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High End Luxury Cars

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  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    Here's some wheels on new BMW's that are dope...
    330i performance pk, 330Ci sport, M3, oh my god look at those 760i wheels!!!, 4.4 sport wheels, 4.8is and the Z4 3.0 standard as opposed to the sport elipsoid wheel,,,,,,,,,

    check these out designman. Maybe, you can reconsider.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Posts: 351
    Speaking of getting your facts straight... the Sprinter Van is a DCX product, not a VW product.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    Odd, the article you mention doesn't say that SAP is suffering from quality issues in its SW products. What it states is the obvious: it is expensive to do business in Germany. Labor laws are strict indeed, and employees relatively protected. *Nowhere* does it state that thios affects quality standards in German products - you guys are making that up, and injecting it as a fact into some other facts nor I nor anyone else with an ounce of common sense disputes. SAP -like any other Germany, car companies included- has declared cost cutting a high priority. *Nothing* to do with quality. None of the points you make. And that was all I disputed all along. Never did I say Germany didn't have challenging labor laws. But by the way, when I worked for a high tech public company in 2001 we whacked the German office just like the US offices, and 3 months was all everybody got US or anywhere else...

    And note I utterly share the sentiment about melting pot - strict ideology is soemthing I have always viewed as a copout by the intellectually lazy. I feel utterly comfortable freely borrowing whatever I think works best for the particular social and economical issues we face.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    Mattox - you need to learn a bit about the way German unions work. They do not strive to make all workers equal, that is utter nonsense. The compensation schemes are highly performance oriented, period, and the more and better you work the more you'll make as a rule.

    And cite one single study that links German unions or lack or workers' will to work hard with MB's quality problems. There aren't any. Again, lack of investment a la Toyota in making sure you're implementing best of the best practices is what is missing, because it was not prioritized. If you could read German, there are several articles in www.diezeit.de that have gone into that, especially when it comes to MB's recent history of management mistakes. The fact that you assume the guys that bought Chrysler are guys that set the right process priorities internally, and that it was merely lazy workers that didn't do their part is downright entertaining.
  • audibobaudibob Posts: 33
    Look, let me start off saying 'YES I AM ASSOCIATED WITH AUDI!'

    However, I bought an Audi after owning a BMW328, and a Merc E320. I love this car, as most europians do. That is what made me fight to get a position with the company.

    I am not trying to push this product, but I would like to get things straight.

    1: Lexus is an "Entry" Lux car. It uses styrofoam for sound damping, and sounds like a tin can hitting a wall whenever you close a door or hood. It is a nicely refined toyota, good value for the money, but nowhere close to the Germans for performance, road handling, or Lux Passenger Environment.

    2: BMW is a solid car. And it actually handles great in a straight line when compared to Merc or Audi. And they even have a windows (YEP) base computer system. (Bet you wondered why all the problems...) P.S. The name cost you an extra $5k - $15k.

    3: Merc just had a press release claiming that over 600 features where being removed due to "not be needed," and "not being profitable to make work correctly." This came after a historic rise in customer complaints in recent years. P.S. Greatly underpowered compaired to is rivals.

    4: If I had to be involved in a major accident, I would only choose to be in a "german" car. Go to one of the dealerships for these cars and drive one if you don't understand.

    5: This being said, once you drive and Audi you will understand why it Rules Europe. There is nothing even close in performance, fit and finish, SAFETY, and Material Quality. I dare you to actually drive these before you challenge me. (I will admit, there were some really crappy older models....I refer to 1998 and up when Audi rebuilt themselves.)
  • quemfalaquemfala Posts: 107
    "if you happen to network with Limbaugh and go for good old intellectually lazy right wing clichees"

    Gee, is Limbaugh in charge of manufacturing? I didn't know that!!!

    Life is better at the beach!
  • quemfalaquemfala Posts: 107
    How about "styling"? or -- exciting to look at? Couldn't Audi include that with its "great engineering"? A lot of things are designed and engineered for near mechanical perfections -- but boring.

    Just asking.
  • quemfalaquemfala Posts: 107
    "best aspects of each will combine to affect the world positively"

    I'd like to be educated. What, pray tell, are the best aspects of Socialism?
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Heh, well, this is not the right venue to explore the best aspects of socialism, so let's just stick to the specific cars without going that far out of the discussion and the message board boundaries.

