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High End Luxury Cars

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  • ejerodejerod Posts: 86
    Guys, Guys, Guys... Like I said, I drive the MB S500, but I'll be honest, it took me a full 6 months to make up my mind between it , the LS430, and the BMW740il. Every single one of these cars are phenomenally engineered. Intead of us letting testosterone get the best of us we should all be counting our blessings that we can afford to drive any of these fine automobiles. Yes I chose the Benz for it's heritage, engineering and styling, but it won my money be one or two votes. Let's breathe, take a minute and realize that to even drive these cars one has to be in the top 1-3% of income earners in the US. That in and of itself is the true blessing. We could all be in Hyundais or worse yet homeless.I'm sure that most of us live in fine homes that these car compliment when we enter our driveways. I didn't buy the Lexus, but if they had a more agressive looking body style I would have.. Happy motoring.
  • xjs5xjs5 Posts: 33
    Choice is subjective.
    Lexus is a valid choice (contender, whatever).
    That is where the objectivity ends.
    It didn't even start. I don't see how it can end.

    -Lexus copied the Mercedes (twice).
    -Whether the S Class has recurring problems or not is not a matter of opinion.
    -Lexus has established a reputation for reliability and durability.
    -Styling is not subjective. Whether you like it or not is subjective.

    Mercedes never has a problem and Lexus has to prove itself? It sounds like a double standard to me.

    BTW, the Pontiac Aztec is gutsy, odd, risk- taking, and not bland. I hope the SC430 has something else going for it.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    I wholeheartedly agree with you. But the competitive fires in all of us is what has made us all successful (I assume) enough to afford these cars in the first place. Thus we are people who are prone to debate their merits. As long as we keep it clean and don't hit below the belt and insult each other, it is healthy. Sometimes it gets a little too emotional but if we are pros we can reign it in - witness Pablo and I in earlier posts today. And maybe, though this is a long-shot, the manufacturers are following some of the debate and draw upon the content to improve their cars. Good luck to you with your S-500. You couldn't have gone wrong or been unhappy with either of the other cars you were evaluating so though it took you 6 months you were always in a no lose situation. Now I wish you can help us out with this 2 feet plus of snow they are expecting up here in the NY/NJ area starting Sunday. I finally got my cars clean and can see my lawn and now more snow.
  • flint350flint350 Posts: 250
    I thought I recalled a comment by you about the car mags. That's what prompted my remark above. In going back, this is what I found in your earlier post, so I stand by what I said:
    "You americans think that Motor Trend and Car and Driver count for a lot. The rest of the world thinks that most of the american publications are so yankee biased, and only care about SUV's and big american V8's."
    Not trying to re-ignite an argument, I was just making a point in a healthy debate.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    I don't see a double standard, since I have mixed in critical coments about all brands. You are being too defensive. And I didn't say a word about Lexus copying Mercedes, so do not mix in comments from someone else.
    And I can't recall saying the Aztec and the SC430 share anything. You are making your own argument up.
  • xjs5xjs5 Posts: 33
    I'm starting to see your logic. You offer both praise and criticism of all brands therefore you do not have a double standard. You didn't say a word about Lexus copying Mercedes. You did not offer comment about Lexus copying Mercedes but you did comment on it when I brought it up. You did not say that the Aztec and the SC430 share anything. I said they do so that is correct. I am making my own arguments up. Yes. This is the best I can do so I hope you will not be offended :)
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    I knew that was the one you were referring to. And if you look at it carefully, I was not critisizing anyone for listening to auto journalists, I was just saying that in my opinion, most of the american car magazines have lost their credibility. Can anyone here say that Motor Trend's Car of the Year or Car and Drivers 10Best is really groundbreaking anymore? They pick what the public wants to here, so in that particular issue, they will sell more copies. But that's another conversation.

    But, I rely heavily upon such publications as Edmunds.com, CAR, Automobile, and Road and Track for my info. And what I read, Lexus has definetly stepped up, but is not the best out there.~ A.R.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    I didn't make a single comment on Lexus copying from Mercedes, either. I am sure all brands look at what the other does, and look at ways of integrating good ideas without making it too obvious.
    And as you can imagine, even though I am not a big fan of the Aztek design, I do think it a great thing that car manufacturers go for more distinct designs.
    And no one doubts the SC430 is a phenomenal car. Very desirable convertible, if I was in the market for a top convertible right now, the Lex would be up there among the 2-3 finalists.
  • denniswadedenniswade Posts: 362
    arcoates: AutoWorld Weekly did a comparison test in their Feb27 issue between the BMW 740iL, Mercedes S430, Jaguar XJ8L and the LS430 in which the BMW came out on top, followed only a half point behind by the Lexus, which they described as having "best in class" fit and finish and ergonomics and a strong engine (it was the quickest of the four). The Mercedes came in third (criticized for its weak engine, transmission, interior ergonomics and interior materials), and the Jaguar a distant fourth (although they loved the style and cache of both the brand and the car).

    pablo: You've never impressed me as being unreasonable, so I don't know what you've said to provoke some of the people here; that said, your comment that "Mercedes' reputation for durability doesn't come from nowhere...Lexus has a while to go until it establishes such a long-lived track record" is partly true -- Mercedes had a reputation for years as the most durable car on the planet, until Lexus raised the bar with their very first LS400. It's been over ten years now, which I think is more than adequate time to establish the validity of people's perceptions about Lexus quality.
  • xjs5xjs5 Posts: 33
    You never said that Lexus copied from Mercedes.
    Ok. This is the right answer.

    This is what you meant in 728. where you also said "don't mix in comments from someone else".

