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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • lexus0622lexus0622 Posts: 27
    Of course we all saw that. But you weren't supposed to mention it! Didn't you get the secret message?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "I hope you understand my point that if additional value (prestige in this case) is present to offset the higher price, then unit sales need not be lower than a lower-price, lower-prestige product."

    I never denied that prestige favors Mercedes-Benz and it does make up for some sales of course, but this is only the case if the person can afford ($$$) to buy into this prestige. Simply put if you don't have the money prestige means nothing. You seem to imply that everyone can just buy up if they see the prestige, and that simpy isn't the case. Prestige or not, 20K is still 20K and if you don't have the option of stepping up all the prestige in the world doesn't mean anything.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    First of all, 20k doesn't reflect the real world, even at the S430/LS430 level. It's more like 13k there, and less (or nonexistent) at the E/GS, C/ES, ML/RX levels. Just go to the autonation.com website, search for the S or LS among the whole network, and click on 'msrp' to sort by price...the median in-stock S430 is $75,380, the median in-stock LS is $62,189. I know that looking at inventory isn't a perfect guage, but annecdotally, I don't see many people on edmunds or cl talking about shopping for base LSs.

    If someone is getting a loan, what does that 13k difference mean, a 36 month rather than 30 month loan, with equal payments each month? If someone is leasing, how much does it mean...a 4 year rather than 3 year lease or something? Personally I've always paid cash, maybe ljflx or someone can help out with the lease discussions.

    But I will grant that some INDIVIDUALS may be priced out of the market by the S430. Even if they don't want to buy an E500 instead, the mistake you make in your thinking is not considering the other side of the coin. To wit, there are some INDIVIDUALS who just won't consider Lexus because for them, they must have THE highest-prestige mainstream luxury sedan, period. Lexus just can't be considered, for such individuals. So just as price may exclude some individuals from the S430, lack of prestige may exclude some individuals from the LS.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Lease differences in some cases eliminate the MSRP differences altogether. Phaetons and A8's at higher MSRPs can be had at lower lease prices than custom lux LS30's and much lower than ultra lux LS430's which are cloesr to their MSRP's. No one seems to care. I paid $40 more a month for my $62K LS430 in 2001 then I would have paid for a $73K A8. I knew I was getting the better car and three years later that LS is worth more than the A8. People who were leasing ultras in 2001 were paying far more than comparably priced A8's and BMW's and in some cases more than am S430. Ultras at $71K in 2001 were going above $1300 a month whereas the $75K S430 I priced was around $1250 per. That was because Lexus was uncertain how well its first $70k+ car would retain value. The joke was that it turned out to be the most in demand LS back then.

    I said before a $77K 7-series was around the same lease price as the $65K LS430 two months ago when I leased but I had no interest. Finally the S430 was about $180 more than my 2001 LS430 and the price difference was $13K MSRP. The S500 price difference was about $350 more in 2001 then now but that MSRP price difference was $22K. To anyone above $250-300K in income those lease price differences would likely not be a big deal unless they were fully loaded with high mortgages on a first home or were carrying pretty high mortgages on a first and second one.

    My personal belief and experience are that the people reaching for prestige are not the S-class buyers but the E-class buyers. That's why Lexus will more easily convert an S-class buyer to an LS than an E-class buyer to a GS or LS. The other feeling I've picked up is a simple "in denial" thought process that anyone can match or exceed the revered Germans. Many of the people I've met in the past that put Lexus down had never even sat in a Lexus car. When they finally did they were amazed and in some cases converted over on their next purchase.
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    http://www.batfa.com/new_car_toyota_century.htm.

    http://english.auto.vl.ru/catalog/toyota/century/1997_4/photo/892- 2/

    This car could give the MB S600 a run for its money; although the exterior looks like it is from the 80's. The inside is very nice though. Lexus should consider this car as a spring board for their new super sedan.
  • Merc:

    The vast majority of LS owners can affort an extra $20 or $30,000 for an S class...Many have owned the S class in the past...

    I went with the LS because of higher quality and dependability...I think you have acknowledged those qualities in the LS vrs S class in the past.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    For the second time this week, I'll have to echo your words....

    "IMHO, the MB.s aren't class leaders in anything but high price."

    But, Merc1 argues that since the S is averagely priced at $98K, its slow sales is a combination of price and old styling ! Do MB fans not argue that MB styling is much better than the LS, yet use this excuse of the S styling being 4-yrs old as a rationale for its slow sales; and this is compared to the "vanilla" styling of the better selling LS !!! Makes no sense to me using this line of argument. Another angle to consider is that the S and LS have comparable features, and in some cases the S have some features not found in the LS. Examples are the "Pre-Safe" system of MB and the 7-speed (auto) tranny. The LS only just added a 6-speed (auto) and has no "Pre-Safe" like MB. Do these extra geering and gadget make a difference to sales or performance of the S over the LS ? Sales - NO, performance - NO. SO why is MB selling less than the LS ? The higher prestige of the MB *may* justify its higher price, the better reliability of the LS *may* justify its higher sales. And nothing to do with styling - old, new or vanilla .... Maybe ?
  • scottphillipscottphillip Posts: 249
    Must be last century...

