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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    your really starting to sound like the Lexus crowd talking about sales all the time.

    Thats hilarious because I'm not the one that brought up sales in the first place. You tried to imply that because MB sells more cars that they are somehow of lesser taste than Audi. Secondly, you tried to imply that Audi has some type of exclusivity. Neither statement has any basis in reality. The latter is really funny because Audi's so called exclusivity isn't something they want or stumbled upon by accident. That is a typical GM rant. Slow sales, not limited production or specialty status, equals exclusivity. That is the grandest excuse (label) for lesser sales in the book. So if you want to turn it around like I'm in the one hollering sales in reply to everything then go right ahead. Anyone reading the thread can see and knows better. Now if Audi sold more cars we'd hear a different tune wouldn't we?

    You failed to address the fact that Audi is right up there with (and ahead of in some markets and segments) BMW and Mercedes in some European markets. Does that make them somhow less tastesful purchases in Europe? Or does this not matter because we live if the good ole U.S. of A.?

    What you said was the Audi is down on performance to the other two. Once again, sounding like a Lexite that doesn't consider handling. The track proves this out, not some metro sexual lane change. The Benz is out braked, and out handled.

    And what you said is that the Benz can't handle or take a corner which we know is bunk. If anyone is sounding like someone from that camp it is you, chosing which comparo to hang your hat on and calling the others (that don't put your S6 first) suspect. That is pure Lexus. Period.

    If you can't get the point of the figure eight, then wow, kind of like the Lexi can't grasp a turn.

    Likewise if you can't see the point of an emergency manuver then you're on the same boat, different deck. Like I said before both tests are measures of how a car handles/behaves? Are you telling me they aren't? Classic case of picking and choosing the criteria that puts the fave in the best light possible while dismissing any other measurements that doesn't. Again who does this? Hmmmmm..

    I guess we'll agree to disagree. I just hope your next argument isn't that the Cayman is down on power to the CLK, thereby outperformed by it.

    Likewise I hope yours isn't that Audi buyers somehow have more taste than MB buyers. Oh wait you already implied that.

    Let me know when they drag race the Benz, I'll be napping. [along with the drive]

    Nah, your Audi wouldn't be able to keep the Benz in sight.

    Most of your arguments about the Audi and its better handling are valid, but this about the Benz not being able to handle when the differences are not that great is the specious part. Where all of it is coming from is beyond me.

    M
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    Your statement was that the Audi was "outperformed" by the Benz. All you have in that argument is acceleration, and a, wait for it, lane change test. So you, by your own admission, are touting acceleration as outperforming the Audi.

    Specious? The lane change test, that's specious of you to tout that as outperformed.

    You brought up the sales with that tired, Audi wishes it had the sales of Mercedes, BS.

    A lane change test? Are we allowing soccer Moms to chose the testing criteria?

    Now look who's picking criteria from what helps the argument.

    Are you going to the Detroit show? I'm jealous :blush: .
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Your statement was that the Audi was "outperformed" by the Benz. All you have in that argument is acceleration, and a, wait for it, lane change test. So you, by your own admission, are touting acceleration as outperforming the Audi.

    So acceleration isn't part of peformance now? It is most certainly part of the overall picture.

    Specious? The lane change test, that's specious of you to tout that as outperformed.

    Likewise you're touting a figure 8? Something that no driver is ever going to do on the open road, but I'm guessing now you're going to tell me that you have. But, but, you've never had to swerve to avoid something right?

    You brought up the sales with that tired, Audi wishes it had the sales of Mercedes, BS.

    Actually I said more sales, not the sales of Mercedes per say. I only mentioned sales after you tried to affix that tired and untrue "exclusivity" label/excuse to lackluster sales. I most certainly did because when a car company openly states that they want more sales are rapidly expanding their model range to fill niches left and right and someone mentions "exclusivity" it sends the BS meter in the red. The bottom line is that Audi wants more sales otherwise they wouldn't be expanding their lineup from xxx many models now to xxxxxx many by 2012 or whatever year they plan to sell a million cars a year, uh....like MB and BMW do. Poof, there goes your "exclusivity" and to think it was of Audi's doing, on purpose.

    A lane change test? Are we allowing soccer Moms to chose the testing criteria?

    If only they'd dare attempt an emergency manuver at 60 milers per hour.

    Now look who's picking criteria from what helps the argument.

    Yep, like I said before we're on the same boat, different decks. I unlike you though don't nearly look at the Audi in such a bad light as you do the Mercedes. I like them both.