    Thanks.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    My Lexus sounds like a bank vault when I close it. Rock solid car. If the Audi is so great there is no need to belittle anything else - predjudices and your obvious inability to be fair minded nothwithstanding.

    Give me a break!
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "This being said, once you drive and Audi you will understand why it Rules Europe."

    Really? That is extremely interesting insight. There is only one problem, Audi is far from ruling the rest of the world. In fact, I even doubt it "rules" Europe. I thought, out of luxury cars, Mercedes ruled.

    The rest of your post is quite funny also!

    "BMW is a solid car. And it actually handles great in a straight line when compared to Merc or Audi. And they even have a windows (YEP) base computer system."

    Funny, last time I checked it even handled better in turns!

    "3: Merc just had a press release claiming that over 600 features where being removed due to "not be needed," and "not being profitable to make work correctly." This came after a historic rise in customer complaints in recent years. P.S. Greatly underpowered compaired to is rivals."

    Yet it seems similar Benz cars in Audi's lineup are slower.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    944 - it was the only Porsche I copuld swing back then. Enjoyed it very much but it wasn't reliable. Neither was my 280Z before it as it had plenty of electrical problems.

    I must admit those 911 reviews are tempting me though. I can afford plenty of Porsche now. But my wife would kill me. She doesn't drive stick. She wants an SL or an SC as a toy car in about a year. In the meantime I've got too much going on in my business between now and the inflection point of a toy car. But at that realm - it's a play thing - so if MB reliability is still sub-par it won't concern me as much.

    By the way - a good friend had a 911 and we got pulled over on the Garden State pkwy one night (this was before the kids and responsibility) going well over 100mph. He saw the cops headlights pull off from the side of the road in the far distance and knew we were in trouble. Luckily it turned out to be a good trooper and he ticketed my buddy at only 71mph which was just below the trigger to much more serious fines. But we did spend 5-10 minutes talking about the Porsche with him. Indeed Porsche does carry that kind of weight and mystique.

    lastly - the European labor situation is a problem as far as I'm concerned. I worked 15 years for a European business and everyone knew it. The cast system there also hinders people from speaking up against the decisions higher up. The MB CFO that spoke heavily against continuing the Mitsubishi investment rarely happens there. In general my experience is that workers totally disagree with certain business strategies, production or approach but simply do not speak out despite the fact that they have so much severance protection. That is telling.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Just thought this is interesting news....

    http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=colum- nist_levin&sid=ayabRNuoohoA

    Merc1: No need to comment on everything, especially since all you have to say are same old same old shtufff. Gotta move on... Suggest you do too. Oh, forgot to mention. MB rules !!!
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Gee, I would never have guessed that you worked for Audi, given the incorrect information and BLATANT Audi bias.

    "It uses styrofoam for sound damping, and sounds like a tin can hitting a wall whenever you close a door or hood. It is a nicely refined toyota, good value for the money, but nowhere close to the Germans for performance, road handling, or Lux Passenger Environment." Where did you get this information? Or did you just make it up? Audi rules nowhere, not Europe, and certainly not the North American market. Here Audi comes in last place, behind the "entry" Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes.

    "P.S. Greatly underpowered compaired to is rivals." Your statement was in reference to M-B, but Audi is most guilty of that. Audi\VW's 3.0L V6 is pathetic, it is the smallest displacement, lowest power engine compared to any of Audi's German or Japanese rivals. The Toureg V6 is stuck with that wheesebox, and it has an 11 second 0-60 thanks to it.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "My comment about Lexus metal vs. Mercedes metal was not a generalization. It was based on what I saw last summer after a hail storm (parked in the same driveway, my Lexus did not have hail damage, my cousin's E-Class did), and I indicated it as my opinion.

    Whis is exactly the same thing I stated, what I saw. I was out with a friend during that time frame, looking at cars and yes we did check all the area dealers, not for hail damaged, but because he was buying a car. The Mercedes and VW dealers are the only ones that didn't have damage to their outside inventories.