    :-)
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I believe the V12 in the Century is only 5.0 liter. Given that the next LS may, it is rumored, have a 4.5 to 5.0 liter V8, and will definitely have hybrid to further boost performance, I'm not sure I see Toyota/Lexus ever doing anything further with that V12.
  • lexus0622lexus0622 Posts: 27
    Looks like an old Chevy Impala with little ears! Hope I never see one state side. Lexus would be OUT OF THEIR MINDS if they used any design features from this car, period.
  • The Toyota Century compared to a S600 -- what a joke! I agree with scottphillip "must be last century" or maybe last millennium.

    I have seen them in Japan and they are laughable. Absolutely Ghoulish on their best day. They could only legitimately sell in Japan, third-world Asia and some of the former Soviet Union.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Great car for my buddy - merc1.

    I thought it was a Ruussian car when I saw it. Some resemblance to a Mercury also. I think this car will be in its retirement in the near future. But the interior is nice. I also thought the Crown (probably just as bad) was the top Toyota. No I wouldn't lose any sleep over this car in Germany. In fact its a helluva sleeping pill. Hey - maybe its a Lexus decoy strategy.
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    Actually this is not a driver's car at all. If you own one of these cars you are suppose to have it chauffeur driven just like a limo. If you think about it, all Lexuses are rebadged Toyota.

    Toyota Lexus

    Windom Es300/330
    Aristo Gs300/430
    Celsior LS400/430
    Altezza IS300
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    They just haven't used the Lexus name in Japan so they brand those cars as Toyotas. They followed Lexus so the statement is actually made backwards.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Well if a super STS cant take it down, I have little doubt that the next RS6 will. The new 5 has so far appeared to be mostly a disappointment.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "First of all, 20k doesn't reflect the real world, even at the S430/LS430 level. It's more like 13k there, and less (or nonexistent) at the E/GS, C/ES, ML/RX levels. Just go to the autonation.com website, search for the S or LS among the whole network, and click on 'msrp' to sort by price...the median in-stock S430 is $75,380, the median in-stock LS is $62,189. I know that looking at inventory isn't a perfect guage, but annecdotally, I don't see many people on edmunds or cl talking about shopping or base LSs."

    You're right one dealer's inventory isn't a perfect gauge. You're only looking at the S430. The S500 has been the bestselling S-Class for more than a few years since 2000, it is more than 13K over the median LS430. You must not have looked the E-Class and GS' prices either lately. There is certainly a difference there, to even suggest that a price difference is "nonexistent" shows you haven't looked at the prices.

    "But I will grant that some INDIVIDUALS may be priced out of the market by the S430."

    My point exactly! The S500 even more so.

    "To wit, there are some INDIVIDUALS who just won't consider Lexus because for them, they must have THE highest-prestige mainstream luxury sedan, period. Lexus just can't be considered, for such individuals. So just as price may exclude some individuals from the S430,
    lack of prestige may exclude some individuals from the LS."


    Also true, except you're forgetting that person who won't consider the Benz could still buy the LS, but the person who wants the S has to overcome something real....like having the money to buy up. You can always buy down, not up. One issue is easily overcome, the other isn't.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    If Cadillac doesn't step up to the plate with more than 450hp with the STS-V it isn't going to do much against the next M5, RS6 or E55's mid-cycle replacement (read: 6.3L V8 500+hp).

    Say what you want about the 5-Series' styling idrive and what not, but the M5 performance wise is going to inhale this segment and all the rest are going to be hard pressed to compete at least at the track.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    We'll see about that. BMW basically had a free ride for years while M-B, Jaguar and the like made mostly weak competition. I dont know of any plans for Jaguar to do more than 400hp, but Audi and M-B are obviously not content with 2nd and 3rd place anymore. BMW has made quite a few mistakes, and their cross town rivals smell blood on the once invincible auto company. I wouldnt count out Japan either. The new M will come with 340hp stock, and if Lexus goes ahead with their 450hp+ GS"GT", Infiniti will have to do something to match them. The RL could also be capable of significantly more power, if Acura chooses.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    We will definitely have to see what happens because I don't see 450hp doing anything but merely being "competitive" at a time when the Germans are pushing 500hp like it is nothing right now. I'm speaking in terms of the tuner versions of these cars only, not the regular models.

    I really don't think Mercedes was really wasn't concerned about "2nd place" or even considered themselves that with BMW because while BMW took all the magazines wins with the previous 5-Series, the E-Class outsold it in just about every country around the world. The only "free ride" BMW had was with the magazine accolades, not the market. Clearly though the new 5 has stumbled in design, which is keeping the harping about its still-good and class-leading (for right now) dynamics to a minimum. I'm telling you, watch the press put the M5 over on dynamics and completely ignore the things they've negatively harped about in the regular 5-Series models.

    You're right about Audi too, of the Germans I'd watch them the most. The Gallardo's V10 in a A6? Gee whiz that is going to be a car's car.

    The RL won't be in this league unless they get something with more than 6 cylinders.

    It will be very interesting to see what Lexus does also in the way of a hi-po GS, I suspect 450hp won't cut it by the time such a model arrives. Still such performance combined with great fuel economy can't be ignored.

    M
  • Merc:

    The fact that an S class Mercedes cost more, does not mean if you buy an LS 430 you are buying down...expecially since the quality of the LS exceeds that of the S class...
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