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High End Luxury Cars

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  • Max:

    I do have an edge on you...I owned an Allante and drove a couple of SLs before I bought the Allante.

    I am not sure of the Magazine but I thought Car & Driver but could have been one of the other majors, Rated the 93 Allante above the SL in a comparison ...I believe Allante also got a top rating in a prior year but I don't remember for sure....

    I have been to the local Library but their computer listing of reviews only go back to 94...The same also seems to be true of the internet Can't find much on either of these cars....They were limited production special cars....

    I think Three things seperated the 93 Allante from the 93 500SL....1)Luggage space and room generally, you could actually tour with the car take two sets of golf clubs or ski's and still bring luggage and a significent other. 2) The Northstar system and the innovations mentioned in a previous post. 3) It was a far more Beautiful car.

    I should add that the front wheel drive was a godsent in snowy CT where I lived when I bought the car....With Blizzacks It could pretty much handle any conditions.
  • But not when you're reading the same crud over and over again. This debate has gone on far too long.

    Michael_Mattox, you have stated many good reasons as to why YOU chose to buy the Allante over the SL. You think the Allante was the better car, but no one else here agrees with you so just leave it be. The great thing is that we can all disagree with eachother, but we don't have to battle things out like this. Trying to give reason why YOU think the Allante is the better car is a lost cause, because try as you might, no one is supporting you in your views. Just because it was a better car for you, does not mean it is the better car for others. And hey it's not 1993 anymore, so why don't we talk about the cars of today & tomorrow, and not the cars of yesteryear?

    Let's change the topic. Has anyone seen the new Toyota sedan that came out in Japan? It is called the Crown Majesta. What do you guys think? Here it is
    image
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    Kinda reminds me of a Maybach in the rear. The interior is gorgeous though.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    This is amazing. (Last Post)

    "In your previous post the chart showed 700+ units and you said that was US sales???? I accept 1700+ for the SL500....Allante sold 6700 in 93."

    No chart or link I ever posted said anything like that. Period. It said (they MBUSA.COM) said 1721 sales for 1993. End of story. You said 700 or 800 in your confused state. The link didn't change from one posting to another, you simply got confused. The only reason the Allante sold 6700 copies is because it had a 18 month-long 1993 model year. The 93 model was intro'd in the spring of 1992 and you're acting like that doesn't make a difference when adding up model year sales.

    I cannot for the life of me understand how one can appreciate Lexus on one hand and can't accept the truth about a Cadillac on the other.

    The Allante was cancelled because:

    1. It debuted with a truly sorry 140hp V8.
    2. It was fwd in a sea of rwd competitors.
    3. It had the worlds most ridiculously cheap convertible top.
    4. It in the begining was built like an outhouse.
    5. It never sold because of the above.
    6. The car had a ridiculously expensive production process that involved flying bodies-in-white from Itality to Detroit, how stupid could GM have been. This costs them $$$$ that they didn't have back then.

    When you look at the two cars just on paper it seems to be common sense to everyone else that the Allante at best wasn't even competitive with the 500SL, at worst it was junk.

    It has taken 10+ posts to understand the SL was the same car from 1990 onward and that the SL500 and 500SL is the same exact car. Once it was proven that the Allante having sold 20K units in 7 model years compared to 23K for just 6 with the SL, the theory change to the 1993 model year. It was implied that the 1993 Allante could outpeform any SL, yet when the 600SL was mentioned it was never heard about again.

    "I think Three things seperated the 93 Allante from the 93 500SL....1)Luggage space and room generally, you could actually tour with the car take two sets of golf clubs or ski's and still bring luggage and a significent other. 2) The Northstar system and the innovations mentioned in a previous post. 3) It was a far more Beautiful car.

    1. Nobody cared, obviously.
    2. The 32V DOHC V8 in the 500SL still outperformed it. The 600SL V12 would obliterate it.
    3. Purely subjective.

    This is the what the superiority case is based on?

    The Allante was never placed over the 500SL in any comparo by any of the major U.S. mags. Those being Car and Driver, Road and Track, Automobile, Motor Trend, or any others like Autoweek, Sports Car International or any other sane publication anywhere.

    Car and Driver placed the Allante over the 300SL, not the 500SL or 600SL in a comparo, which I'll have to find now because this is a truly stunning denial of everything. The only thing that the Allante was superior in was accleration, obviously.

