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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    So why Lexus-F models? I guess Toyota is continuing its tradition of imitating Germans again by offering special limited editions.

    What would you have Lexus do, not produce competitive vehicles?

    Lexus' strategy from now on is to move upmarket, take advantage of the name they've built, and charge more for it.

    Mercedes has been around for over a century. The question is not will Lexus do what Mercedes has done.

    The question is will they do it better?

    You act like you really don't want to know the answer.

    I hear Toyota is entering NASCAR....... :blush:

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I'm not sure if I misunderstood you or not...

    Do you think the LS460 or LS460L is the better comparison to the S550? Or doesn't it matter.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    That's not for me to answer.

    Many feel the LS is not competitive with the S regardless!

    The cars are 7 inches apart.

    Would MT editors pay the extra $28k for those 7"?

    C&D editors might, but the last time a SWB was compared, to anything, it won, and won, and won.

    Is price the most important criterion? Mission? Target audience? Performance? Amenities? Looks? Resale? Reputation? Image? Or the total package?

    Look at it this way. If the SWB LS460 were the same price as the S550, and matched it step for step in performance, like it did in MT, how would it be perceived? As better? Worse?

    The S550 has more features than a $67k LS460. But MT didn't really like the extra features it provided. And it didn't prove superior in testing, but had an "intangible" quality. Fair enough.

    The LS460 is $25k-30k less. How is it perceived now? Would Lexus shy away from a comparison? I don't think so.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    OK, Doc... I 'm good with all that. Makes sense.

    In some regard, I suppose anything could be compared with anything else.

    But now that the LS is available in the long wheelbase, I just feel that it serves as a better comp. That's all I've been saying.

    I understand you can theoretically compare anything with anything if you want, but the relevancy diminishes, IMO, if the models chosen are not as close as truly possible.

    But, I get your point nonetheless.

    :)

    TagMan
  • guestguest Posts: 774
    It really bugs Dewey and Hemi. :P

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Merc and Hp.

    DrFill
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The A8 driver's seat was better than the S or LS-comfortable but firmer. If I was shopping for a HELC (instead of a 335i coupe), it would come down to the BMW 7 vs the Audi A8.

    Yes I can see that. The A8's seats are firmer for sure.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The S easily bested the LS on breaking, but it probably was equiped with the right tires for the test (see break comment).

    Same tires as the C&D test. Didn't you read the article before posting it?

    One place that the tested LS blown the S out of the water is the Price as tested category.

    It should have, the car tested was a tweener SWB model still clinging to the entry-level rung.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Those LS brakes still do look disappointing. I wish the car mags would put identical brand/model tires on each car in a comparo.

    Never going to happen. Each make comes with the tires specified by the manufacturer.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Anything to make up for that C&D thrashing huh? Too bad the MT artcle wasn't a formal comparo and the LS model used was a SWB model. Did you bother to read what they said about the LS overall? It doesn't doesn't beat the Benz to become the luxury car champion or something like that. Try again doc.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Would you agree that the most appropriate future comparison would be for a LS460L vs a S450?

    Depends on the options and what not. For 93K the LS460L should be compared to a S550, not a S450. A S450 isn't likely to costs 93K unless you really go to town on the options.

    And for the S600hL vs (depending on where it is priced) S550 or S600?

    Why is that Lexus needs this crutch? If you're going to badge your car as a "600" then it should be compared with the S600, not the S550. Lexus claims to deliever V12 power with V6 MPG numbers then it should be compared with the best regular production S-Class, the S600. I don't doubt for a mininute that the LS600hL will beat a S550 in a comparo with superior power and better MPG, and hopefully better brakes.

    M
  • jl618jl618 Posts: 64
    The recent brouhaha C & D stirred up with their rankings simply reafirms for me that each of the vehicles profiled is a marvelous piece of hardware. Whether one chooses any of the five is probably 90% or more subjective.

    Before I saw the article, I asked my wife to prioritize what criteria she placed as the most important for her next car in the 60K plus price range.

    The first words out of her mouth were "The quietest, most comfortable, least expensive, best mileage, and most reliable."

    Thus, I read the C & D article attempting to guage my wife's priorities and it appeared to me that that the grading criteria needs some tweaking - sort of like the NCAA's BCS.

    I concluded after reading the article that If C & D's dB testing for noise is accurate, the LS 460L appears to be the clear winner in that category.

    No question on fuel mileage.

    It appears the LS 460L may have the most comfortable ride for passengers.

    If LS460 L reliability reflects that of past Lexus models it will lead the pack.

    If the LS 460 L can be had without the extra add-ons, it will probably be the least expensive as well.

    Unless the competition's navigation systems have vastly improved I would guess the Lexus will trump the others in that category as well.

    I would agree that the S550 and others clearly lead in handling/maneuverabilty, etc., factors that my wife could care less about. We do not live in an area requiring sports car handling.

    I'm not quibbling with the C & D rankings, but wonder if they chose to ignore several factors important to a large percentage of perspective luxury car owners.

