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High End Luxury Cars



  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Dealer cost is irrelevent; nor is manufacturer cost.

    One more round with ya'... but I've got to go, OK?

    Actually, my wife purchased that first SLK, but sold it after just a month. Because the market was hot, she didn't lose a thing. BUT... shortly the market changed its mind, and those that paid UP for the car, lost out in the long run! So, the real dealer's cost and the real MSRP are important considerations afterall.

    Obviously we do not agree. The problem here is this: While I am not trying to make you agree with me, I think you are trying to "convince" me somehow that your point is "right" or something to that effect, or perhaps you are trying to change my mind.

    Let's just leave this where we do not agree. It will be easier.

    I believe that the MSRP is a legitimate point of reference. You do not. I believe that the dealer's cost is a legitimate point of reference. You do not. You seem to believe that the "selling" price is the only basis for comparison, and I while I understand the importance of "selling" price and "market value", I do not agree that it should be used in the way you are interpretting the Mercedes lease.

    THAT'S IT for now. Please respect the end of this particular exchange. Thank you.

  • Let's get this straight: you put forward the point that LS was able to outsell S only because it was substantially less expensive. Your proof for LS being substantially less expensive? MSRP.

    My point is MSRP does not necessarily correspond to real market clearing price.

    And your $110k example selling for $98k vs. another car that MSRP $99k selling for $98k is supposed to prove your point??

    Which of the two is better value subjectively to you is quite irrelevent. You just proved my point that difference in MSRP's may not translate into real life market clearing prices at all.

    Not sure how dealer cost even come into this picture. MB is providing lease subsidies, which obviously means lower dealer cost (in lease). dah. That's another argument for taking lease subsidy into consideration whether you personally lease or not. Once again. Thank you for making my point.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Let's get this straight: you put forward the point that LS was able to outsell S only because it was substantially less expensive.

    Which post did I put forward that point? And I'll check back with ya' later when I return.
  • My bad. Merc was actually the one argued that point. You only argue that MSRP is what decides market clearing price, or is it that higher MSRP is always better? ;-)

    Neither is true, for obvious reasons.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    My bad. Merc was actually the one argued that point.

    OK, I forgive you. Just don't let it happen again. ;)

    BTW, be aware that I understand and acknowledge "market value" and "market forces". I don't want to be boxed into some disagreement with you that infers that I don't understand them. I just don't agree with you that they are always the best bet to adhere to. It would be too much like "market timing" which has been proved to never work in the long run. Buy low and sell high is the old saying. Nothing wrong with that. If that is what you mean then we agree.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I can't believe you went round and round about that. You can call it MSRP or whatever the heck you want, but when people don't lease and they pay cash of finance then this leasing mumbo jumbo is irrelevent. Period. All the time we have to hear about what if scenarios when all you have to do is look back through this thread and you'll see that some of the actual buyers here have stated that price does make a difference to them because they aren't leasing. Why in the world this is so hard to grasp is beyond me.

    This whole line of reasoning about leases equalling things out for cars that used be anywhere from 10-25K apart is just plain BS when the buyer in question isn't looking to lease.

    No one here has ever said that a leasing doesn't open up the luxury car buying experience to more people all the while making more expensive cars attainable. Problem is this tired rhetoric about the LS and its sales being "best in class" has never, ever taken into account that not everyone leases. Who the hell cares what the "MSRP" is beyond a car's natural hot selling period, it does indeed become irrelevant after that hot selling period is over, but the fact remains that those who purchase with cash or finance did have to contend with a huge price difference between the LS and S in their previous generations. There is no amount of fancy schmancy leasing doublespeak around this fact.

    The popular assumption is that anywhere from 50 to 80 percent of the cars in this class are leased. Who knows if that is true because no one has ever presented any proof one way or another, but what about the possible 20-50 percent that don't lease. They just say "oh this car costs 20K more than this one, no big deal"? To even suggest that is absurd. Some can do this and some can't, but until we get the full breakout then..........

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I can't believe you went round and round about that.

    Happens every so often. To alleviate the pain I fantasize about having a root canal. Actually I think Brightness made some good points, however I agree with the Tagmeister about MSRP as a reference point.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I can't believe you went round and round about that. You can call it MSRP or whatever the heck you want, but when people don't lease and they pay cash of finance then this leasing mumbo jumbo is irrelevent. Period. All the time we have to hear about what if scenarios when all you have to do is look back through this thread and you'll see that some of the actual buyers here have stated that price does make a difference to them because they aren't leasing. Why in the world this is so hard to grasp is beyond me.

