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High End Luxury Cars

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  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    Was that the S cost more money for all the WRONG reasons.

    Inefficient manufacturing
    Higher warranty costs
    Higher marketing costs

    This is the basis of the 'prestige' of paying more for a MB.
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    You sure put it well. Tony
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi All,
      We've said alot about the prestige aspect. Just how many people are as informed as we all are? You're exactly right in your points about MB. Being educated enthuasists, we know what we're getting. But, I've seen many purchase MB for simply the perceived prestige factor. It's really perception isn't it? The facts would indicate Lexus is equal or better in reliabilty and ownership experience, but I get the feeling that the perception favors MB. What do you all think?

    SV
  • cove148cove148 Posts: 117
    Lexus.com, "build your car" feature varies by zip code on at least the LS430. For example the Dallas zip code least expensive package is the "PM" package and the smart access feature is bundled in adding roughly another $1000 to the car. Use a L.A. zip code and Lexus offers more lower cost packages. To me this is a marketing ploy, but it says you can price a car lower in certain markets. I am sold on the LS430, but could live without a $1000.00 access key. Lexus guy- how do you see this?
  • Perception IS Reality.

    You are right the AVG. guy buying a luxury car just doesn't know.

    Growing up I always wanted a Mercedes SL...Went out to buy one and discovered I didn't fit well in it and bought an Allante...

    I also began to learn that there were alternatives to Mercedes, Even the SL...the car mags actually favored Allante over the SL in 89 and I think 90. They also favored the 93 Allante over the SL.

    In short I began to understand the Perception and Reality of the Mercedes Name were not exactly the same.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Its hard to tell. A lot of it depends on what the dealer has, and what sells. We bought my wifes RX in Carlise, but it came from Jersey. Try finding an RX or ES without leather. You're supposed to be able to get them that way, but its damn near impossible to actually find one.

    Eww.. Allante. Did you have to put buckets inside to catch water when it was raining? Lol
  • After about 1/2 a dozen trips to the dealer...They got the top right.

    Never could take the car through a car wash, without a couple of towels to dry it out.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    This:

    "Every single LS buyer looked at the S-Class and found the price "too high" so they bought the LS"

    was pure sarcasim in response to Footie's posts. Gee whiz. Unless someone spoke with every LS buyer you/we/he/I have no way of knowing this.

    My problem with this "over 50K doesn't matter" theory is that it ignores the fact that not every leases these cars, and that some actually finance and Footie would have you believe that every single person looking at the LS can just ignore such a price difference.

    I'm not even picking on LS430 owners and their wallets because we all know that some of them could buy a Maybach or SLR if they wanted too, but to think that this is the case for all of them is foolish. It also ignores what actual LS owners have posted right here on this board and others. The bottom line is that for some, 56K to 83K is not doable. This is common market sense 101.

    footie,

    This is recycled hot air at it hottest: "Most likely reason that LS outsells S 2 to 1 is that the S is a lousy value"

    Prove it. Question every LS buyer in the US and 1) find out if they even looked at the S-Class and 2) tell us if value was the reason they bought it over the S-Class.

    This is common sense footie, to some people price matters, I guess I shouldn't be shocked that you can't grasp this without a JDP or CR report. Let us forget the actual LS owners who have said so. When you bought your LS did price matter to you?

    Your point about why the S-Class costs more you hadn't even mentioned until now. Nobody is debating why the S costs more or that the price difference is justified, only that it is there and that may deter some buyers.......hence some people's simplistic look at the sales numbers to tell them which is the "best" car is ridiculous. When actual owners come out to say that price does matter, you change your argument. Figures, very CVT like.

    michael_mattox,

    Everyone knows why you bought you LS, your reasons aren't arguable with anyone.

    You bought an Allante over and SL? A completely inferior car because you fit in better, I guess we all have our reasons, but I hope you don't think the Allante was superior to the 1990-2002 SL.

    "Even the SL...the car mags actually favored Allante over the SL in 89 and I think 90. They also favored the 93 Allante over the SL."