    You told what you saw and so did I and in your opinion was that of MB not having thicker sheetmetal and without the facts you're asking me for you're making just that, a "generalization" based on what you saw.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You too think the E320 is underpowered huh? I see others have beat me to it, but Audi truly makes some snails. The A4 1.8T is the slowest automatic transmissioned car I've ever driven. The A4 3.0 is no faster than anything else in its class either, and the A6 3.0 (same engine bigger car as you should know) is even worse. The E320 will outrun either of them with an automatic.

    Lexusguy,

    Sorry, but the ES330 could be made out of the best materials on earth, wouldn't matter to me, it is about the ugliest car in that price range by far, and the drive is totally off-putting to say the least. Fit and finish isn't everything.

    ljflx,

    I swear if you buy a 911 or SL I swear I won't know what to do here anymore. You know you can get a 911 with an automatic, sacrilegious as that may be.

    M
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    I'd like to point out my comments on labor were only and exclusively countering the supposed implication of unions on quality. First, it seems the agenda of German unions is not well understood in the US, and second and foremost, it's effect on quality mere and wild speculation. It is not like Japanese companies operate on the hire and fire premise. The concept of the labor contract seems to work for Toyota, which prides itself on a loyal workforce with lots of privileges and job protection. Probably more so than German workers enjoy these days.

    That said, and as ljflx re-stated, no one disputed German labor laws are *costly*. What *is* disputable is that they negatively influence product quality directly. All of the German car companies have had more than enough time to terminate every German workers and move their entire manufacturing capacity to Eastern Europe. They haven't. And they make a point to produce their highest end models -and inceidentally highest quality ones- in Germany with parts sourced from German suppliers. Not that it helps them achieve Toyota standards, but that's the best they can currently do quality wise.

    Again, the business challenge in Germany is labor *cost*. Labor *quality* is actually great. It is just up to management to utilize that quality at premium cost so that it supports business goals.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Mike you're confused so keep thinking what you're thinking. If you think older Mercedes' weren't stylish then you'd be in minority in that thinking. Mercedes SL, and just about every 2-door they've ever made were handsome cars. Like I said before, you mentioning the past doesn't changes the fact the Lexus has a ridiculously styled hodgepodge group of cars that range from grown-up looking Civics (IS300) to discarded Italian design proposoals for a Jaguar (first GS) that was altered in Japan to only look worse for 1998 and then finally the love-child of a W140 S-Class and a Avalon, the LS430. There is nothing fashionable about any present Lexus no matter how many times you bring up past Mercedes. Mercedes' older designs like the W126 S-Class (1981-1991) was a classic. All Mercedes did was go from boxy and formal to sporty and swoopy, it isn't like they made butt-ugly cars like you know who does. Their design language is clear and present in everything they make and has only changed in becoming more modern. You know a Mercedes whether it is a 2 months old or 50 years old. Lexuses look like big Toyotas. Between the SC430 and Solara and LS430 and Avalon I think you need to concentrate their present styling and not Mercedes' past.

    ""First with the most" Actually I think to say Lexus is "second with the best" is accurate. Being First is a negative in many ways when a company rushes innovations into production just for the sake of saying they were first.

    Back on that again I see. I've been waiting for over a year for you to list what Lexus came up after Mercedes did that Lexus perfected. I'm also still trying to find a Cadillac Alante that has a "shoulder harness" too.

    "I say again...Mercedes once the greatest car in the World has slipped because they have favored in recent years Form over Function. They have favored "Get it first" rather then "Get it best"

    And saying it 100 times doesn't make it true. I'm still waiting on you to give me an example of this Mike. If you think they didn't at the very least set out to make the best then there is no point in even talking about this. They "favored" something not working right. That is such bs. In what functional way are Mercedes' cars compromised because they are are too busy with styling? Are Mercedes' rear seats cramped due to swoopy styling, are they less-safe because of styling considerations? I'm seriously willing to listen to something factual about Mercedes being compromised or not functional because of their styling or some other frivilous approach they now have towards car design. I suspect this is yet another in a long line if unprovable ramblings from you on Mercedes. Innovations now styling is compromising the functionality of their cars? Ok, I'm reading.

    M
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Posts: 200
    Is Cadillac on the Map yet?

    image
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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yep they're on the map, but in where is the question.

    The CTS-V while delivering the numbers hasn't proved to be the equal of the Germans in build or refinement. Axle hop problems in a 2004 performance car?

