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High End Luxury Cars



  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    I could not have said any better. Nicely said!
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    HELC cars are for "riding" in. It's oxymoronic to "drive" a HELC car for its track performance.

    Well... since you are the (oxy)moronic expert around here ;) ... let me just say that I never went so far as to include "track" performance in my post... but just the same I will make it clear to you that, in my humble opionion, it is not unreasonable or unrealistic for a buyer, or anyone for that matter, to consider performance when comparing the different HELCs.

    There are distinct performance differences between the cars in this segment. The Maserati as contrasted with the LS, for example, or the upcoming Porsche Panamera bring the reality of performance considerations to the HELC arena. Sure, it is quite obvious that the importance of the "ride" is of high significance in this segment, but to largely dismiss performance is absurd, IMHO.

    I still believe that some of the cars in this segment are better for their "ride" than others in this segment, and some offer a better "drive" than others in this segment. I stand by that and you will have a very difficult time to change my mind. I would venture to guess that probably all or most others in this forum would agree with me on this one.

  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    ...and yet this not even the new RS6 yet set to debut next year. Now that will be interesting.
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    When you first started to post---particularly about Lexus raising the price---I thought you to be wrong....Now that Lexus has taken your advice, I still think you both to be wrong BUT I have grown to really respect your knowledge about buying or leasing a car....I hope you will , along with hpowders, help me when I get a chance to get the next one.....Tony
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Anytime I can be of help to you Tony, just let me know.

    I am quite sure you are enjoying your wonderful A8, as well you should.

    I have been possibly thinking of a diesel vehicle as my next one as I continue to read amazing reviews of the Mercedes Bluetec system as well as the BMW diesel system too; but some quick searching, to my dismay, shows my nearest ultra low-sulfur diesel fuel station at about 20 miles away. I also notice that some distributors are charging about 20 cents more for diesel fuel than premium gas, so this offsets some of the amazing mileage gains. Unless the diesel fuel situation improves within the next 14 months or so in my area, diesel will be a no go for me.
    I am watching the situation attentively. :surprise:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    To lease a HELC or to not lease a HELC, that is the question?

    So your argument based on a BMW lease deal is that a person who leases ends up paying only about 8 percent MSRP annually (18 percent /27 month lease term) with no worries of repairs and additional expenses.

    And that poor buyer who keeps his car until it is an old clunker will end up paying as much money or in fact even more money (maintenance, repairs, depreciation) than what the lucky lessee pays for driving spanking new cars ( leased every two years or so).

    Sounds great, sounds wonderful! In fact you are stirring a great amount of lease excitement among forum members here. I mean in all honesty who would not be excited about leasing based on your description above?

    Unfortunately when something sounds too good to be true than it is too good to be …well I guess you know what I am going to say next.

    First of all your view is based on two assumptions which I disagree with:

    1) If you want to do a buy-lease comparison and compare apples with apples than you should use 26% of MSRP versus 18 % MSRP for 27 months. Why? Because if a car is offered at 92 %capitalization than a purchaser should be able to negotiate a discount of at least 8 % if not more.

    2) You assume that during 8 years of ownership resale value will equal post-warranty repair/maintenance costs. That is a very big assumption indeed especially with the 35% reale value of MSRP that I realized with my 8 year old BMW Also I may add the maintenance was quite low for my old BMW. But you raise a good point that not all owners will realize such a high resale value and be confronted with minimal repair/maintenance costs. But I find it a bit of a stretch when you assume that resale will equal all maintenance costs. That is quite a negative assumption and will make the lease look unfairly more compelling than a purchase scenario.

    Having said that let me point out why I think lessees with new cars and no repair worries and no extra expenses is not financially better off than a car purchaser who keeps his car for many years. In fact a lessee is far worse off.

    . Based on those BMW figures (Syswei’s Dec. 19th post in this forum) a lessee is paying approximately 12 % annually (( 26 %/27months) X 12 months) of MSRP a year . The brunt of that cost is depreciation. Lease a new car and the annual cost remains at a hefty12 percent. Keep a purchased car for many years and the depreciation declines every year as a percentage of MSRP.. In five years the car buyer will be faced with only about 5 percent depreciation while the lessee will continue paying 12 percent MSRP. In 10 years a car owner will be faced with about 1 percent depreciation while the lessee continues paying 12% MSRP on his lease.

    In otherwords the poor lessee ends up frittering away his money for the priviledge of leasing while the lucky purchaser’s ownership costs decline.

