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High End Luxury Cars

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  • Merc:

    I don't think I mentioned style...However I would NOTE: that back in Mercedes hayday they weren't exactly noted for style. Now it seems that Style has over taken quality at Mercedes...FORM OVER FUNCTION.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Since I love giving examples, here is a couple of examples of resale value.

    I found 1 2001 BMW 740il for sale at my local BMW dealer(certified) with 31K miles @ $40K.

    I found 2 2001 LS430s for sale at my local Lexus dealer(both certified). One has 36K miles and is selling for $45K and one has 24K miles and is selling for $47K.

    Now, if you take a MSRP of $65K for the 2001 740i(which I think is accurate) since it doesn't seem to have every option, you get a resale value of approx. 61%

    Meanwhile if you take the MSRP of the LS430 with higher miles(36K miles) and use a sticker price when new of $62K(which I think is accurate) you a resale value percentage of 72%.

    Seems like a rather wide disparity on planet reality.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Cayenne brought the Porsche rating down singlehandedly. But Porsche has a reputation for getting on top of problems. They have to... their new models are known for FMY issues. All Porsches rule... Cayenne included... drawing-board sedan included.

    Livinbmw... hang in there... they'll keep going as long as you can. The question is how long you can last, especially with Lexusguy comin' out of his mouth sideways. One more day of this and you're hired for the 8 to 4 shift. Merc has the 12-8 graveyard covered.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    MERCENARY TO FIGHT LEXUS CROWD
    4PM-12midnight shift
    Must have BS in JDP and CR Statistics
    Salary commensurate with experience
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    You're becoming the Al Michaels of the board. I love it. Thanks for the levity.

    The allstar game was awful.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Livinbmw,
     Again you state baseless opinions..Where are the facts to back this up? I think the RX has been widely praised across the board in the auto mags. It's not like the typical SUV owner is looking for a high performance truck! The RX is giving the public what it wants, as evidenced by the sales. Even if they were, get a Porsche for pete's sake. I'm sure a Cayenne will outperform anything else.
      As for the residuals argument. The depreciation stats are determined by what the market is willing to pay, not what the Lease contract states. Have a look at the used car listings for a true representative sample. I had this argument with a Jaguar dealer last week, and in the end they had to concede I was right.

     As far as NADA, the Lexus dealer seems to use something new everytime I go there. The Herb Chambers dealer nearby actually uses Kelley Blue Book. Oddly enough they actually invite you to look up the car's value on their terminal. Maybe it varies by dealer. Go figure.

    I'm sure the host is going to intervene at this point and tell us all to cool it. So on anoter note...Is it me, or am I seeing a higher percentage of female drivers in the high end cars? I've seen scores of women driving XJ8's, LS430's and even S class cars. What do you all think?

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    In and around rural areas I do find more female drivers in the cars. Going too fast on the highway in my "boring" LS430 to see if that consistency is maintained though. I'm not bored at all and love the car in everyway but the mags and some of these posters insist that is the case. They must know better than me.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    Here again, I'm referring to the product line as a whole and the fact that the BMW is the performance leader in luxury sports sedans.

     Maybe, consider that luxury is the easier part of the equation. Jaguar has a high luxury feel and so does Saab to a certain extent. But, how tought is it to slap a bunch of shiny wood on a car with some chrome and a bundle of techno gadget features compared to coming up with the "ultimate" in driving machines?

    Look, you guys are driving good cars in those toyotas, no doubt. But, why get bothered about the fact that BMW's are by far and away the true driver's choice (does lexus offer a stick in anything?).

    questions.........
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "Jaguar has a high luxury feel and so does Saab to a certain extent."

    Saab has a high luxury feel? You're joking right?

    "But, why get bothered about the fact that BMW's are by far and away the true driver's choice (does lexus offer a stick in anything?)."