    Are you going to the Detroit show? I'm jealous

    Yep, I'll be there opening day!

    M
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    You got me, the Benz outperforms the Audi. The lane change test, and the blistering acceleration is enough proof for me.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Without gap insurance, leasing would just be the same as buying in the event of an accident. Sure you'd be on the hook as the lease holder in an accident without gap insurance, but you'd equally be on the hook if you already owned the car (or borrowed and therefore now upside down even after regular insurance payment); in other words, you'd be fully on the hook for the whole car the moment the check for the full car was cut. If an accident takes place within a year or two, and the insurance company pays less than what you paid for the car (or borrowed for the car); you are already paying for the bad luck and lack of gap insurance at full face value. In any case, gap insurance policy underwriter makes a profit, too; so the expectation value of early accident is apparently quite low. If one really hates the co-variance, leasing with gap insurance is a huge advantage; buying is like the accident already happened, and no gap insurance is there.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    First off, BMW has to get its act together with their performance formula with the M5. A high-revving V10 is not what the car needed in addition to the sack of electronic tricks. I could see how anyone would be turned off by it especially since the E39 M5 is still on my must-have list. It’s despicable that this car, a BMW mind you, which weighs substantially less than the other two, and which has a 6-speed MT can’t cruise to a first place finish. How the heck they had the temerity to put the same transmission as the old M5 in addition to not being able to disable DSC is beyond me. I’m thinking this had to do with to things. Number one, they have an agenda with SMG and they probably didn’t want to upstage it. The second thing is that the car wasn’t designed for a manual transmission to begin with and it might have taken more time to design and produce it accordingly. I was down on this car to begin with and the manual version does nothing to improve it in my mind.

    With regard to the S6. Sure it’s a pretty good looker in and out, but did it need a V10 to pull a 5.4 second 0-60 in addition to those other split times? It’s a sad day when a heavy car like this with an extreme front weight bias beats the flagship BMW performance sedan. Maybe a lot of this has to do with that C&D crew also, who as dhamilton mentioned often winds up yielding poor performance results in comparison to other rags. It scores nicely on price and the merits of its steering but I’m not so sure its handling deserves raves.

    Enter the E63 AMG. It’s easy to see how it could win by default. I’ll borrow a cliché from the sports world—it seems they made the fewest mistakes. They always had a good engine formula for luxury car power and they tweaked the engine toward the sport side. Throw in the improved suspension and there ya go. The MB’s airmatic suspension and monolithic power obviously were enough of a one-two punch to get the job done.

    Another MB winner. I really don’t see where there is much room for complaining about it, at least on paper. Maybe if I drove all three of them I would have a different opinion. But we are car yentas here thus we don’t always get the opportunity, especially with this trio. Has anyone else done so? Heh, heh, commence yapping.

    Pick a little, talk a little, pick a little, talk a little
    Cheep cheep cheep, talk a lot, pick a little more!


    ;-)
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    With regard to the S6. Sure it’s a pretty good looker in and out, but did it need a V10 to pull a 5.4 second 0-60 in addition to those other split times? It’s a sad day when a heavy car like this with an extreme front weight bias beats the flagship BMW performance sedan. Maybe a lot of this has to do with that C&D crew also, who as dhamilton mentioned often winds up yielding poor performance results in comparison to other rags. It scores nicely on price and the merits of its steering but I’m not so sure its handling deserves raves.

    Each of the cars I think has a different buyer in mind. The M5 is a track day car. Thats where the SMG actually works. Its not really a daily driver. The old M5 could do both, so I guess that's where BMW screwed up.

    The S6, while down on power compared to the others, is a great all rounder, as are most Audis. Track performance may not be up to the M5, at least in the dry, but it will hold its own and beat the Mercedes.

    The Benz is a road rocket, for flying down the autobhan at 180mph. The E will certainly do better than an enormous car like the CL65 on a track, but the regular Es are the least sporting of the German trio, and I don't think AMG treatment changes that.
  • Just came back from a Boston to Montreal weekend trip driving a '89 Bentley Eight. The car was in impeccable condition with 200K on the clock. The big Bentley's handling was superb with a great interior even after almost 20 years and classic good looks. I had a look at the suspension components and they look like they belong on a 3/4 ton pickup: beefy and pre-cad cam rugged. Sure the car has had good maintenance over the years but it drove like it was almost new and purpose built for this kind of trip. We cruised at 85 MPH down the Vermont-a-bahn with tight rack & pinion steering and impressive pre-zenon driving lights that cut through the drizzle like C130 landing lights. The Goodyear Eagle LS's ran well and quietly. They are a police pursuit tire with the required load and speed ratings. The original Avons are now too hard to find and expensive in this unusual 255x65x15 size. The only hint that the car was this old was the abysmal sterio. Its unfortunate that a guy couldn't buy an S550, maintain it with Mobil1 and some TLC, and then expect to get the same 20 years of trouble free life out of it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Its unfortunate that a guy couldn't buy an S550, maintain it with Mobil1 and some TLC, and then expect to get the same 20 years of trouble free life out of it.