    Yeah... last time I do that... I had work I needed to do and never did it. :cry:

  • Lease incentive is fundamentally no different from finance incentive or cash discount or mail-in rebate. They are all incentives. All of them do matter. Don't tell me Tag would be interested in the $110k MSRP without the temptation of getting it for $98k. Heck, he would not even be interested in $109k, as his disdain for the $98k on the $99k MSRP shows. So we have established that the 10% cash discount matters.

    Now the next step. Say instead of the 10% or $12k cash discount, Porsche were to offer zero per cent financing for 5 years. Would that matter? How much is 0% for 5yrs worth in current cash terms? The current risk-free return is about 5%. For $100k principal in linear schedule over five years, that's about $2500 on average a year for 5 years, or $12.5k in total over 5 years. More or less the same as the $12k cash discount. In other words, the financing deal is just about as good as the discount. If Tag has to borrow at 6.5-7% from banks, the 0% financing from the mfr would be even better, by another 30-40%! or equivalent to $16k cash discount or so. So yes, financing deals do matter.

    Now the next step. Say Tag likes to keep his car for only 3yrs. The real life resale of the car is $55k. So Tag would be out $43k over three years if he pays cash (not counting opportunity cost of $98k over three years). Now if the mfr gives a 36-mo residual of $65k, what's a financially savvy guy like Tag gotta do? Still pay the $98k cash or pick up the nearly free put option? Do you think someone thinking about his money is going to go for $43k over three years or $33k over three years? For the exactly same car. To say that people don't care about this kind of saving is like saying $10k doesn't matter. How many people do you know are like that? That's why most Euro cars are leased nowadays.

    As to the topic on people prefer buying therefore do not acquire certain brands precisely because only lease deals are offered, well, that makes sense. It's like people who do not buy products with mail-in rebates because they don't want to deal with the hassle (yours truely included). However, just because there are people who do not want to deal with mail-in rebates does not mean products with mail-in rebates are automaticly sperior because they have a higher "price" at the check-out.

    On purchases as big as cars, the least expensive way of getting it has to be the measure used for evaluating cars' "price." While people may forget to send in a mail-in rebate of $25 or something, the amount involved in car purchses are just too big for advantageous purchasing method to be ignored. Insisting on using MSRP is like saying people don't care about $10k, $20k money left on the table. Insisting on people don't care about finance or lease deals is esentially saying the same thing.

    Ask yourself, if lease incentives don't matter, why do MB and BMW spend so much time and effort putting together the lease incentives? Why are they called "specials" and "deals"?? Why are the domestics offering "specials" and "deals" in the form of low-interest financing?
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    "And, of course, cars that are made well might also be marketed well, and cars that are made well might be marketed poorly. "

    I know this is about Lexus and Mercedes, but that last line was directly related to Audi. Their products are fantastic in every area- but they're marketed poorly. Their sales are gradually improving, but gradually just isn't fast enough. Thankfully, with the shuffle of heads at Wolfsburg, Johann de Nyschen or whatever (the VP of Audi America) is hiring a new ad company. I have noticed an increase in magazine advertisements and commercials, however. But they need more. The S6 ad that I keep noticing only pops up in the middle of magazines. Be like Jaguar and the beautiful new XKR- pay a little extra to get it right in the front, where people notice!

    Just my two cents.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    that last line was directly related to Audi.

    Yes, lots of chatter about Lexus and Mercedes, but I was actually thinking of Audi as I wrote that. We are in total agreement.

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243

    I dont get it? The marketing of Audis truly sucks here in N. America but the marketing of Audis in Europe and Asia are truly effective?

    I can almost hear those European accents across the ocean saying" those people at Audi certainly know what they are doing in terms of marketing their cars successfully". I remember during my visits to Europe and Asia seeing some very entertaining and interesting Audi ads on tv and billboards. Apparently Audi uses different ads in N. America than elsewhere because they feel we are different. But we may not be that different after all. Unfortunately I have never seen those Audi ads here. What a shame.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Thanks, dewey.

    That museum will be enough reason for a trip to Germany! It sounds incredible. Actually, I have a very slim chance I might get to go there next Summer, and a visit to the Porsche factory would be memorable. I've never seen it.

    BTW, I remember we all read an Audi top brass interview where he said that Audi was going to work on their U.S. image. I remember reading remarks about increasing their exposure in films, as well as even the possibility of increasing prices where appropriate. What that all means to me is that there is at least an awareness of the problem by Audi. That's a start.