    It seems like you're the one that is bothered by Lexus.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Where did I get $45K? Edmunds own road test, thats where. "MSRP of Test Vehicle: $43,445 " look it up if you like. They didnt have every single option, so therefor a maxed out X3 should cost at least $45K. I've got bad news, $45K is the domain of another SUV, the FX45. Ever driven one of those? Its got a 315hp V8, and will CRUSH an X3 when it comes to performance stats. The FX can run with the NA Cayenne. Neither the X3 or X5 can play in that league. But the marketing says they are the "ultimate?" what happned? Infiniti and Porsche out ultimated them, it looks like.

    "But, how tought is it to slap a bunch of shiny wood on a car with some chrome and a bundle of techno gadget features compared to coming up with the "ultimate" in driving machines?"

    Very "tought", apparently, as nobody else seems to be able to match Audi and Lexus in that department. Nobody else, including BMW, has mastered the perfect balance of rich woods, razer thin panel gaps, and spotless build quality. Just because the commercial says BMW's are the best, doesnt necessarily make it true. Believe it or not, those BMW commercials tend to be rather BMW biased.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    I'm trying to reply to everyone here but it's taking a little time with me becoming the favorite whipping boy on the thread while trying to make a living.......

    I'm all for getting a Cayenne over an RX. The RX is giving the public what it wants as you say, but then again the Big Mac is probably the best selling burger, too. Why a jaguar dealer would want to get in a resale debate with a savvy shopper is beyond me.

    As for the Kelly Blue Book thing, I think that KBB is very dealer friendly. In fact, it seems that what they list trade-in value for is often a favorable # for the dealer and may even equal what a wholesale appraisal would be. Black Book is the bible for cash values based on auction transactions.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    Infiniti......well, infiniti sold about 11,000 units total last month. So, they are not a huge factor in the market and I don't think BMW is particularly concerned about them. However, I have driven them and I think they are cool. It is quite the performer definitely. Personally, I much rather prefer sedans and the FX is a bit ugly as is the Cayenne in my opinion. That is a good point though about spending upper 40's on a lux SUV if you wanted an absolutely loaded to the gills X3 you certainly could consider some other makes. But, I think that BMW will sell more of the lower priced 2.5's that can be bought for mid 30's. I'd be for sure though in selecting a 4.4 liter X5 over the FX. I just got to drive the new 4.8is X5 and it's a bad SOB. It's sweet that the new X-drive will allow it to be 100% rear wheel drive.

    I didn't catch the commercial where BMW said they were the best. I do recall the tag line "Ultimate Driving Machine", and my 100% agreement will be reinforced on the drive home in about 4 hours.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We can debate opinions, thoughts, ideas, facts, etc. without attacking someone with whom we disagree.

    IOW, as predicted, the host is stepping in now to say cool it.

    :)
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Livinbmw,
      We're all making a living and considering that many of us own these cars, we sure make a good one. I am close to early retirement hence my ample time to engage in these pointless discussions. Like many here, my Lexi are something I take pride in.
      I have to agree with you on the Jaguar point. The XJ8 has a wonderful cabin, but has pretty good performance specs too (Especially the XJR) I don't think Jaguar caters to the Buick crowd. Their styling is alot better than what Bangle has come up with. I think they are somewhere between BMW and MB in terms of performance and luxury.
     
       I think the board is taking issue with your relentless bashing of Lexus..You've ignored critical points such as dependability and high end electronics and safety systems. Mercedes is probably the most innovative of the bunch, but Lexus makes cars that feature superior ergonomics, electronics, and a good combination of performance and Luxury..

    In your quest to characterize the "Ultimate" driver's car..Remember, Lexus isn't a niche market player. Hence they design functional cars that appeal to the general public's needs. If you want custom, get a M5, XJR or AMG MB.

    I think Toyota is probably the healthiest automaker out there, so they must be doing something right. I sincerely doubt anyone will question their business model. We've seen the sales numbers and seen that the LS outsells the 7 by 2 to 1. Obviously the majority doesn't agree with you. Also if BMW offers the Ultimate experience, please explain the success of Infinit as of late.

    SV
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "well, infiniti sold about 11,000 units total last month. So, they are not a huge factor in the market and I don't think BMW is particularly concerned about them."

