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High End Luxury Cars

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  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    But I only got 4 percent off on my BMW335i.

    Worth every penny! They could raise the price on that car and it would still sell very well.

    TagMan
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    Sounds like you are the "hater", if not a bit of sore. What's with the stupid anti-Audi comments? Sounds like childish dig at best. Audi doesn't need Lexus and thank goodness they do not want to be one! Why would Audi lower itself a couple of tiers to match Lexus. As for not having any sizzle, last time I checked the R8 would fry any Lexus (as would any Audi)out there. It's fine if you want to discuss the merits of your favorite brand, but keep it unbiased ok.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yeah Dewey I may not win the E/5 bet. The E is selling better and better each month it seems, but a Denice William/Johnny Mathis song comes to mind "too much, too little, too late". Ah...sigh.

    I haven't give up just yet though, the results will have to be in before I do that of course.

    As far as this S-Class convertible is concerned I just don't believe it, and oh yes I will be there firsthand to see it and report back with pictures. :surprise:

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "Lexus owners sleep the sleep of the righteous."

    Well, thanks for the attempted conversion, but I will continue taking my chances with BMW; as close to heaven as a driving experience can be! :blush:
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Sword down for a moment.

    In reading the LS board I sense that some have decided to leave us again because there hasn't been enough praise of the new LS.

    In fairness, the review in which one compares the LS460L to the E63 AMG is bunk and not at all fair to the LS460L.

    Car and Driver's comparo while having some curious points concerning weight and having used a pre-production LS460L, is but one comparo. The only reason I and others hammered it is because this is the comparo that some banked on for a Lexus win or at the very least 2nd place and when that didn't happen, C&D is now (hasn't been in the previous 2-3 comparos concerning the LS) clueless or even more shockingly outright dishonest?

    I'm now reading that after all the years C&D was right on the money in placing the LS400 and LS430 models first, they've now fallen off and can't be trusted. I don't get this. Seriously, how is it that one can pick and choose which reviews are valid basely solely on whether or not they give the LS460 a glowing review or not?

    C&D clearly mentioned that the A8 was a 2006 model and that the LS460L was a pre-production model, but because they didn't shout this about the LS from the top of the page or in bold print they aren't to be trusted? Then you have the reasoning that they shouldn't have used a pre-production LS in a comparo, yet they've done it at least twice before. In one of the LS400 comparos years ago C&D stated that Lexus asked for the test as soon as possible and they (Lexus) supplied C&D a pre-production test car. If the car wasn't up to snuff then why turn it over to C&D for a comparo test?

    Edmunds reviewed the SWB LS460 and came right out and said that the S-Class (among others) hadn't been matched.

    The previous LS430 was an Automobile All-Star no? Now for 2007 there is a new LS and S and the S gets the nod. Why all of sudden is a magazine that recognized the supposed excellence of the previous LS not a viable judge of luxury cars now? Just because they dared pick a new S over a new LS? Help me out here?

    Forget the European reviews they aren't going to give a Lexus the nod of the usual German suspects. This stance I get because it is in part true because the Lexus doesn't have the dynamics of Euro spec versions of the S/7/A8. Now those who say these reviews are bunk do realize that the often times European spec BMW/MB/Audi models are firmer in suspension than U.S. spec cars?

    During the MT COTY competition they clearly state that the LS is a great car, but it doesn't meet or exceed the S-Class overall despite faults with both cars.

    I'm sure there will be other comparos from MT, Road and Track, Edmunds, and even Autoweek might do a head to head between the LS460L and S550 so of course the final verdict is still out, but if one can't see which way the evidence is leaning they simply are chosing to ignore the majority of that evidence. How could all these source be wrong and/or have something against Lexus when most of them (except MT) put the previous LS over the previous S before?How can this be called anything but denial?

    Why is so hard for the faithful to believe that the LS460/L didn't repeat 1989 (or 2001) when some of the previous LS strongholds have shifted?

    Doc, Houdini, 2001gs430?

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I agree with alot of what you said.