    If this had been a Mercedes vs a Lexus with the Mercedes having the track record of the Allante, you'd believe everything written about the Lexus being superior. It is amazing you haven't said anything about the market, press or anything else you use when saying Lexuses are better. It is painfully obviously that those usual Lexus specialities can't be used. Nothing in any of those articles say anything about the SL, much less than the Allante was better.

    Lastly, you never even drove the 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 SL. How could you possibly know how it drove or was built? You prove that you had no experience with the 1990-2002 SL because everyone who ever drove the car will tell you it was indeed built like a tank, heck your own ratings for the Allante showed it to have a inferior body and interior.

    The boast about having the fastest front wheel drive car in the world is the silliest thing in the automotive world. Nobody, and I mean nobody else was dumb enough to put 300hp to the front wheels of a luxury roadster, in short.....nobody else was competiting so the Allante was the fastest in a class of one. Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche all had 2-door cars during those years and you didn't see any of them saddled with fwd.

    The SL model you drove was designed in the late sixties for a 1971 debut and was out of date by the time the Allante came on the scene in 1987.

    "In practical terms this means that the 1993 Allante will go from 0-60 in 6.9 sec."

    I know for a fact that the 500SL was faster than that. I know you don't believe it without the comparo, and I promise I won't post again until I have the comparo in front of me. I'll just put up the numbers and their notes, none of my opinion.

    The sad thing is that I still have the 500SL roadtest by Motorweek from 1990 on tape. Don't know how to get that on here.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I thought that was the JDM version of the new Acura RL for a minute. It does indeed favor the Maybach from the rear. Curiously there a number of cars with this rear end, trunk-hump styling theme. Even Hyundai's XG350 looks similar:

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    This is not a good styling trend, imo.

    The best view of the Crown Majesta is from the side because from the front and rear looks like an Acura RL or something Korean. They (Koreans) seem prefer a look that says updated Lincoln or something at least at the rear and unfortunately the Maybach has a similarly unattractive rear.

    M
  • I rather like the trunk on the Maybach. I think it looks very elegant. And if you've seen the Spy pics of the New S, which I'm sure you have, the S seems to be going in the direction of the Maybach in the rear. I do agree though, both the XG350 and the Elantra have that trunk shape. I think if done right, such as on the Maybach it looks elegant. Toyota didn't accomplish the same effect if you ask me with the Crown Majesta. I think the Maybach needs more work in the front than in the rear, personally.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    This Crown is a very interesting car, though we'll most likely never see it in the NA market. It would obviously step on LS's toes. Previous crowns have been REALLY boring designs, so it is a major step forward in that respect, and yes, the interior is gorgeous. The Koreans still have not developed any sense of style. This can somewhat be excused because of their relatively short time thus far as global players, but the blatant rip-offs of Japanese and European designs always pale to the originals and make them look as second rate as they still are. The worst of which that comes to mind is the Kia Sorento, which steals so much from the RX300 that I was a little surprised Toyota didnt take them to court over it. I guess since the RX was going to be replaced when the Sorento showed that they figured it wasnt worth it.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    We had a trivia topic on the News and View board once.

    I asked: Under what sigle brand can you find a Maybach, Saab, and Ferrari all for less than the originals?

    The Answer: Hyundai.

    The Elantra GT is a dead-ringer for the old Saab 900/9-3 5-door hatchbacks. The Tiburon GT is a Ferrari 456GT clone and the XG300/350 is your Maybach knockoff.

    Their sister brand Kia has what has to be the largest number of borrowed styling ques of any car on the market in their Amanti model. The front is either Jaguar or Mercedes, and the back is either Lincoln or Buick. What a mess of a car.

    Lexusguy,

    I tried not to say this, but Toyota of all companies can't take anyone to court because of copied or borrowed styling. In the Chinese market where some Chinese companies have blatantly taken designs from them (GM and Honda too) maybe, but not here. Toyota has too many arguable knock-offs of their own to take anyone to court over anything.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    The front grill is a bit too Acura like. But the side profile, with those beautiful wheels is stunning and looks like a very regal and expensive car. The rear lights and decklid look good on the car but I tend to agree with merc1 that this is not a good overall movement in design. The interior is beautiful and will probably be similar to the next LS. Toyota has never brought the Crown here and if it wasn't for the Lexus styling change I would have thought that it could be the next LS.

    Isn't the Crown the Toyota that has a V-12 or a V-12 option?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    Do we have to go thru this again?

    Please list all the knock-offs Toyota/Lexus makes! I bet you you can only come with 2-3, even somewhat legitimate knock-offs.
  • Prince:

    I am posting only in response to others who insist on telling me what EVERYBODY thinks...If you guys stop I will...How simple could that be.
  • Merc:

    Were are compairing the 1993 Allante with the 1993 SL...Something you seem to be afraid to do.

