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High End Luxury Cars

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  • Here is the link...you need to work your way through the used car section on Edmunds to get there for Mercedes.

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/1993/cadillac/allante/778/ratings_jdp- ower.html?tid=edmunds.u.ratings.ratingsbody..4.Cadillac*
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Maybe the analogy is flawed but I believe the 745 offers the all-around better drivers experience. I like the exterior, interior and ride better. If one took the "drivers connectedness" out of the equation, I would fully agree. But people buy BMWs because they expect it to be a top notch drivers car, not a top notch passengers car.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Billy Crystal as Doc in Analyze This?

    State where who said what? New York? New Jersey? Mississippi?? Got me there.

    You, YOU… you're good!
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    The botched wedding in Florida? Hurry up it's killing me!
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    I haven't driven a 7 in a while but I certainly tend to agree with you. But if you're looking for more luxury ride than drivers car it works the other way around. It's really a matter of preferences and its nice to have choices in each sector. I said a long time ago - no one really can go wrong with any car here. This is an all-star team.

    designman - The wedding in Florida?? No - Alice - but substitute George Washington for Clemenza - in the episode where Ralph says men run the world. Or are you wondering about the state? Hint - they had to cross the river to kill Paulie - the same river that many commuters from that state do every morning to go to work. Hey - Billy C was hillarious in Ananlyze This. The shark scene was great.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Ah-ha, you're talking in serious riddles there. Hey, you know what's wrong with MBs these days and why they're on a course correction with quality? It's because Schrempp found this thing in the engines that interrupts the flow in the dynaflow! (Vacuum cleaner episode)

    Joyzy. No?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Wish you could hear me laughing. Now that is great - and merc1 will have no response for that one.

    Yes - the great state of NJ.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Love the yucks. Shoot, gotta hit the sack... another long day tomorrow. There are fields to be plowed, seeds to be sown!

    You all be nice now. NICE!!!
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    See I do understand the "business" side more than you think...lol!

    I agree they should fix their house in private and if they do it right the results will follow, no need to state them beforehand.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Mike I'm going to do this point by point so you don't get any more confused.

    "When I talked about 250 HP that was for Pre 1993...Since I am sticking to comparing 93 Allante to 93 SL500 in order to try and avoid your dancing around issues by switching between models and year."

    Ok pre-1993, you mean from the 1987-1992 models right? The 500SL came out for 1990 Mike and it had a 322hp DOHC V8. Fact. It outperformed any pre or post Northstar Allante quite easily. Fact. The 1993 500SL had the same engine as the 1990, 1991, and 1992 models, why this is so hard for you to grasp is beyond me. The 500SL later renamed (along with all Mercedes) the SL500 was the SAME CAR from 1990-2002. My point is that the R129 SL (the chassis code) for the V8 engined 500SL/SL500 from 1990-2002 would outperform any year Allante you'd care to mention. You really can't understand this?

    There is no dancing from model years to do here, the 500SL/SL500 was the same car for 13 MY years (1990-2002)!

    "Support for the Allante...There was a young man who wrote about his fathers Allante and how much he liked it.

    Wow, and the car got cancelled anyway. Find a knowledgeable source the put the 500SL over the Allante and then post. People can like whatever they want, obviously. Doesn't mean they have a clue about the vehicle.

    No one here agrees with you about the Allante being superior to the SL. An owner of just then Allante (and not having even driven the SL like you haven't) doesn't qualify as an expert to anyone but themsleves. The industry put the SL at the top of the class then as they do now. If Edmund's editors said anything like what you're saying about the Allante and previous SL it obviously goes in the "what were they thinking" tank with Motor Trend naming the 1991 Chevy Caprice their "car of the year". A completely off-base view and not supported by any other automotive source. That alone tells you that it was a mistake.

    "At to the sales numbers in the US...the Mercedes SL500 sold a little less then 800 and the Allante sold 6700...Your figures made my point...Prior to 93 I don't believe there was an SL500. But with Mercedes funky way of labeling their cars ...Who knows and for this comparison it really doesn't matter."

    Where do you get this stuff? Didn't you read the link I gave you? The 500SL/SL500 (since you can't seem to understand it is the same car) sold 1721 units in 1993. Fact. Again the numbers:

    Model
    Year U.S. Sales
    1990 2,830
    1991 6,061
    1992 5,355
    1993 1,721
    1994 3,118
    1995 4,721

    My source for this is MBSUSA.COM, please give your source for the 800 units you say MB sold for 1993. Otherwise I'll go by the what the people who sold the car says. These are U.S. sales not worldwide sales and it says that clear as day. Are you saying that MBUSA is lying?