    It is sad that so many have left this forum for the LS forum. Despite the excuses one hears over there, I can't help but think that there are a couple of reasons that might be contributing, at least in some cases:

    1. The LS reviews to date have been mixed. Some good, some middling, some not so good. Maybe the comparo type reviews will change a bit once the comparison can be made to the S450 rather than S550, and/or once production units are tested. But for now, some lexusfans can't seem to take the heat. Some of them are simply in denial...leaving this forum is the equivalent of sticking their heads in the sand. I would bet that more of them would still be on this forum if the reviews and comparos were universally positive for the new LS.

    2. The sometimes (mostly in the past) uncivility that can take place here. Where people are just lambasted mercilessly at times, to the point where they are practially run off the forum. Stevekilburn comes to mind (and I think I was one of the guilty parties in that case). Not the most welcoming environment, when things are bad.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Excellent post.

    In fairness to the LS board, I would like to know which reviews THEY consider VALID, whether pro or con regarding the LS or S-Class.

    BTW, I, of all people, provided the LS forum yesterday with a re-post of one of the most positive reviews of the LS460 ever written. Barely got a thank you, except from cyclone4, I believe. Sometimes folks do indeed put the blinders on, IMO.

    This is the HELC forum, where cars can be compared. We are not just about Mercedes here, or BMW, or Lexus, so there are going to be more criticisms than on a board that is essentially about lots of stroking for a particular car. Heck, one contestant in the ring isn't about to get hit... but more than one, and there's bound to be some jabs of criticism.

    If this was a forum to only compliment the cars, and not look at their weaknesses as well, then I wouldn't be here!

    What the heck do they expect? I'd like an answer to my question, so I'll repeat it:

    In fairness to the LS board, I would like to know which reviews THEY consider VALID, whether pro or con regarding the LS or S-Class.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    But for now, some lexusfans can't seem to take the heat. Some of them are simply in denial...leaving this forum is the equivalent of sticking their heads in the sand. I would bet that more of them would still be on this forum if the reviews and comparos were universally positive for the new LS.

    The Lexus folks have had a very long and successful ride. It is quite likely that their LS460-Series vehicle may have hit a bump or two, and in addition to that, the Mercedes S-Class may be considered by most reviewers to be an overall superior vehicle.

    They are not used to this for quite some time, if ever, and letting a little air out of their balloon is not a bad thing, but it does take some adjustment and a good hard reality check.

    As more reviews come in, and head to head challenges occur, we will see an even brighter light as to how these cars stack up against one another. Either way, there will be strengths and weaknesses for ALL cars reviewed... and those weaknesses also apply to the LS460, whether they like it or not.

    I suppose one of the things that makes it harder for them is the way some of us seem to lick our chops and savor the moment. But, truthfully, I don't think we need to apologize for liking the outcome of the reviews. I, personally respect the LS, but truly enjoy the fact that the S-Class is very often being considered a superior car by many reviews. I hope in the final analysis that the S-Class is CLEARLY the better car. I admit this. So what? I still respect the LS, but I'm not going to wear blinders, that's for sure, or whisper my criticisms when there is an LS poster aboard.

    I also admit that I love the way Audi is getting the recognition it deserves, finally. And BMW, as a company, is starting to get even more exciting than it already was.

    Lots of good things, and they're not entirely about Lexus. I have no problem with that.

    TagMan
  • I believe I wrote a very positive review of the LS when I drove it at the "Taste". It is a very nice car indeed. I am as confounded as most of you are, as to why some feel the need to pick up their toys, and play in another sand box, when their hasn't been the proper amount of praise heaped on it by everyone. To each his own I guess.

    Drfill. I don't think anyone is "hating on Lexus". But this is largely an enthusiasts thread, and Lexus doesn't make cars [so far] that appeal to that crowd. [A very small market in America.] The fact that Lexus sells so well, but has a hard time doing well when compared in driving dynamics to it's direct competitors, is proof that the average American car buyer, buys on comfort, features, and reliability.

    I don't think most of us have a problem giving Lexus it's due where deserved. Build quality, reliability, ergonomics, resale, service, etc. But for Lexus to have a heritage of making passionless cars, isn't it a little weird to expect a website full of enthusiasts to love it, when they've basically made another passionless car? Isn't it a little childish to expect people to love it, and then leave in a huff when a small amount of people disagree with them. I mean, they have the whole sales #'s thing on their side, so why not just call us all crazy, and continue in the fun.

    Why must people be like politicians, and only have people around them, that mimic their opinion?