    1)The car had the Northstar engine with 290 to 295 HP.
    2)It had the advantage of being the fastest FWD car on earth...Was ideal for a touring car in the northern parts of the country.
    3)The top was expensive and well engineered NOTE: you could also get it with a hard top option.
    4)The 93 Allante we are discussing had a build quality comparable to the 93 Mercedes 500 SL as evidenced by the data I have posted from Edmonds.
    5)In 1993 (the yr. we are reviewing) the 500SL sold 1700+ units and the Allante sold 6700...hard to make the case that nobody bought it.
    6)The car sold for $40,000 less then the 500SL. Shipping those bodies in by 747 didn't seem to deminish the Allante's price advantage.

    Even on paper the 93 Allante was more technically advanced then the 500 was more practical because of the advanced traction system and fwd
    and the massave trunk (when was not made smaller when the top was down) (even had a pass through from the trunk) and storage. The SL was a fine car but as you have stated was outdated (and looked it) and was just not as good as the ALLANTE in 93. I am sure it was updated in later yrs. (at least I hope so)

    The fact that the SL was an established prestige make and only managed to out sell the Allante by 3,000 units over those years is not a very impressive argument for your side.

    Find the consumer report link or cut and paste...I will have to see it for the 1993 model year....Note I believe Allante rated above the Mercedes in a yr. prior to 93 in addition to it's obvious superiority in 93. Perhaps 1990 was that yr...

    Never said I did drive all those model years...your method of attempting to make your point is to jump from model and year to different models and years, rather then make a straight compairson...I am sticking to the 93 model year in the Allante and the Mercedes 500SL.

    It is true putting a lot of HP into fwd was very creative and innovative ...The fact that no one else COULD do it is a testiment to good old American engineering....IT WORKED GREAT. The Car is classically beautiful even today.

    Don't care about the 1990 SL we are compairing the 93 models...No more bait and switch..
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    I thought you said you were going to let this thing go? Yet you keep bringing it up.

    "It is true putting a lot of HP into fwd was very creative and innovative ...The fact that no one else COULD do it is a testiment to good old American engineering....IT WORKED GREAT. The Car is classically beautiful even today."

    How is putting a V8 for FWD duty creative? The only difference between this and most other FWD cars was that they had a max of 6-cylinders. It's not a big deal, nor is it creative, just because you fit a V8 under the hood! And it's not that "no else COULD do it", it is that no one else WANTED to do it. The luxury car class has always been about RWD, the only difference is that it took GM nearly 2 decades to figure it out and is now finally switching to RWD.

    Personally, I don't think the Allante was all that good looking back then to begin with and was no match for the Benz SL500/320/600, which still look absolutely beautiful today, 15 years after introduction.

    "The SL was a fine car but as you have stated was outdated (and looked it) and was just not as good as the ALLANTE in 93. I am sure it was updated in later yrs. (at least I hope so)"

    The SL was outdated? Please stop! The SL500 didn't even become outdated in 1998, which is why it was still selling strongly at the end of it's life-cycle vs. the Allante which entered car heaven only a few years after introduction. The SL in the same body style lasted for over a decade.
  • Max:

    It is obvious that people want to keep discussing this issue...Including you...when people stop posting on this issue I will also...I am only responding to others.

    Nobody else did do it...Nobody else could do it..Cadallic did it and created the fastest FWD car in the world.

    Looks can be subjective..We obviously disagree about the Allante's looks.

    Cadillac wanted to keep producing the Allante...a new GM CEO took it out of production...I believe it was a mistake. The Allante was in the same body for it's 7 yr. production run. It was always more beautiful then the SL..In it's time.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Okay, let's draw the line right here.

    No more posting about the Allante - that seems to be what folks SAY they want even if it is not what they are doing.

    So let's all agree to move on now.
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    The only car produced by Toyota that has a V12 engine is the Century. The 4.3L V8 engine is the top of the line engine for the Crown Majesta. The Century is too stodgy to be considered a High performance Luxury Car. The 5.0L V12 engine in the Century only produces 275 Hp due to Japanese law that restricts Hp to 275. However, at nearly $100K, the Century is the most expensive Japanese made car.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Thanks - I get the two cars confused.
  • I made the mistake of shopping at three dealerships. Two within 100 miles, and one in town. Saturday, I drove 90 miles with the two trades to finalize a deal, and the MB I was purchasing had a dead battery. They wanted me to do the paperwork on a "dead" vehicle that I had never driven. It was on the showroom floor.