    BMW sold about 18K units last month. but the difference is Infiniti is growing at a double digit(%) rate the last 2 years and with new and exciting products like the upcoming M45 they will be selling alot more cars in the near future.

    I like the part about BMW not being particularly concerned about them. That is a foolish statement. It's kind of like when Mercedes fans weren't concerned about Lexus in the late 80s, again thinking, they wouldn't compete with Benz.

    "Ultimate Driving Machine"? I would be more apt to put that with a Porsche 911.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    BMW might want to start thinking about maybe possibly becoming concerned. How much does an X5 4.8 actually cost? Somehow I doubt its in FX's price range. The 277hp G35 sedan and 295hp G35 coupe are very interested in making some deep gashes in BMWs 3 series market share, and they've got the product to do it. The Gs are repeated 10 best winners, and if Nissan can repeat that magic with the M (which I'm quite sure they can, since its based on an even stronger and more advanced version of the FM platform), they can do some serious damage to the 5, which has thusfar been getting mediocre reviews, and was beaten in comparos by a Cadillac of all things. So the 7 hasnt been received well, the 5 hasnt been received well, the X3 hasnt been received well, BMW sure is on a roll. Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura are going to pose MUCH stronger threats in 05\06, and BMW has already laid its cards down on the table and only managed a pair of 2s.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    Toyota is incredible, I agree. In fact, as I mentioned I worked for toyota for many years and have a deep appreciation for the product and the company.

    This whole conversation built steam from the point where I stated that BMW's are more sturdy and better drivers. I'll modestly stand by that.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    a 4.8 is low 70's. BMW sold 24,432 vehicles in May. Infiniti 11,143. 3 series has been top 10 for 12 years.

    I'm sorry and don't want to offend anyone but the cadillac is no comparison to a 5. NO COMPARISON. The day that GM produces anything that is truly comparable to a BMW is the day that I buy one. Cadillac, geez, why even bring them up? The 7 has sold more than any previous 7. So, that sounds like pretty good reception. The 5 is the best car in the segment, still, but by a larger margin (remember Consumer Reports Magazine, BIG pro-toyota people, said the best car that they've ever tested was the 530i).

    Go drive a new 545i (if you can find one)to experience the premier sedan in the industry. You'll find that a lot of owners of such a vehicle will select the 6-speed manual because above all they value driveability and performance. You just won't get that in a Japanese model or, shockingly enough, from a Cadillac.

    Good points, though.
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    BTW, livin, the 530 that CR raved about was the late E39 model. They apparently don't think as highly of the E60. Neither do I.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    welcome to the gangpiling......

    The new 530i is superior in every way to the previous version. It's quicker, it changes directions with jaw-dropping efficiency, it's roomier, it's safer, it's quieter, it's even got better cupholders, just what americans needed.

    Don't doubt BMW. When they bring out a new model they improve the entire package. And, they've done it with the 5, the 7, the Z.
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    You wrote: "The new 530i is superior in every way to the previous version. It's quicker, it changes directions with jaw-dropping efficiency, it's roomier, it's safer, it's quieter, it's even got better cupholders, just what americans needed."
     
    So why does CR (which you cited first, not I) no longer think it's the "best car?" Me, I just hate the bustle butt and Dame Edna eyebrows and i-Drive and the crummy interior. I guess the cupholders make up for it, eh?

    And so you know, I drive a BMW and wouldn't consider owning a Lexus in their present configurations. However, I would consider an Infiniti.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Sigh more double posting. I generally am not a BMW fan, but I liked driving the E39 540i a lot. With the sport package that car had a nice interior (well for '97 it did) terrific feel, handling, and balance. I have driven the new 545i, livinbmw, and I hated it. Active steering is a mess, it should never have made it into a production car. The great feel of the old car was gone, just completely disappeared in favor of computer-sim steering. Its sort of like Mercedes crap feel e-brakes, except in steering, which is even more important. As C&D put it,

    "Driver comments just after this test hint at our discomforts here—“lots of grip, little roll, and fast steering, but it feels so alien.” Another of our testers called it the “ultimate driving simulator.” The problem? There’s no information coming back through the steering. You simply dial in the wheel angle you think will produce the right arc and hope for the best. It cuts smartly when you turn the wheel, right up until—surprise—it doesn’t, just like a simulator."