    Who wants the same car for 20 years? The idea of keeping anything other than a house for that long is so 20th century.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I just returned from those ten days with the wife's relatives, and I'll admit it's GOOD to be home again.

    My father in-law drives a pickup truck, and at some point during a conversation, he mentioned that he never uses cruise control because it wrecks his gas mileage. I just nodded and smiled, but quite frankly, there is no way that makes sense to me. I've always thought that cruise control is primarily for convenience and not mpg's, but that it likely offers a steadier throttle and therefore improved mpg's anyway.

    If anyone here knows how cruise control can wreck gas mileage, I'd sure like to know.

    BTW, I saw the pics of the Mercedes "ocean" drive 4-door and then I saw those pics of a Chrysler 300C cabrio. But then I saw some kind of MB called a CLR600? Is DC suffering from an identity crisis or something?

    Also... What's going on at Toyota with a new good-looking FAST hybrid sports car for only $30K? Is this thing for real?

    I also read that Porsche will bring direct injection to its 911 next year. Of course they deliberately waited until I bought the '07 to offer it on the '08.

    Good luck to merc at the Detroit show... lucky guy.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You got me, the Benz outperforms the Audi. The lane change test, and the blistering acceleration is enough proof for me.

    It is the assertion that a AMG Benz (especially the E63)can't handle is what I have a problem with. I have no problem admitting the Audi handles better per the the MT test. That is what they found. Which is more important, more speed or better handling? Either way the M5 doesn't own this class anymore.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The Benz is a road rocket, for flying down the autobhan at 180mph. The E will certainly do better than an enormous car like the CL65 on a track, but the regular Es are the least sporting of the German trio, and I don't think AMG treatment changes that.

    True, but the thing is the differences are so small after the E's transformation from "55" to "63". This about it not being able to handle is just absurd. There is no way C&D would rave about its handling and agility if it weren't so, considering how quick they are to flunk a car based on handling.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Its unfortunate that a guy couldn't buy an S550, maintain it with Mobil1 and some TLC, and then expect to get the same 20 years of trouble free life out of it.

    Why couldn't someone do that if they wanted too? Your Bentley friend is most likely putting everything under the "maintanence" rather than the "problem" category, especially with a Bentley from that era.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Number one, they have an agenda with SMG and they probably didn’t want to upstage it. The second thing is that the car wasn’t designed for a manual transmission to begin with and it might have taken more time to design and produce it accordingly. I was down on this car to begin with and the manual version does nothing to improve it in my mind.

    It was all of those things and that they aren't selling it in Europe so the volume isn't going to be too big so they weren't about to spend a whole lot of money to do it "right". An extremely rare case of BMW half-[non-permissible content removed] doing something.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    The car may feel okay to someone who appreciates the fact that it carries a Bentley badge on the outside. For someone who does not care about cachet, it's doubtful so much weight riding on 65 series 15" tires makes the car any more comfortable in reality than a Lincoln Towncar or even a new Crown Vic.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    image

    image

    Rolls-Royce Phantom Drophead Coupe

    Some of the details of the build/craftsmanship on this car are just sick!

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Some of the details of the build/craftsmanship on this car are just sick!

    I would certainly hope so, for the amount of money involved.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I would expect no less from a BMW affiliated company. :shades:
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    I get ya. My "extreme" statement followed your. "The Audi is outperformed" The Benz handles nicely, I'll give you that, but it doesn't outperform on anything other than acceleration. Cool?

    Bottom line, "the M5 doesn't rule the segment anymore" I agree.

    LG, yeah, the rules are going to change when the new MLP platform pushes all that weight back.

    RS6, I hate being a "wait for it" guy, but the RS6 is going to be one ridiculous piece of kit.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    (7) If I were to take that 328i deal, it would be about 1.5% of my monthly income.

    Glad to hear that a Lexus supporter doing well financially. :)
    I will be consulting you regarding lease vs buy for my next car acquisition later this year :D
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