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Here is that new Porsche museum. I deleted that prior post becasue I wanted to combine that museum link with a news story about Porsche but right now I am too tired to find it? Anyways maybe I will find it tomorrow?

    link title
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    I am only copying a statement that has been made by others against other makes on this blog itself. As one of the very few Audi enthusiasts that posts here once in awhile (as this a hostile blog for Audi enthusiasts from my previous experience) my post was not meant to derail another brand, but to point out that ridiculing someone for their choice of HELM is not in the spirit of this blog. Numerous times I have been attacked by certain bloggers because I supported Audi. Considering the global status of Audi this is a bit much.

    As I have driven the Lexus, only out of curiousity, I respectfully disagree with the above analysis. To me Lexus is bland, the handling uninspired, the interior and handling not anywhere near Audi levels, and the brand passionless. However, I respect those that find the brand exciting for themselves and more power to you to enjoy and experience what you like. As a owner of A8L W12, I cannot fathom myself driving a Lexus (a bit snobbish on my part, but I do not aspire to it). I want my cars to be exciting when I drive them and with a history of substance. I can see myself in an S600 or a Quattroport or a Bentley. My new S6 gives me the driving thrills on a daily basis, and the many made up excuses to go to the grocery store when I do not need to.

    Gizmos are good for marketing, but they have to have purpose in the overall execution of a vehicle. Just to add it there for the sake of adding something doesn't really win me over. Plus, the Lexus along with the S600 are new, while the A8L and the 7-Series are do for remodel in '08. So I am sure they will add plenty of gizmos and more then, though they have plenty now.

    The A8 is one the best in the HELM considering all the allocades it has won globally, so to dismiss it is ignorant. Just like dismissing any other HELM.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I think Audi needs more exposure too. Autospies has just posted something on Audi and how they sell in different regions, a few snippets:

    The Chicago consumers pushed Audi sales up 32% for the month of November, and showed increases across all model lines as well. The A3, A4 sedan, Avant, and Cabriolet, the A6 sedan, and the A8 model lines all posted sales increases of 58% or higher. The A4 sedan and Avant models each had increases of over 120% from the previous November.

    New York, Audi’s largest market, posted an increase of 21% for the month. The A4 sedan had the largest increase for this region as well with 582 sales, a 33% improvement.

    Full Article

    It seems that Audi does well in major markets like Chicago, L.A. and New York, but I've always maintained that Audi needs more dealers in all those "other" areas where MB/Lexus/BMW where they form the usual "dealers row".

    I know we've all been over this a 1,000,000,000,000 times, but I think Audis' biggest problem is their connection to VW. I've heard it too many times that Audis are just expensive VWs or vice versa. It doesn't help that VW adopts similar styling cues (grilles for example) or that VWs cost Audi money in a lot of cases. The two need total seperation in marketing and design so much so that it is clearly visible to even the most clueless of buyers.

  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    You're entitled to your opinion, just as the 24-year old is entitled to his. Just FYI, I'm not as anti-Audi anti-German or pro-Lexus as it might sometimes appear. The LS is still probably the lead candidate for my next sedan, but also on the list will be the S, A8, 2008 7 (if AWD)...I am going to decide something once the LS460 is available AWD (or maybe sooner, if it looks like Lexus is going to be too slow in bringing it out).
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Whenever I am getting close to assuming a new lease, I always negotiate the best price of the car I can get, which will be somewhere between dealer's cost and MSRP, as if I was buying the car. All other things being equal, it is the key to obtaining the lowest monthly payment.

    I always run my own numbers (combination of lowest selling price, highest residual %, lowest money factor available, which is the loan rate) and pit many dealers from my state against each other to get the best deal possible.
    This way I obtained a monthly payment of about $200-$300 less per month for the same car as some other folks are paying according to my spot checks of over the past year.

    As far as BMW is concerned, add the 4 year free maintenance, plus the $500-$1000 rebate from BMWCCA I get back for each new leasing deal and the incredible residual percentages and money factors (loan rates) from BMWFS (like 72% and 3.4%, respectively) and I have found a method for driving some of the best cars out there with some frequency for dirt cheap
    ( borrowing at 2.4% in my case), without the hassle of having to try to dump them, trade them or repair them.

    No. I would never buy. Having too much fun leasing which should increase quite a bit once I implement the hpowders 24 month lease program. :blush:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Plus, no money down except the usual fees. :shades:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    OK now I finally found the Porsche news item I was looking for. A Porsche Diesel. It's definitely a beaut! For more info link below:

    Porsche Diesel
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