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High End Luxury Cars

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  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    I wouldn't talk about using this and that and this for "Lexi folk". All you do is use your enthusiast slant of everything and the only reason you don't use JDP or CR is because, frankly, they are never on Benz's side. If they were, you would be using them as references left and right!

    And just to let you in on a little secret, you really can't hush up the Lexi crowd, just like nobody can hush up the "Mercedes crowd" or the "BMW crowd" and their infinite enthusiast slant to everything or the "japanese are brainwashing you" crud.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    www.thecarconnection.com

    has pretty good pics of the upcoming BMW 3-series. Looks like BMW didn't let Bangle Bangleup the 3-series as much as the he has bangled the 5-series or 7-series. That's good news!!!
  • Merc:

    Yes you would have to find the post in which I said Lexus was overtaking someone in the area of style....I will be interested in seeing if you can.
  • Merc:

    I said that mercedes is now putting an emphesis on styling, something that they did not do in their hayday when they concentrated on Engineering and innovation....and ...Quality.

    They have shifted their Advertising to Style, rather then function, something that they did not do in their hayday when they built their reputation.

    Lexus learned from the earily Benz how to be successful, it has concentrated on building a reputation based on quality, and function and are now winning the race....
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    Your comment about the hail storm in Chicago, where "...only the Volvos, Mercedes and VW/Audis weren't damaged..." is a complete generalization. I remember the hail storm last year because my car was outside when it happened (I was at my cousin's house for a BBQ). I have a 2002 ES 300. My car did not have one single mark from the storm. My other cousin's 2003 E-Class did get dings. I don't think Mercedes steel is any better, not after what I saw.

    Also, my friend in Dallas last year bought a brand-new Volvo wagon for $12,000 off because it sustained hail damage. So, Volvo is not immune either.
  • Merc:

    Here is my full post: The word style in this context was related to fashionable not the styling of the machine...Sorry about the confusion...My bad. You will also note I said the torch is passing..It will still take a few years for Lexus to fully gain the reputation that Mercedes once had ...but as surly as day follows night it is happening.

    Merc:

    Good Post..If I read it right you are pointing out how Rolls survived on it's reputation for quality for 20 years or more then the torch was passed to Mercedes who had actually had built better quality cars for years and it just took the public years to catch up...

    Now the torch (the public perception of quality and style and prestige) is passing from Mercedes to Lexus...
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    I agree with your assessment. Mercedes definately used to have thicker metal, but I noticed when the 1996 E-class came out the body panel sheet metal got thinner over the 1995 E-class. I think it's obvious why the exterior steel has gotten thinner in recent years. First is expense-this is one are where they can cut substantial bucks without sacrificing safety and without the customer really noticing the cutback. Second, with cars becoming ever safer with structural improvements and safety gear, it really isn't necessary to have as thick steel panels as it used to be. Third, automakers have to shave off pounds wherever they can to improve gas mileage. And with weight being added elsewhere because of all the useless gadgets this has to be done.

    I know the "germans can do no wrong" crowd will go off and twist and turn the post around to say what they want it to say, but buy saying that Mercedes has thinned out the metal in no way means it's as thin as a Hyundai's panel or the E-class is not solid.
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    In last week's Automotive News there was an article about Subaru going upmarket. The bosses in Japan are "demanding" the brand be the equal of Audi and near BMW in brand prestige in the U.S. within five years. To help the effort there will be upgraded showrooms and all-new styling that will debut on a new 7-passenger SUV next year.

    The "dramtic" styling will appear on all future models and is being done by Subaru's new chief designer, who has worked at Alfa Romeo, BMW, Fiat and Pininfarina. The SUV will cost more than the Outback, which starts at about $34,000.

    It will be interesting to see how Subaru fares.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Don't understand your post. I never said anything about age. I said there is no such thing as an athletic demo and there isn't - at least not one that any marketer or info company would use. If a demo is not independently accepted and in the mainstream no one believes it and it is useless aa a marketing tool. Demos are tied all the way down to block levels at times and the only ones that are buildable upon for marketing tools are wealth based or spending power ones cross tied to age. There is also a lifestage variant of age which is tied to whether you have children, how many and what age classifications they fit into. Consumer package goods companies and auto manufactures are very interested in lifestage for obvious reasons. There used to be others that tried to develop various offshoots but they never came into play including one that will tell you about illnesses by zipcode. The only ones who care about the latter are local hospitals hence it never got off the ground. It's pretty easy to define what a male between 25-34 making $X per year is and to prove the data. It comes from census data and census updates cross verified with other databases including credit checks. How would anyone define athletic and how would you prove such a subjective thing? You can't, thus it doesn't exist.

    designman - went back and read your post 5992 where you ranted about auto sales. Now you should have said to yourself - before you posted - "pins and needles, needles and pins, a happy man is a man who grins". Then you would have felt much calmer. But make sure you keep paying the bills.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    Kudos to BMW for having the courage to evolve in more than performance and technology but also style. All these anti-BMW people will look at everything as a fault. Which explains these contentions that any other make could possibly drive as well or, as ridiculous as it may be, better than the ultimate driving machine.