    In 1989 yes this is true. The 560SL was based on a 15+ year old design at the time so I'd hope that in 1989 a three year old Allante was superior.

    However.......

    The introduction of the R129 SL for 1990 spelled the end of the already slow-selling Allante. Nobody favored the Allante over the 1990 SL except for that one instance and that was based on sheer hp/performance compared to a 6 cylinder 300SL. In this Car and Driver comparo they also had a side-bar on the 500SL, and it outperformed the Caddy in nearly every way. Not to mention build quality, top operation, safety engineering.. the list of SL advantages over the Allante goes on and on, again with the 1990 model. The R129 SL was build the old-fashioned MB way, like a bank vault and the comparision to an Allante was nothing short of a slaughter. A family friend had an Allante I couldn't believe that 60K car required you to get out and put the top up/down when much cheaper cars (also from GM) had power tops! By the time (1993) GM made the car even remotely close to being worth the asking price, the 1986-1992 models had killed the car's chances with the public. How in the world you expect to compete with a 236hp rwd 560SL with 140hp and fwd I'll never know. Thank god they did better this time around with the XLR.

    Now if you have a review in which the Allante was judged superior to the 1990+ 500SL I'd love to see it.

    BTW, I'm still waiting on the proof behind that innovation claim about MB/Lexus....

    M
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    Nope - you missed it again.

    Mercedes price differences AREN'T justified.

    They exist because MB has competitively inefficient manufacturing, higher warranty costs due to more defects and has to spend more on advertising.

    The nothing SUPERIOR about the cars to justify the costs.

    And what's wrong is that they aren't designed or built as good as the competition.

    Besides impressionistic assumptions like yours, if MB was executing at the same level as Lexus or Infiniti, the financial press would be singing their praises. Their P&L would be better, they wouldn't be losing market share in their own country...
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Wow, unbelievable.........I said:

    "Nobody is debating why the S costs more or that the price difference is justified, only that it is there and that may deter some buyers.......hence some people's simplistic look at the sales numbers to tell them which is the "best" car is ridiculous."

    and then you say:

    "Mercedes price differences AREN'T justified."

    What part of my original statement don't you understand? Nobody said that Mercedes' price differences were justified. Who was debating justification of a Mercedes being priced higher? Where did I say that their prices were justified. Post # please!!

    Your whole reason for being just a few days ago was to tell me that price didn't matter.

    Then when actual LEXUS OWNERS come forward and say that price does matter (reducing that silly theory to dust) you revert back to saying that the price difference isn't justified, when no one was debating, arguing or suggesting that the price difference was justified in the first place!


    We were debating price in relation to buyer's habits and once actual buyers said price matters you shifted your argument.

    What did you tell me about adding "IMO" at the end my statments? You're in desperate need of following your own advice because obviously a plenty find the Mercedes price difference (whether is warranted or not) to be worth it....reguardless of what you think and you surely don't speak for the market.

    M
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    The question in #5291 was very simple, (and we don't need a fifty page, wandering, melodramatic, paragraph answer),

    The question :

    How many LS buyers find the price of the S class 'too high'.

    IMHO, one day you will learn to use IMHO in front of your pronouncements.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    See there it goes again another shift. Now we're back on that again. Figures. Now you're no longer saying that I stated the prices were justified, so now we're back to the front.

    I Clearly stated that I didn't have the numbers and that since people, you know actual Lexus buyers have come foward to state that price does matter, that should be all the proof you need.

    Of course this doesn't help you because you're a CR/JDP graph person and unless information is in that format you can't understand or grasp it. If you need a graph conduct your own survey.

    If a actual Lexus owner comes forward and says price matter, that is the biggest proof anyone could ask for. Does their word not count?

    Did price not matter when you bought your LS?

    For a person that lives for marketing surveys and graphs you sure need a market 101 class.

    M
  • Merc:

    Price does matter...When...The more expensive item is inferior to the less expensive item.