    Jeremy Clarkson isn't fond of Audi's, but I'm not going to stop watching Top Gear. It's a very entertaining, and informative show. [He's nuts for hating on Audi's though :P .]
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,770
    Merc, I hope that you are not including me in the ones deserting this board. I did say that I would be spending more time on the LS board but that does not mean I am leaving this board. I have so much wisdom to pass on that I need at least two boards. :)

    I notice many of the Euro regulars here are also posting on the LS board: Tag, HP, and others. There is much good info on both boards.

    So, no, I will be around to pull the rug out from under you from time to time and to make sure you don't get too carried away with that bloated, brake dust smeared, wallowing hog of an S class. :D

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    have bent over backwards in trying to make the HELC thread a more comfortable environment when the prodigals grace us with their presence.

    The "boycott" is something I would expect from a bunch of spoiled kids in summer camp.

    Magazines that were praised several years ago are now "rags."

    Human behavior can indeed be quite amusing! :)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I've finally chosen to join in.

    I knew it wouldn't be long before another Lexus V. The World hellfire started, and here it is.

    Some LS460 fans have opted to resort in trashing other premium makes simply because the car that is supposed to be the envy all over has not been received in the manner it should have been. There have been some problems:

    1). The MBZ S550,600,63: No matter how pricey this ride is, it will sell like never before. This car has the star power and people want it, which explains why the car is selling at full sticker(more in some places). No matter what premium marque comes along, none will be able to topple the 3-pointed star.

    2). The Value equation: To many, this car no longer represents the value that drawed so many to the vehicle in the first place. @ $64k w/mandatory opt. pkg, that SWB XJ8 and A8 starts to look very good for only a few grand more all the while offering more std. features in the process.

    3). Is it improved enough: For many, myself included, this car doesn't seem to be that quantum leap that the '95 was over the '94, and the '01 was over the '00. True, there are new gadgets galore, but the overall feel still screams Avalon all over again. The overall styling is not groundbreaking and different enough, as say, an IS. Then factor in the expanse of not-very-Lexus-like hard plastic surfaces and a few unliked powertrain quibbles, and it adds up.

    As I've said numerous times, this is not at all to say that the LS is not a worthy car. The LS will still for sure offer to it's customers what they've come to expect. But now it costs more to play.

    But that should not mean that some should divert to calling one of the best premium makes on the planet "a maker without sizzle". Some may say that fits Lexus vehicles very well...
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Regarding your last paragraph:

    Mildly amusing! :shades:
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    It's amazing. I've caught up on some of the comments here and many of you just don't get why people don't want to post here anymore. After reading thru some of these posts fresh it seems as if you're so caught up in things that you don't even see how the general mood is an attempt to be inciteful, condescending and arrogant. The board isn't aboput Helms or Helcs (whatever today's jargon is) it's about fighting and fighting dirty at times which is why I left. I posted here for six years and rarely did it get uncivilized or dirty but this year was an absolute joke and a travesty. Hence it was time to go.

    On top of that it seems that many of you are obsessed with the LS460 (far more so than any of us who intend to buy the car) and even more obsessed with finding any and every negative comment about it. I've actually never seen a group as obsessed with a car as this group.

    The mood swings from arrogance one day to trying to be nice and lure posters back the next. Except that what may be intended as a nicety actually comes off as self serving and pompous. I don't intend to offend anyone but take this post from tagman (sorry to cite you here) last night:

    "Well, just as Dewey shows us the more typical review, here comes one of those that reads like it was written at Lexus headquarters.

    link title

    I gave this little present to the LS forum. It ought to pump them up for a while.

    TagMan"


    I especially highlight this one:

    "I gave this little present to the LS forum. It ought to pump them up for a while."

    Tag - do you even realize how this comes across?? It reads like the posters over there are second rate and beneath you and the group of people here. I certainly hope that wasn't your intent but that's how it reads. That's a post I cite because it's so recent but in catching-up today there have been so many others.

    Syswei - there are things in life worth fighting to the mat about. Trust me as I'm as competitive as they come. But what car you intend to drive and what manufacturer produces it isn't one of them, at least not in my boook. These are personal decisions about what suits you and in many cases your spouse as well. I actually took my wife to drive an S550 two weeks ago and she was amazed at how dumb the whole computer interface was. Her opinion - don't even think about it and what the hell were they thinking putting this in a car.