    The STS I'm actually sort of impressed with. It seems, so far to be a very well thought out car, if a little pricey. Cadillac isn't using a cheaper price combined with an inferior car to lure customers anymore. They think they have a truly equal product and their pricing shows this. It will be interesting how many people pay 60K+ for a STS.

    I personally don't care much for the new look as the old Cadillacs didn't have a styling problem to me, especially the 1998-2004 Seville. I think part of the reason the XLR hasn't sold well is because very few people want the jet fighter look when buying a 76k luxury-sport roadster. They seem to want the sensous and curvy look like the XK, or the formal and elegant look of the SL. The CTS' proportions are very correct, but all the harsh lines and sharp angles keep it from being "good looking" in my book. The STS looks much better at least in pics, I haven't seen it in person yet.

    The STS-V and XLR-V with a projected 425hp will only get beat in the mags against the M5/E55 and SL55 AMG. As trivial as it may be, winning some of these comparos would go a long way towards renewing Cadillac's luster. The SRX is the only one that has really won anything so far. The CTS and XLR have been merely compeitive.

    M
  • audibobaudibob Posts: 33
    Once again...
    Go and drive an Audi then compare. I deal with Lexus on a daily basis. If they were in the same league, they would be priced comparably...unless you just happen to think they are the only company that does not want to charge the most the market will take?? Maybe we should put them incharge of national heathcare....
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Another blocky butt with oversized lamps. The profile is stark and slabby. Also, I cand stand the top-heavy trapezoidal, overly wooden console.

    However, the frond end is dead-nuts PERFECT. Look how the subtle bumper cuts and grille blend easily into the understated vertical crease which is the focal point. Nothing overpowers on the front... all elements work in perfect harmony to strike a noble chord. Notice how the features are finessed in comparison to the CTS. And it sure does review nicely against the 545 with performance.

    Jeez, this car is so close with styling. I hope Cadillac sticks around with sport sedans. They really need to nail the recipe, perhaps a tall order for a car with a pure luxury following.
  • audibobaudibob Posts: 33
    Audi is recognized by both rivals and critiques as having the most inspiring and detailed interiors, and the most elegant and understated design, simple and clean, refined. Sorry its not "Boy Racer" enough.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I'll take an S4 wagon with 6-speed. There's a stealthy car that kicks some butt and is handsome. I think Audi has brass putting that baby on the table. I think if I could have only one car, I would consider it bigtime.
  • audibobaudibob Posts: 33
    You have shown that
    1: You have not driven all the cars you speak about.
    2: You do not understand the effect of the numbers you read about in the magazines you use for information.

    There are some things that magazines do not comment on such as power transfer, horsepower lose through the drivetrain, and "Power at Wheel", "Torque at Wheel", etc.

    A 3.0 or a 1.8t with a $500 APR chip will lay waste to an E320 or V6 Lexus.

    Apparently some people feel they are educated by reading some books...

    Maybe we need to only speak about cars we have actually driven and PUSHED TO THEIR LIMITS.

    How do you communicate with a person that does not want to believe, will not look, and will not consider anything outside their experience?
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    Last I checked having the more expensive price does not automatically make a car, or any product for that matter, better.

    Oh, by the way, my girlfriend's father is a car fanatic. He has owned just about every kind of car there is. A few years ago he bought an Audi S8...and kept it for a total of four months. He said it was the worst car he ever owned for a number of reasons (mostly mechanical). He has also owned a Mercedes SL600 and S-Class and currently drives a BMW 7 Series (all bought new) and says the Audi isn't even close to those two German brands.

    I don't care what league the A8 is in, the fact is they can barely give them away compared to the S/7/LS.
  • audibobaudibob Posts: 33
    Considering I sell several each month, usually with a 7 as a trade, I think you are confused.

    "Windows" by microsoft is an execellent basis for the 7's computer, no buggs right????

    And the last S8 is an older model you are compairing to everyones newer stuff....fair enough. I would love to compair them side by side.

    However, take a look at the current A8L, Let alone the new S8 with the Lambo/Audi v10 and then talk....
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Give it to 'em man! We need another voice around here. And I just lo-o-o-ve Audi wagons. No one else comes close on the high end.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "I deal with Lexus on a daily basis."

    Sure you do!! You just keep saying that to yourself and maybe it will come true!
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