    "Prior to 93 I don't believe there was an SL500

    OMG. Prior to 1993 there was a 500SL which was merely renamed the SL500 along with every other Mercedes, it was the same exact car.

    "I still haven't been able to determine the performance figures for the 1993 500SL ...Yes I did look at the chart by it doesn't give the year of the car on the chart that shows 0-60 times.

    Wait a minute, you looked at the chart for the performance numbers but you didn't look up above (on the same chart) to see the sales numbers only to come back and fabricate this 800 units in the US for sales?

    When you read "the chart" you didn't see this:

    "Body Style 129, Introduced to U.S. Fall 1989, Name changed to SL500 in Fall 1993."

    It clearly states this at the bottom of the sales numbers. If this doesn't clear up the naming and model year confusion for you then it is hopeless. It was the same car from 1990-2002!

    Like I said before when I get time I'll look through the mags and find the comparo.

    M
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Merc, sun's up... you could lose your immortality.

    Hey, what's with the mood swings in those SL numbers? I think I noticed the same post '95. Must be a fickle roadster factor.
  • hjcanterhjcanter Posts: 31
    Audi in first place! I can't wait to read the article. I recently placed an order on a SWB A8, so I am giving up 5" of legroom. No need to drive the limo! Lot's of space anyway.
  • Merc:

    You say FACT is outperformes the 93 Allante...What are the Numbers...Lets see them.

    You say lets compare any year Allante to the 500SL...OK...Compare the 93 500SL to the 93 Allante...LETS SEE THE NUMBERS...LETS SEE A LINK

    In your previous post the chart showed 700+ units and you said that was US sales???? I accept 1700+ for the SL500....Allante sold 6700 in 93

    WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS FOR THE 93 SL500/500SL????? LESS TALK AND MORE SHOW PLEASE...

    P.S the chart I looked at for the SL did not specify model years as I have already said in previous messages. OR...I did not know how to read the chart.

    AGAIN..WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS FOR THE 93 SL500 OR 500SL WHATEVER.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    michael_mattox:

    Except for mechanical quality, your link shows, the Allante is not that great for Body & INterior quality.

    I don't know man, you keep asking Merc1 to bring up facts about the SL being better than the Allante. But you know what? I don't see much facts from you either. Links to reviews from both cars would be good. Better yet, the SL vs. Allante would be good. The Edmunds link doesn't tell all that much except the Allante's Body & INterior quality stank.
  • Max:

    At least you have seen some facts from me....Apparently you looked at just the figures you wanted to ....It is the over 5 year figures that matter and you are obviously discussing something else.

    P.S. the Allante figures were almost exactly the same as the $100,000 500SLs numbers...My point was that all this Mercedes built like a tank stuff from Merc. was a little overboard at least compared to Allante.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    michael,

    The tank like stuff is not overboard. Even when the C5 Corvette Convertible came out, every magazine was comparing it's solidity level to the SL500s, which was considered up until recently the benchmark for convertible solidity.

    The JD power mechanical quality or interior ratings say nothing about solidity.
  • Max

    JDPOWER

    4-5 yrs. Allante

    Mechanical Dependability 5 out of 5 (SL was the same)

    Body & Interior 3 out of 5 (SL was 4 out of 5)

    Feature and Accessory 4 out of 5 (SL was the same)

    I owned my Allante for over 11 years It was tight as a drum when I sold it. (only had 79,000 miles on it.) Because I owned one and Because most people are not very familiar with them there is a lot of mis-information about them.

    The 93 was the fastest front wheel drive car in the world but not as fast as the modified XJR-15 which sold for 1 million and went 0-60 in 4.5 seconds.

    I still think the Allante is far more beautifull then the SL...The Allante actually still looks fresh and a look at the 93 SL makes it's age obvious.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Unfortunately the Allante is ugly, those old Mercedes/BMWs are the benchmarks of luxury cars for their time period.
  • shapiro:

    We are all entitled to our opinion...No matter how mis-informed we may be.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Mattox - The Allante was a bold failing move, the Mercedes had it all over the Allante. In spite of the dream to think it was otherwise.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Listen, Michael had the car for quite some time, he loved it and it served him well. We need closure on this or they'll have to wheel us all away in straight jackets.

    "Somebody get a dictionary and look up this friggin word 'closure'."

    Ljflx, gotta beat on who said it?
  • People keep repeating that, expecting that if said often enough everyone will believe them...I KNOW BETTER.

    If you truly believe what you are saying ...where is the proof.
  • Some of the things the Allante can do

    it can sense the onset of traction loss and apply pulsed braking EVEN WHILE THE DRIVER KEEPS A FOOT ON THE ACCELERATOR.