    Merc1 - When that C&D review came out years ago I posted that who cares what they say. It was an auto rag before that LS430 win and it's been an autorag after. To test a preproduction car, a prior ear car and two current year models is absurd. Do you think CNET would ever test high end televisoions like that? If they did would anyone take them seriously. On top of that they should crosscheck their results. They actually rated the LS430 way way above the current car. if I missed checks and balances like that in a financial report my CFO life would have been very short-lived.

    Tagman - In answer to your question the only review that matters is my own. Cars are not like TV's. You don't need the professional guidance you seek in electronics with cars. First of all there are only a handful of competitive cars and secondly you can go drive them anytime you want to. I've driven the S550 and the LS460L many times already. Blindfold me and I couldn't tell the difference in the two cars. They ride, handle and feel the same to me. The only real difference I noted was a slight bit more power in the S which is completely obliterated by how poor and unfriendly it's interior ergonomics are. So no - not one review I read even matters. Most, if not all of of those reviews are by a bunch of folks who can't afford these cars and don't really know what the buyers of such cars are even seeking and they are based on something that none of the casr are - performers (save for the Maserati). Blatantly dumb. It's like asking a TV technician to tell you how good the picture is based on something that has nothing to do with picture quality. If I was buying a sports car I'd take reviews more seriously. So the only review that matters is my own because the cars are easily accessibe to test drive.

    Lastly the whole team concept thing is as big a turnoff as there is. Hate it, don't want any part of it and I'm sure it's a detriment to anyone that wants to join the board.

    So in closing my comments are meant to be constructive (so please don't take anythimg personal (and Tag I picked you because I know you can handle it in this group) and my advice is go back and read your own posts and see how they come across - from the eyes of others. I learned a long time ago that the best way to do a major business deal is to look at it from the other side. Maybe that's what is needed here.

    There - said my piece and hopefully answered some questions. Time to move on.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Tagman - In answer to your question the only review that matters is my own.

    You say that, but... As I read through the posts, including yours, sir, much of the discussion is actually about the merits of a particular review, and the problems with this other review, and what's wrong with this rag, and that rag, and how C&D this, and MT that, and that CNET is now the big thing, and how Edmunds messed up, and those posts go on and on and on and on and on and on. THAT is why, lj, I made the remark that you quoted me. You guys get all pumped up when there is a great review, and all critical of the reviewer when its not so good. Surely you must see that, and understand that it is obvious enough that it is bound to get poked at from time to time.

    I do not at any time endorse any personal hatred or personal disrespect whatsoever, and while you mention that something happened earlier in the year, I was not posting during that particular situation, and I do not know about it, as the posts were removed, as probably they should have been.

    While I see your point, let me assure you that with your intelligent perspectives over here, there would be a much greater balance anyway, and I believe that anyone reading these posts would get a truer perspective.

    That truer perspective would be a result of seeing ALL sides of a discussion, not just one or a limited few. If you truly want this forum to be a better place, then your presence and the presence of others would only help to make that become true, IMO.

    I am pleased to see you post here at all, even if it is to express your frustration with the bunch of us... the sorry group we all are, eh? ;)

    Anyway, post what you believe to be some more balanced views and the forum will then result in being more balanced, isn't that correct?

    Sorry if I offended you and any of the others. No harm was ever intended, and I do not believe anyone to be second-rate. I strongly believe that ALL views are valid, and I am quite certain you know that.

    I think I speak for ALL here when I encourage you and all the others to post your opinions here... they would be more than welcomed, and respected, I assure you!

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    If I do decide to leave this forum long-term, it's for greener pastures.

    As you have seen, I have no problem with being the lone LS-backer here. I'll stick up for the LS wherever I am.

    Leaving is not sticking my head in the sand, it's a matter of ROI.

    Coming here to fight for a vehicle that needs no defense probably isn't a viable long-term investment.

    Using these forums should be fun, and thought-provoking. The LS forum being ripped apart gave me a heavy dose of this board, which isn't advisable.

    My main problem is when Lexus LSreviews, surveys, sales, comparisons reflected Lexus pursuit of perfection for 10-15 years, it gets no respect here.

