the big square in the center of the page). You'll see several cars moving around in circles - click on the silver sedan which is the Crown. It looks production ready to me.

    http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/event/auto_shows/index.html
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Yeah. It's actually a great looking car.

    Lenscap - That may have some of the look of the next LS. But it's not in step with the other Lexus styles shown which are supposed to take on greater uniformity so perhaps the Crown will stay on its own course. Time will tell. But it did state the car has been around 48 years so that answered the question.
  • There's a good write-up in a recent Autoweek about the long rumored new supercar that will appear as a Lexus at the 05' Tokyo motor show. The mid-engine low slung NSX, Ferrari, Porsche fighter will sport an all new V-10 with around 500hp and all wheel drive.

    Pricing will be near $100K making it the most expensive Lexus and Japanese car to date. Engineers were having vibration issues with the V-10 and have since resolved this the article states.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I notice that the "Crown concept" is a V6 ...I wonder why they're calling it a Crown. I also noticed it is shorter than an LS, though I haven't compared other dimensions, or checked dimensions of the current Crown.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I ran across this in autoweek.com (while looking for prattster's article):

    "Eighty percent of buyers ordered the Intelligent Parking Assist option, which is bundled with the car's optional DVD navigation system. The package costs ¥230,000, or about $2,100 at current exchange rates...The automatic-parking system...accomplishes the parallel parking function without input from the driver."

    They are talking about the 2004 Prius hybrid, but hopefully it will make it over here in the Lexus line. Sounds like an interesting innovation to me...or maybe MB did it first and I'm just not aware?

    The full article: http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- e=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=08721025
  • fennfenn Posts: 197
    I think that the first tone of the next generation Infiniti Q45 (although it may not be called "Q45" ) is starting to take shape under the code name of FUGA
    ...this is from Nissan news website

    Main Features of Concept Cars

    FUGA
    Proposing a new direction in luxury cars that are both sporty and roomy
    - Fuga’s styling achieves two elements of a sporty exterior and roomy interior without tolerating any compromises.
    - The FR-L Platform (FM Package), which is also used on the new Skyline, delivers superb driving performance.
    - Interior spaciousness surpasses all other sedans in this class. Fuga’s tall overall height that provides ample headroom, and legroom is expanded for rear-seat occupants.
    - The interior’s overall tone is unified in Japanese imagery and a modern design.
    - Human-machine interfaces (HMI) that are simpler and easier to understand and operate are located in the middle of the center console. Control switches mounted on the steering wheel reduce the driver’s workload substantially while providing multifunctionality.

    I am guessing that these ideas may appear in a 2006 Infiniti model.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,897
    A newspaper reporter is hoping to interview consumers who have had their auto insurance cancelled because they had a claim or a ticket. Please submit your daytime contact information and a few lines about your experience to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, October 22, 2003.
    Thanks,
    Jeannine Fallon
    PR Director
    Edmunds.com

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    The FUGA can be seen at the link below. It looks more like an M45 replacement than a Q45. We'll have to wait and see.

    http://press.nissan-global.com/TOKYO_MOTOR_SHOW_2003/EN/SHOW_CAR/- fuga_serenity.html#FUGA
  • bmwsellerbmwseller Posts: 200
    Camry means crown according to Toyota literature that I read when selling for toyota a long time ago. Maybe someone can verify this.
  • bmwsellerbmwseller Posts: 200
    Some have voiced comparisons/criticisms of the Pacifica and I wondered aloud how soon it would be before DMX would have rebates on them and start bending over backwards to get rid of them.

    Well, todays AutomotiveNews reports $3,000 incentive on Pacificas.

    Not that this is a luxury marque, I just know that they have come up in earlier conversations.
  • ksurgksurg Posts: 48
    Though traditionally taking a backseat to BMW and MB the new A8 may be groundbreaking. I've owned BMW's, MB's, Porsches and most recently an A6 4.2. This new A8 seems better and cheaper than the 745 or S series. Maybe BMW and MB have been sitting on their laurels for too long. It seems that the racing technology Audi developed in the last few years is trickling down the production line. Interestingly one of my German engineer friends suggested that Audi is the place to be these days and that BMW and MB have the reputation of being a little old school.
  • i_drivei_drive Posts: 35
    you know what? i completely agree with you. having driven the all new A8L several times, i have concluded that the Audi excells in performance, luxury, styling, quality, workmanship, and technology. if possible, i would rewind back in time and purchase an A8L instead of the S430.

    speaking of mercedes, i had the opportunity to test-drive the 2004 S430 and S500 with the 7G-TRONIC transmission. all i can say is "WOW." this is something to be marveled at. at first, i thought "well what could be the difference?" but believe me, it was so smooth that in my opinion, it is superior to that of the Lexus LS430 transmission (which is already the smoothest one I have ever seen) one of the things that I loathe about my '02 S430 is the 5-speed automatic, which I find extremely jerky.

    also new for 2004: it looks like Mercedes has replaced the a MERCEDES-BENZ product sticker on the lower right corner of the windshield with a new one, which looks much more modern (21st century), while retaining the "y Daimler" signature. a very small detail but I'm obsessed with the small details. ;-)

    also, I saw the new Maybach "50-something on the showroom. looks very impressive, and the price tag was over $350,000. i asked how many they've sold to date: 2.

    something quite amusing that i feel i must add: after test-driving the S500, i sat in a new 2004 E500 wagon. but after asking where was the third-row seat in the back, she said: "you know what? Mercedes forgot add the third row seat in the first 715 E-class wagons! when the people at the port opened the rear door, they couldn't find the rear seats!" so there is no third row seat and instead, mercedes supplied a black plastic crate (seriously resembling those pre-school milk-carts). i don't know how you could sit in those things (they look SO uncomfortable and small; i asume that only one person can sit in it).

    for some reason, I can only imagine Mercedes for doing something like this. i guess when the seats come in, the owners have to bring their new car back in to install them?

    and finally, after thinking it over, I have decided to keep my '02 S430 until next year when the new 2005 S-Class comes out. i just signed up on the wait list. can't wait to come out, but unfortunately, it looks like the S430 won't come back...
  • ksurgksurg Posts: 48
    Thanks for the input. I would love to buy or lease a Mercedes, especially one of the upcoming 2005 models but I need something sooner. I've gone through an interesting evolution when it comes to cars. What I have concluded is that you can't make a car that is everything to everybody. That is to say in my experience you can't make a full size sedan that offers the excitement of an all out sportscar. No matter how fast an E55 AMG is it won't provide the thrill I get driving my 996 C4S. By the same token a Porsche Cayenne can't duplicate the utility, towing capacity and payload of my GMC Yukon XL. So the question is for the money what is the best full size luxury "uber" sedan? Before you answer the LS 430 realize that I am biased towards German auto's( nobody's perfect ). Also it doesn't need to out accelerate my porsche in a straight line.
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