    Oh yes of course the lessee does not pay repair costs. BUT based on a US Survey the highest cost of car ownership is depreciation. Maintenance and fuel costs were miniscule when compared to depreciation. And unfortunately it is the lessee and not the buyer (assuming he keeps the car for many years) that is exposed to the hefty cost of depreciation .

    And what if the lessee drive 15000 miles a year (not highly unusual)?. In that case the lessee will end up spending $1000 additional dollars a year. OUCH!!!. At least a car purchaser’s depreciation will decline as he continues adding mileage to his odometer.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "To lease a HELC or to not lease a HELC, that is the question?"

    If depreciation be the food of leasing, deal on; Give me excess of it! :shades:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I'll hold you to those statements my friend.

    I am sure the specs of the new RS4 will be far more impressive than the current RS4. But specs dont mean much when the weight of the new AWD RS4 bogs it down. Edmunds has shown that even a BMW 335i can almost tie the current RS4 in 0 to 60 performance:

    We almost beat the all-powerful 2007 Audi RS4, too. Despite a 120-horsepower advantage and all-wheel-drive launch superiority, it just nicked our 335i's 0-60 and quarter-mile times by a paltry 0.1 second each.


    If the modest and humble 335i can accomplish the above I can assure a 400HP BMW M3 will make toast out of a 480hp RS4. Price-wise there is no way BMW is going to raise M3 prices so steeply. That would definitely turn-off many potential customers and the marketing wizards at BMW know that.

    So why dont we make a gentleman's bet in order to prevent the risk of either of us having to munch a brochure. ;)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    You don't win the other bet, at least not yet. For a brochure to be printed that means the car is in the production in a showroom for sale. Not yet!

    I just hope it wont be a glossy brochure with very hard edges :P
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    wouldn't be so sure about that. BMW's performance car track record lately has been very hit-and-miss, while Audi is knocking them out of the park.

    BMW's performance car track record has never been perfect and it wont be in the future. But what I do know is that the new M3 will have to be substantially better than the BMW 335i and that is going to make it a benchmark performer.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243

    no sport sedan no matter how small and nimble and fast can compete with your new Porsche.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    DEARBORN, Mich. (AP) - Ford CEO Alan Mulally said he respects Toyota and its luxury brand, but that he canceled his order for a Lexus LS......

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    If depreciation be the food of leasing, deal on; Give me excess of it!

    Hey, Powders, hope you're doing well... Now I would think you would hate depreciation, as the more of it there is, the more your monthly lease payment has to increase to make up for it.

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243

    Anyone here interested in buying this beautiful stretch version of a Range Rover from the Sultan of Brunei?
    The Sultan himself will include a complimentary coffin in the sale price.

    link title

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well, I had a pretty decent year with appreciating assets so that a little extra depreciation wouldn't hurt.
    I say, bring it on! :D

    Bummer about the diesel situation. Can you imagine traveling 40 miles round-trip for re-fueling? Of course, where I used to live in Long Beach, Long Island, there is ULSD within walking distance!
    Shoulda stayed! :mad:

    Hope your injury has completely healed. :)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243

    Is anyone here interested in buying the 95 Miata below. Yup that's right it is a Miata but disquised as a BMW Z3. Talk about an Ultimate Poseur Machine.

    In fact if you are interested it is too late :cry:
    Ebay bidding has already ended.


  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I'm still dealing with the injury, thanks for asking. Lots of freakin doctors coming up this month... starting tomorrow afternoon.

    Lots of wild talk here on the forum about costs to drive, etc. Here is a link to some useful very recent statistics that illuminate the true costs to drive. Six pages of valuable data...

    Costs to Drive, 2006

    BTW, don't give up on the diesel situation too early. The U.S. market is going to explode with diesel in the next few years. :)

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Post #22750 correction:

    I mistakenly wrote:

    But you raise a good point that not all owners will realize such a high resale value and be confronted with minimal repair/maintenance costs.

    I should have written:

    But you raise a good point that not all owners will realize such a high resale value and may also be confronted with hefty repair/maintenance costs.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243

    Hope everything goes well with your injury. Get well fast!

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Also expect a sizeable increase over the $55k M3 price tag, more along the lines of 65-70, right along with the RS4 in '08.

    Starting price for the 06 M3 was $48.9K. Convertible was $56.6K. I would imagine the next coupe should be around $56-57K. The M5 only went up 10 grand and that was a brand new V10 with a pile of crackerjack surprises.
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