    If you agree, and you seem to indicate you do, What is the agrument?
  • Merc:

    Well..You have agreed the 89 Allante was rated superior to the SL of it's time and that the 93 Allante was rated superior to the SL of it's time...I can live with those admissions.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    My '94 XJS-V12 was better than the Allante.. except for all those service trips that is.
  • lEXUSGUY:

    Allante could hold it's own in service required...they stopped making it in 93 the year they put the northstar system in it...the 93 was fast.

    The Allante always turned heads..it is a beautiful car still. IMHO
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Well that would be your opinion :) I think even the short lived Infiniti M30 convertible was more attractive, but they both could duke it out for "worst '80s dash". Still neither of them compare to this black beauty. She was a real looker. I almost miss her. Sniff.
    image
  • lexusguy:

    She is/was a beautiful car.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You're confused. What post did you read? The 1993 Allante was NOT superior to the 1990-2002 SL. I said the Allante was superior to the 1989 560SL. The Allante beat the 300SL in one test in 1993 and it did so based on hp, not a darn thing else. The 500SL slaughtered the Allante so bad to the point of market retreat, and except for the hp difference the 300SL was superior in every single way possible. You'd have to be either a GM employee or totally clueless about cars to think an Allante was superior to the 1990 SL.

    M
  • Merc:

    I could be clueless but I believe the Allante in 1993 was far superior to the SL of that time: Faster, more beautiful, very comfortable for the class, Hi-Tech rich, better ride, more room, a very usable trunk that would take a set or two of golf clubs and still have a little room left for luggage.

    But believe as you will.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    What? There is no way the Allante was superior in any way to the SL of the early 90s. That's a joke. The 89(maybe 90)-on SL series was unmatched. Personally I still like that boxy body style better than the current SL and that early 90s SL was a technological marvel.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    If the Allante was so great, what happened to it? The automotive press widely describes the Allante as garbage, one of Cadillac's worst moments. I dont remember anyone saying "Mercedes killer" in '93. If a car is beating the competition, you dont kill it off, simple as that. Jaguar and Mercedes went right on making better convertibles.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    I considered the Allante when I moved to the US and car-shopped in '95. Decided it was too pricey, got a used but fairly new M30 convertible (also mentioned in this thread) for $20k. The reasoning was the last thing I wanted to be bothered with in a new environment was car trouble, has reputed Japanese reliability considerations came in. The M30 did not impress: failing top, electrical glitches that ditched the car a few times, and finally paint that peeled off. Alfa Romeos were put together better in the early 80s. I ditched the M30 for a '96 (last model year) XJS convertible - white. My favorite car ever, and one I bitterly regret having sold. Argh. I could still kick myself. So I understand the ex-XJS owner. Which might serve as a lesson with those claiming a car buying decision is merely a price-benefit calculation: it's not, if that were the case the LS430 couldn't justify its price premium either, because we'd all be driving econo-boxes. The element of emotion, of rewarding ourselves etc etc is instrumental to car purchases. And when you get that right, wow. It's love. And the XJS is indeed the famous tale of the one that got away and will keep my heart halfway broken forever. :-)
  • Lexusguy:

    Show me one article where the auto press EVER discribed the Allante as Garbage...It any't so.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The Allante was never highly praised. Yes it looked nice, but from what I remember reliability problems abounded with it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yep, all kinds of rattling interior parts and things that just fell apart, not even getting into the awful top.
  • scottphillipscottphillip Posts: 249
    I had a used 1998 back in 1990. I enjoyed driving it, but the top didn't work well. I did get lots of compliments on it. It was pearl white with dark red leather and had a custom blue and green pin striping.
  • I owned an Allante for 10 years...It was about as reliable as a Mercedes, I admit.

    I would note that the car came with a 7 yr. bumper to bumper warrenty.
  • Lexusguy:

    My Allante was as tight as a drum, even after 10 years. Things did not fall off of it. It's mayor problems were the top (you will never see an Allante that hasn't had the orginal top replaced), and electrical problems, especially the computers...BUT..It was a very Hi-Tech car for it's time and it was fully warrentied for the first 7 years.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    My XJ never had top problems, it was mostly electrical demons left over from Jags of yesteryear. Some of those demons are still there.
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