    I dont see the 545i making this years 10.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    One of the most ardent BMW fans I know, got rid of his new 7-series earlier this year after continuous trips to the BMW dealership for software upgrades to the car's OS and sundry other issues (like headrests that extended to the ceiling on their own volition before Rev 4.2).

    Did he like the way it drove? Yep. Did he like the ownership experience? No way! He described it as 'remember the saying Dad told you about marrying the right girl?'

    He gave up after his occasional moments of 'driver's car' ectasy continued to be interrupted by extended periods of unavailability.

    He now drives a totally maxed out LS430. He loves it, but for different reasons than the 7-series. He said "it finally dawned on me that the reason for being in the car wasn't to look for the next off-ramp that I could blast through at 80 mph while no one was looking. Now I drive to work in an automobile as close to perfection as is possible. It's polite, handles great in the real world, responsive to my every whim and brimming with technology that actually works. Why in the hell would I want to throw myself at potholes on exit ramps at 80 mph when being so pampered is much more fun."

    He get's it. Lexus gets it.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    Baseball fans that aren't Yankee fans, hate the Yankees. Why? championships, heritage...

    BMW is the Yankees of the automotive industry.

    By the way active steering was Automobile Magazine's 2004 Technology of The Year for enhanced stability, improved agility and rapid countersteering corrections.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    by the way ............. the new 545i is the best driving car I've ever driven (including the E39 M5, but not including a Porsche, naturally). It's magnificent. I can't imagine someone driving one and hating it.
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    Your point?
  • quemfalaquemfala Posts: 107
    From a previous post:
    "the FX45. Ever driven one of those? Its got a 315hp V8, and will CRUSH an X3 when it comes to performance stats"
     
    But:

    Doesn't anyone care what a car looks like? This is about the ugliest, clown-shoe of a car, that's been let out of the pound! I know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but what about the rest of us being forced to look at "ugly"? There ought to be a law!
    Enjoy!
    Life is Better at the Beach!
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    How much fun could the magazines and critics have if all the reviews had the same conclusion? Why buy the magazine? The market craves for activity and controversy.

    It's a little boring in a sense to say the top entry level luxury car is the 3 series, the top sport coupe is the M3, the top luxury sedan is the 5, the top sport sedan is the M5 and on and on.....

    Happy Motoring..........I'm taking me and my "ultimate driving machine" home.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    merc1 - You need to get Mercedes back into this. Lexus vs. BMW can't hold a candle to Lexus vs. Mercedes. There's not enough cross-shoppers and the two brands - as you stated so well - play to different crowds.

    livinbmw - I'd imagine the 5-series or some other BMW is going to come over the hill like the cavalry to save the world based on your adoration of the cars. Please don't let it be a 7-series though because the i-drive may fail at the critical moment. You love your car (unless you need to do all this bashing to convince yourself of it) and that's fine and its the best thing that ever happened - for you. No one here agrees with you - not even other 5-series people apparently (on the new model) - but at the end of the day the only thing that's really important in the auto world is that people love their cars or the cars on their wish list. It's really not important that others love them as well. But somehow if you really love your car and think it's as great as it is there should be no need whatsoever to put down other cars or trump up your own. The car should have the ability to do that all by itself.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi All,
      I think my biggest issue is the amount of electronics BMW and others have crammed into their cars. It's over the top and definitely distracts from the overall driving experience. I did like the last gen BMW's. They were great cars, specifically the 6 spd 540. I find the new ones intrusive with the iDrive and the Bangle styling.
      I find the anti Lexus sentiment comes purely from German fans. I've never had a Jaguar fan comment negatively on my car. Reading some of the blurbs on the web seems to confirm this. Do we have to get Dr. Phil here to find out the roots of this hostility towards each other?

    SV
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