    Now when the media tries to take shots, and things aren't 100% positive, everyone here is pleased as punch.

    I know what this forums about, and I don't like it. :mad:

    The LS deserves much more respect, even admiration, than this forum affords. Audi gets more from a car that can't sell (A8), or haven't even started building yet (R8)!

    If the views here were even-handed before this controversial redesign, I'd respect the opinions here much more. But the disrespect has been consistent, and it bores me.

    Not looking to turn this into a lovefest for Lexus. The Horse is out of the barn anyway, since the LS430 could do no wrong, except here, where it got zero respect. Now a better LS is here and it's worse than before? Not buyin' what your sellin'. :confuse:

    Misery loves company. I'm not one to spend too much time in misery. Apparently, neither are Lexus owners.

    If Jordan has the flu, I'll take him over the Utah Jazz anytime. ;)

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The LS deserves much more respect, even admiration, than this forum affords

    Doc, look at it this way. ALL the other HELCs are European, except for the LS. The scales are tipped in favor of the Eurocars by the inherent nature of the cars we discuss.

    If you think the LS should get more respect, I strongly urge you and lj, and oac, and cyclone4, and others from the LS forum to post over here and balance things out. Read my post to lj, #22117, and you will understand my perspective on this.

    I KNOW you will agree that to achieve a greater balance of perspective over here, we need to see MORE, not less, posts that support and explain the virtues of the LS. Remember though, that these will come primarily form LS owners and LS admirers, not from Eurocar enthusiasts, and that's OK.

    I only wish I could make this point clearer, but I will just have to hope you understand it.

    TO the average HELC forum reader, he will ultimately receive a better and more complete view only if you and others post your views.

    Clear enough?

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Toyota Motor Corp. has concluded after a two-month review of its product-development processes that Toyota engineers in some cases may have rushed out products without conducting enough quality checks, such as building physical prototypes, as they should have, said Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe....

    "We are determined to build more physical prototypes" in the future to quell recalls and quality glitches, he added.

    According to Mr. Watanabe, Toyota also has decided to tap the brakes on its ambitious growth plans around the world after the study, which also reviewed the company's product plans for the next several years. The move was in response to mushrooming product recalls and other quality problems, he said....

    In order to improve the engineering and design of vehicles thus their quality, Mr. Watanabe said Toyota now has decided to delay product introductions in order to extend the allotted times it takes to develop products, and in some cases has decided to eliminate planned products altogether, while in some cases introducing new products that had not been in its original plans. He also gave the green light to a move to hire 8,000 engineers globally in part to help conduct more of those checks and produce more physical prototypes to assure vehicle quality....

    even as it slows down the pace of new product introductions, Toyota still wants to extend its business in "every segment (of the auto market) in every region of the world," Mr. Watanabe said in an investor meeting in Tokyo earlier this year....

    over the next 10 years. Mr. Watanabe won't divulge details, but around the world, he sees much of Toyota's growth coming from three key efforts: to transform its Lexus premium brand, a North American-only franchise today, into a more global premium franchise; to launch low-cost $6,000-7,000 cars in emerging markets around the world; and to develop commercial vans that would compete globally, including in Europe and North America.

    To fuel its expansion, Toyota has said it plans to sustain capital spending at unprecedented levels -- around the record $13 billion it spent last fiscal year -- over the next several years....


    source WSJ
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,770
    Lj, stick around and help out from time to time. I've got these guys on the run anyway and pretty soon it will be them running for cover.

    I can tell that Tag is beginning to weaken because I talked him into buying his wife a Japanese SUV.

    HP is beginning to like my mildly amusing anecdotes and I know that deep down he still wants that GS.

    Dewey lives in Canada of all places so we can discount his opinions out of hand. Though he is indeed a fine fellow.

    Blkhemi just has so many cars and so much money that he does't really care what happens. Being a Supreme Court Justice or whatever, just imagine what he has to go thru on a daily basis.

    And Merc? Well, he seems to be a decent enough fellow but he has been drinking that Kool Aid for soooooo long that he is never going to change...much.

    D-man is on the verge on becoming a full blown LS fan. Yes, I think he definitely has some potential.

    So, lj, stick around and we will all have some fun and maybe learn a few things. It's kind of fun to lose your cool once in a while anyway.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

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