    It can electronically cut out up to five of the eight clyinders to provideadditional slowing power, and bring them back on line when traction has been restored.

    It shifts its four-speed transmission electronically, guided by a computer that actually anticipates each shift based on the driver's demands. If you are driving agressively the car anticipates that and the Powertrain Control Module holds the car in each gear a little longer for better acceleration but when you want to drive sedately the computer recognizes that too and shifts eariler, saving gas and engine wear.

    The Allante, in an emergency, can drive for miles with an empty radiator, cutting cylinders out in rotation just before they overheat and then switching them back in as they cool.

    But what the Allante mostly is, is really, really fast, the fastest front-wheel drive car in the world, the 32 valve, 4.6 liter V8 engine, which Cadillac calls the Northstar, is just a detuned raching engine, with aluminum pistons (to save weight) and a fuel-injection system built of nylon, magnesium and spaceage plastics intended to insulate the incoming fuel from the heat of the cylinder head. "the beauty of this system," in the estimation of J. David Powell, and engineering professor at Stanford," is that the fuel is much cooler, allowing a more dense air/fuel charge into the combustion chamber for additional horsepower," In practical terms this means that the 1993 Allante will go from 0-60 in 6.9 sec. That is pretty fast although not as fast as a specially modified Jaguar XJR-15 which will do it in 4.5 sec. But that costs $1 Million dollars.

    FROM MACHINE DESIGN June 11, 1992

    The engine is quiet, even with the hood up, and the car is quiet while running. Cadillac designers' work on lowering wind-noise paid off, because with the top down I was able to hold conversations without yelling.

    The Twisty mountain roads allowed me to test the car's real-time damping and speed-sensitive steering. Damping system sensors measure the relationship of the wheels to the car body to reduce body pitch and roll during cornering, front-end dive during braking, and lift during acceleration. The speed-sensitive steering is continuously variable, so changes are imperceptible, even during the slow-down/speedup of hairpin turns.

    All together, the car inspires confident driving.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    And still this pointless war rages on. Mike, buddy, you need to give it up. You're not convincing any of us that the Allante was an SL killer, just as the motoring press was not convinced, and the general public was not convinced. When you have a superior product that is doing well, you don't kill it off, plain and simple. The "sport light" cars have been around, in their various nomenclatures for more than half a century. The Allante seriously pales compared to that kind of dynasty of historic automobiles (show me a $3,000,000 Allante 40 years from now.) It was a nice try, but nice try isnt good enough, and its fate was sealed.
  • lEXUSGUY:

    IF you had not posted again on this subject, I would not feel obligated to do so.

    When you say any of us ...do you presume to speak for the rest of the board?

    Based on the figures provided in 1993 Allante sold 6700 units and the 500SL sold 1700 units...Why Cadillac discontinued production I do not know and didn't understand at the time....I do know that Cadallic engineers had finally figured out how to have a fully retractable top without losing luggage space they were scheduled to introduce the car in 1995 when cadillac pulled the plug.

    40 years from now show me a 3 million dollar 1993 500SL...It is more likely that I will be able to show you that 3 mill Allante. It is still a beautifull car today. The 93 500SL looks dated today.
  • upon further reflection I do recall that GM had just gotten a new CEO and he pulled the plug on ALLANTE over stern objections by Cadillac.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    You've got me on that one.
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    Pat? Help!!
  • Warthog:

    The Allante is a high end luxury car, we talk about BMW Past and present, Merc, Jag, Rolls, Bentley, Audi etc. and all manor of Luxury Cars of all ages here.

    I would also note that myself and Lexus were two of the few posters here for the last couple of days.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Mattox,

    Articles saying the ALlante was good doesn't mean it was better than the Mercedes SL. Those are excerpts of just the Allante and none of them say the Allante is something along the line of.."the best convertible money can buy"..."The most solid convertible"..."the best built convertible".

    From everything I remember reading about the SL from 89? to the late 90s said it was one of the best convertibles money can buy with unmatched solidity. I don't need proof, everyone hear can pretty much say they have read the same thing in magazines. Besides, you say Car and Driver rated the Allante over the SL500, but where's the proof? You haven't shown any proof/facts either. I think if you went down to a Public library and pulled out every article about the previous SL, they will pretty much tell you the SL was the most solid convertible on the market. Also, read some C5 Corvette Convertible articles, which will mention the SL, but no Allante in reference to body rigidity.

    And no one is saying the Allante is flimsy or something, just saying the SL was the benchmark for convertibles in the 90s.
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