    The 5 for instance has a much more muscular active look than the previous subdued conservative look. The tall doors and sloped front end give the car a look of movement and power. The bended surfaces divert from the boring "cut out of a cylinder" appearance and lets the light offer a natural variety of shadow play that is elegant and always active.

    Many of the same points would be true of the Z4 in a more flamboyant sense without looking awkward like the boxster or SC.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    just for a second maybe consider the possibility that you don't know every demographic designation.

    The athletic classification is a BMW demograph. This is the "active" group that includes skiers, campers, snow-boarders, bikers, etc... notice the new X3 ads? Example, BMW has a higher percentage of golfers than any other make, much higher than Mercedes. That's why it was a priority for them to have trunk space in the Z4 for golf clubs. Did anyone see the ESPN ad with the stanley cup in the front passenger seat and the huge guy in the trunk?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Who's the "anti-Bmw" people?

    I'm gonna love hearing you list the people who are "anti-bmw" and how you come to the conclusion that they are "anti-bmw".
  • livin bmw:

    I have to say that it seems to me that the BMW style is evolving in the Wrong direction.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Labeling the "groups" participating in this conversation is downright silly and childish. (anti-bmw folks, germans-can-do-no-wrong group, Lexi people etc.)

    Let's talk about our thoughts and ideas without categorizing the folks we are talking to -- it's not necessary, becomes a point of argument in and of itself and it distracts from a productive debate.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    This has never been a productive debate and it can never be one. It's mainly each side giving their views which obviously cannot be changed.

    And let's face it, it's been the same arguments for at least a couple of years(and probably longer) from the same sides. Not really productive, IMO.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    There are some new people participating here and there are different perspectives being presented.

    It's very nice to see.

    Don't feel compelled to stick around if that's what you think about this conversation. :)
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    That's an internal BMW demo for their marketing purposes apparently. If people want to believe their marketing as fact that is their choice. BMW is a buyer of ad time and space and it and its agencies use the accepted norms of the industry - which does not include athhletic. Besides its the seller of ad time that touts its audience to drive up rates. The advertiser and its agency do the opposite - just like any car buyer tries to get the best deal. Creative people do all they can on an ad to hold an audience in this day of 300 TV stations and remotes that change channels on a dime. It's common sense that BMW, with a handling car preference would aim their cars via creative ads at the younger crowd. That's their whole spin, marketing and brand-building.

    Don't know whether you know this or not but BMW puts most of its money in local marketing and local advertising. It's a real low spender in national.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    Yes, it is internal. Perhaps, "athletic" and and "active" are interchangeable terms.
     BMW Centers spend a good deal of advertising dollars on local events like golf outings, open houses, model launches, etc....that they know will appeal to their clients.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    So I need to get my facts straight, but you seem to be the one spouting completely unfounded "information" on how all of the Japanese are just in it for the money, and VW makes the worlds greatest cars. Please. I've seen plenty of pictures of VWs and Audis torn in half in bad accidents. In a recent IHHS report, the Camry and Accord won the side impact test against all other tested cars, even when hit with a huge steel bar meant to simulate a large pick up or SUV hitting the car at 30mph. You have no information on any Japanese cost cutting, nor do you have any information on what actually happened with the girl and her Honda, though you present them as "facts" and not "here's me making up more anti-Japanese garbage".

    "You are obviously unfamiliar with VW's Phaeton. Possibly the only vehicle you can buy that may be safer than an S-Class in an accident!" I'm actually very familiar with it, as there are lots of reports of it tanking both here, and in Europe. Oh, and I mean tanking in a bad way, not in a "safe" way. How about accident avoidance? Thats part of safety, is it not? How does the Phaeton's 2.5 tons of pork help it there? Even you can't deny that the Phaeton is a giant flop, a failed experiment by VW to try and build a German car with a Lexus interior and a VW badge, and there will most likely not be another one.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    One thing about the “Lexus crowd”. They all seem to be on the same page. Not so in BMW world. This is what the new BMW has done to us. I have to get going, but I think we’re gonna have some BMW owners hanging out their laundry here pretty soon. Of course I don’t take these things seriously and approach this in a sporting manner but…