    The local dealer is giving my grief about buying out of town, but they have less selection and aren't as generous with the trade-in allowance.

    What should be a fun process, is not.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "Japanese law that restricts Hp to 275" That law doesnt exist anymore. If the Century is still only making 275hp, its because Toyota hasnt bothered to unrestrict the engine. The Japanese have been playing games around their own HP caps for quite a long time, with Lancer Evos and WRXs in reality producing well over 300hp, and I think they figured it was about time to just give up the "your not fooling anybody" charade already.
  • sapparosapparo Posts: 68
    More pics. of the Crown Majesta, same engine as the LS. Styling is somewhat stodgy. Rear trunk looks like the 7 series toned down. Interiors are super plush, check out the swiveling buckets. Car and Driver calls them a "drunken orgy of gadgets".

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  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    Business Week's latest edition has an article on this. Toyota gaining in 8th, Mercedes staying put at 11th, BMW narrowly ahead of Honda and Ford at 17th. For what it's worth.
  • scott:

    I flew 1500 miles to get the best buy on my LS no problem with my local dealer...and...It was a lot of fun buying it. Lexus is known for having terrific dealerships. Maybe it would be fun..Just to drive one.
  • I like it...there is no such thing as too many gadgets...AS LONG AS THEY ALL WORK
  • Where exactly does the Crown Majesta fit in with the line? Is it above or below the LS430? It looks smaller than the LS in my eyes...
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Its hard to tell, Toyota has SO many JDM cars, I probably am only aware of maybe 1\10 of them.
  • sapparosapparo Posts: 68
    This was pulled from an article written in 2000. The black car Royal above is similar to the Lexus GS and share the same engine/drive train. This has the all new 4wd system that the next GS gets here.

    "There are 3 versions of Crown - Majesta, Royal and Athlete. The Athlete is the most sporty, with stiffest suspension setup. Majesta is most luxurious, powered by a 280 hp V8. It also has longer wheelbase. Royal runs middle of the road and is usually the best seller among them. No matter which version, handling is far beyond imagination. Gone is the traditional soft suspension setup, which is replaced with firmer springing and damping. As a result, steering response and body control are greatly improved. Although it is still regarded as comfort-bias by European standard, it is already more driver-bias than other domestic rivals, including Nissan Gloria. In particular, it rolls less and steer with more feel than the Nissan.

    Although the range-topping Majesta is powered by Lexus뭩 4-litre V8, most other Crowns are likely to be ordered with 3.0 inline-6. This 24-valver is actually the same as Supra and Lexus GS300. No matter with or without direct-injection, it output 220 horsepower and 217 lbft of torque. As in Lexus GS, it is silky smooth and quiet. Predictably, Toyota provides no option for manual gearbox, but there are two electronic automatic for choose: 4-speed automatic is smoother; 5-speed Super ECT (with Tiptronic style manual override mode) is quicker."
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    If the local dealer is giving you grief than tell them to get competitive on your trade figures and do a dealer locate on the car that you want or just pass on the deal.

    Some cars are going to be dead on showrooms. The salesman should have know that you were coming and had the thing standing tall and ready to ride. Hopefully, this is less likely to happen at a premium car dealer but it happens. Have them put a brand new battery in it anyway, but that shouldn't be a problem.

    So, you drove 90 miles with two cars? I can't hardly believe that they weren't savvy enough to figure out some way to make you happy and make the deal happen after you went to so much effort.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    dieselbreath,

    re your post 6033 (I was on an extended vacation, sorry for the late reply), I think that modern diesels are indeed very impressive...compared to older deisels and current gas ICEs. But unless someone is doing 100% highway driving, hybrids are going to be better, imho. Read this: http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/business/10877346- 48278220.xml?banew and also the Automobile magazine article from 1-2 months back.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Ive read that some of the older first gen Prius and Insight type hybrids are prone to more engine problems than their gas counterparts, but this is apparently something Honda and Toyota have gotten under control with their newest Prius and Civic hybrids. The article also mentioned that VW's diesels were having problems as well and that this was "curious, as diesel tech has been around much longer." There was no mention of VW QC, or should I say, total lack thereof.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Primo Sindone (Paul Vitti's archrival) played by Chazz Palminteri. Same movie – Analyze This.

    And now from Analyze That...
    "Paul, I think we've had enough sahzeech for one day."

    ;-)
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