    It will be fun testing them all.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    "Would you agree that the most appropriate future comparison would be for a LS460L vs a S450?"

    Depends on the options and what not. For 93K the LS460L should be compared to a S550, not a S450. A S450 isn't likely to costs 93K unless you really go to town on the options.

    "And for the S600hL vs (depending on where it is priced) S550 or S600?"

    Why is that Lexus needs this crutch? If you're going to badge your car as a "600" then it should be compared with the S600, not the S550. Lexus claims to deliever V12 power with V6 MPG numbers then it should be compared with the best regular production S-Class, the S600. I don't doubt for a mininute that the LS600hL will beat a S550 in a comparo with superior power and better MPG, and hopefully better brakes.


    Listen to yourself. You think the LS600hL should automatically be compared to the S600 because of the "badge match", even if (and we don't know this yet) the LS600hL can be had for the same or less money than the S550. Yet you refuse to admit that the LS460L should automatically be compared to the S450 (when available), despite the (near) "badge match" and the strong likelihood that it will be possible to put together similarly-priced configurations?

    Let's be consistent here. Either cars should be compared based on similar price or similar engine. We shouldn't choose price in one instance simply because doing so helps MB and then engine in another instance simply because doing so helps MB.

    Myself, I think the price criteria makes the most sense...and if comparably-priced configurations can be selected with comparably-sized engines, so much the better, and fairer the comparison. A moderately optioned LS460L vs a base S450 would therefore make the most sense as a comparison.

    What vehicle should the LS600hL be compared to? It depends on price.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Listen to yourself. You think the LS600hL should automatically be compared to the S600 because of the "badge match", even if (and we don't know this yet) the LS600hL can be had for the same or less money than the S550.

    Yeah it should. Lexus thinks it has built a Mercedes S600 level car then that is what it should be compared to if for bragging rights only. Now if they price it like a S550 then they'll be making sure that they don't have to face the S600. The LS600hL is Lexus' image car and their best so a "what if" victory over a current entry-level S550 would be weak at best.

    Yet you refuse to admit that the LS460L should automatically be compared to the S450 (when available), despite the (near) "badge match" and the strong likelihood that it will be possible to put together similarly-priced configurations?

    Darn right because at 93K in this last test their is nothing automatic about, it all depends on where the S450 is priced both base and fairly loaded. I'll give you that they're going to be more similar on price than the S550/LS460L are on average, but with the LS600hL I couldn't care less about its price. If you got the lugs to call it it a 600 and call out the German V12 establishment then that is what it should be compared with not the everyday V8s. Lexus themselves said that they have a V12 competitor.

    Why are we spending so much time trying to come up with all this "what if" nonsense? The S550 is the car here now and the LS460L as tested was only 10K less than the S550. Quit trying to use the S450 as an excuse and a crutch because it isn't here yet.

    Let's be consistent here. Either cars should be compared based on similar price or similar engine. We shouldn't choose price in one instance simply because doing so helps MB and then engine in another instance simply because doing so helps MB.

    Right, so lets stop with the imaginary comparisons to the S450. Ditto for the LS600hL. Neither are here or priced yet.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    all this "what if" nonsense

    "What if" "nonsense" is exactly what we heard from the germancarfan camp when in past years the LS430 beat the S430 in comparos. All we heard was how C&D "should have tested the LS430 against the S500".

    Yet by both of your professed current criteria (badge and price), comparing the LS430 to a S500 is less sensible than comparing it to an S430.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,863
    Excellent post that really gets to the heart of the matter. That is why the LS in always the sales leader and the Peoples Choice winner year after year after year.

    This MT comparo is the first true comparison of full production cars and it looks like the LS is still on top and destined to stay there.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Actually, they're still testing preproduction LS'. MT stated as much clearly.

    I'm waiting for a moderately-equipped production LS460L ($80-85k) vs a moderately-equipped S (mid $90's).

    The S maybe a slightly better performer dynamically, but factor in other important factors, luxury features, looks, ergonomics, ride, efficiency, and value, and the LS should STILL come out on top.

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I think she'll like the LS. Quiet, comfortable, reliable and efficient is basically all it does. Avoid things like the ML stereo and lounge chair, and the price should be pretty reasonable. The only NAV setup on par with Lexus is the one in the new Jag XK. I still dont get why Acura chose to abandon their excellent and easy to use touch screen systems for a BMW style knob that nobody seems to like.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Tagman-- you picked a perfect car with a perfect colour . For the price of a MB S65 I would rather buy two cars for that kind of money. A BMW M5(for doing more sedate things like shopping and driving the kids) and a Porsche 911 for my solo adventures. Then again a MB S65 is not about price is it? I guess that is why I cant understand a MB S65 because I always tend to look at price tags.

    Lexusguy--your Jag definitely blends the performance of a roadster with the luxury of a British cruiser. Unfortunately I am still fixated with third pedals and would never pick a two door without a stick. I guess you can say I am old fashioned or even better a boy racer in spirit( but not in terms of age).
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