    O-o-o-o-o Livinbmw…

    Pins n’ needles… gr-r-r-r-r

    ;-)
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    You know what else, Its kind of hard to get the Phaeton with a diesel, as they arent sold that way here. Lexus has the LS500GT up its sleeve, which will out perform, both in mpg, power, and emissions, VWs V8 TDI diesel.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Let's not jump the gun with the LS500GT. Their is no word from Toyota on that project, yet. Nor is their any specs out their about gas mileage, performance, etc.
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    You obviously have never driven behind a diesel. I recently posted how I was driving behind a Jetta TDI in the rain. The smell coming from the Jetta was so bad that I had to change my climate control to recirculating. Of course, all that did was fog up my windows because of the rain and outside conditions. I am not a big fan at all. I don't see how Europeans deal with the awful odor of diesels.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    How many that would want such a car would go with Lexus? What do the Sinatra fans think? It would be a statement car for them and maybe add a second Formula 1 team to go along with Toyota. Come to think of it that might be a great idea seeing that they are well ahead of BMW this year, right?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Trying to defeat the so-called "Lexi group" is useless.... Same as trying to defeat the "BMW-crowd" or "MB-fanatics". Stating which: many of us Lexi fans know quite a bit about MBs and BMWs (prior owners, friends and family), but I find that *many* German car fans are more introverted with their brand loyalty and don't even bother to learn much about Toyota/Lexus bcos of the bias based on perceptions of Japanese cars. The most some of them know are culled from auto rag comparos, reviews, comments, whatever.... Those like Merc1 and even (newly minted) Livinbmw use qualifiers such as yawns, boring, ugly, copy-cats, etc to describe Lexus cars and trucks. Interesting to see that these days when we talk about MBs and BMWs its more to do with their styling than their performance. Like Michael_Mattox correctly stated, today's MB is more about style (look-at-me) than function (how-much-I-offer-you). How sad ! The most illustrious, innovative, marque brand on the planet (MB) is more concerned about how their product "looks" than what it does !!!

    As a Lexus owner, I have written my comments on a test drive of my colleagues '03 C230 6-speed Kompressor. I have also test driven an '04 LS430, and written my comments about the car. HAd long and extensive test drives of the LS, 528i, GS3, and A6, prior to buying the LS. My wife prefered I purchase the BMW, and I was quite close to buying it but went with my head rather than my heart, and bought the LS. Feel a lot better about that decision. I am only 41, very active, very educated, and a working class professional. Looks like I may not fit the profile of an LS owner (50-ish, business owner-type, non-athletic, yada yada yada). I have many friends who are MB and BMW owners. I have written about some of their experiences with their German cars. Overall, they give their cars mid-grade in reliability and performance. Talking of performance, maybe we need to re-produce an excerpt from the Dec 2003 C&D comparo of the $70K lux cars (which the LS430 won, remember):

    The Lexus ride is unmatched in this group. There's a switch on the dash that lets you make it a little worse if you must. Go ahead, if more sinew in the suspenders makes you think handling is better.... Acceleration is brisk: second best to 60 mph; third in the quarter, at 95 mph, as it showed taillights to three of the four Germans...

    That is the LS that is ridiculed here as a yawn and a boring car. 0-60 in about 6s is boring to German car fans. Even when it shoes tailights to the likes of the S430 and Audi A8. Boring indeed !!! Yeah right. Turned out the S came LAST in the comparo. That is truly a huge failure especially since many MB fans live and die on these comparos anyway. There is much that was revealed in the Dec 2003 comparo; how truly Lexus has climbed the ladder of success against the Germans, and how truly the Germans have fallen against the despised and much ridiculed (boring yawn) Lexus. Like I always say, MB execs are NOT yawning at Lexus now, are they ? Maybe they'll get their cut-backs from their workers and use these $600M+ to build a better car than Lexus builds. Guess, we'll see won't we.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    There is an awful lot of psychology going on here.

    I'm liking this Lexus F1 team concept. The post sinatra crowd could go Josh Brogan.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The Jag XJ beat all of the Germans as well. VW\Audi were near the bottom.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    today's poll on CD website says 49% that the new M5 will be the best production car ever........51% say it will not.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    You mean the BMW guys are saying humina, humina, humina, humina.....

    I'm sure that's what Bangle would be saying if the old world BMW lovers could trap him in a corner.

    Reviews of the 911 are absolutely awesome. Seems like Porsche improved handling and made the ride smoother and quieter at the same time. That car is going to have a waiting list, I'm sure.

    livinbmw - The old 5-series looked athletic, particularly in sport style - the new one looks weird to me. Almost like when you overdecorate a house. Plenty of things may look good individually but the whole package just doesn't come together.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    From what I've been told the LS500GT is a done deal. What's open is the timing. Is it a 2006 on the heels of the new LS or does it come later as a 2007 intoduced in spring - that seems to be the question that's unsettled.
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