    I did not mix in comments from someone else when I talked about your comments.

    'And, visually, I see no similarit- between the Lex430 and the MercS class.' 700

    These are your comments.

    Did I say you said that Mercedes copied Lexus?

    Here's what I meant when I said"You did not offer comment about Lexus copying Mercedes but you did comment on it when I brought it up. " 729 :

    You did not bring up [the subject] of Lexus copying Mercedes but you did comment [on the subject] when I brought it up (see above) and you implied that it was not the case.

    Mercedes was daring. Lexus was bland.
    If Lexus copied Mercedes, both would have to be daring or bland, since we were talking about the
    styling- the objective facts of the styling (the ones that you did not see), daring styling, bland styling- not the same thing.

    When I bring it up, you change your tune.
    'I'm sure they do, so what.'

    Some human kindness might be in order. My post was reconciliatory. My post was friendly. Maybe you can spend 10 seconds thinking about what
    other people might reasonalby mean instead of insisting on what YOU REALLY mean all the time and calling people "defensive" when they get frustrated.

    I apologize to the board for boring you to death :(
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    ...there's no test, and truly no animosity on my side. You seem under the impression I dilsike or attack Lexus unfairly, when in fact I know it is a brand I have a lot of respect for. Mr denniswade has a very valid point when he says Lexus has established a high bar for reliability. I have not disputed that anywhere. That said, I also know Mercedes does not all of a sudden have a reputation for quirky and oft-breaking cars - that is an overzealous statement.

    And I am not sure where you go with the Lexus copying Mercedes argument. I seem to sense you mean that since I mentioned the new Mercedes S class is daring, to *you* Lexus copied from Mercedes and thus must be considered a refreshing design, too. On this matter, all personal opinions are qually valid. But to me the new Lex LS430 looks a lot like the old LS400, and not at all like a new Merc S-class. That is just my opinion, and not something I want to try to establish as universal law.
  • ejerodejerod Posts: 86
    Yeah, you're right about competitive fires. I can hardly go to a function without someone asking " and what is it that you do ? " That's one thing I do enjoy about the heritage of Mercedes, as they said in the Edmunds Review "big Mercedes Benz Sedans scream success!" I know I know, I own a Lexus product too, the 99 GS 300 my wife drives and I love that car too!!! But I drove by the MB dealership the other day and lo and behold a CLK55 on the showroom floor!!! Now to talk to wife into test driving that baby to see maybe if she's tired of the GS. If not, then the Lexus SC430 is due out this month, that should be interesting to. The best thing about being blessed with the talent and education to be successful is the toys one can buy.. as a friend of mine always responds.. "Life is good!!!!"
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    ... my portfolio, for one, has been hammered to the point where I have put my plans to buy a (used) Rolls Corniche on hold for now. This stuff is scary. Things continue this way, and I will have to work again for a salary, as opposed to working for fun... :-) Now that is a novel concept... :-) <- Kinda bitter smile there, though...

    And a close friend of mind works in a Jag dealership (you know you've bought to many cars and paid too much for them when your sales guy becomes one of your close friends...!), and he tells me things *suck* in the luxury car sales sector. Our CEO wanted to buy some spceial 7-series Beemer, and was initially told he'd have to wait a year, now he gets calls with a discounted offer every week... :-)
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    My portfolio was hammered to and in fact I don't know anyone's who hasn't been. Hang in there though - some companies are really undervalued including Daimler. Greenspan kept rates too high too long but that's a subject for another board. When I make purchase decisions I do it on spendable money (take home pay) and not based on the portfolio which is subject to such volatility.
  • escargoescargo Posts: 8
    It's great to be able to argue over such esoteric things as which luxury sedan is best. I agree that they are all outstanding cars, but I had to go with the Mercedes S 430. Although none of them are perfect and my Mercedes has some things I would like changed, its a great car in the classic tradition of Mercedes.

    Although everyone seems to think the BMW is the ultimate performance machine, I just did not like its understated exterior appearance and its "feel every bump in the road" suspension. I'm more of a luxury and style guy than sheer performance freek.

    As for the Lexus, I agree that they have helped "raise the bar" in luxury car performance, but something about seeing "Toyota" stamped all over component parts under the hood just turned me off. In addition, I am a tall guy and did not seem to have the same head and leg room in the Lexus.

    As for the Audi and the Jag, they were not even serious considerations because of reputations for mechanical problems. I admit these reputations may be no longer warranted, but everyone has heard the stories about Jags being in the shop all the time and I have friends who have owned Audis in the past who had frequent problems.

    Maybe it's just my low class upbringing, but I can't seem to recall seeing a Saudi prince or a European Monarch riding in a Lexus, but I have seen quite a few in a Mercedes. Need I say more?
  • wbwynnwbwynn Posts: 246
    The LS430 has more front headroom, legroom, and overall height than your S430. Check out the specs on Carpoint yourself.
  • escargoescargo Posts: 8
    Thanks for the tip, wbwynn. When I was shopping, I didn't get a chance to see the new LS 430, just the LS 400. If the LS 430 truly has more leg and headroom than the LS 400 I'll have to take another look at it next time, although I'm not sure that alone would change my mind. As for the specs, I'm not sure how they come up with those measurements. I've sometimes discovered that I fit better into a car that supposedly has the same or less room than one which I fit less comfortably into. In particular, Japanese manufacturers seem more inclined to write off tall guys like me.
  • shehzadshehzad Posts: 52
    Just about the Saudi Princes-first of all, there's so many princes that it's really not and exaggeration to say they're a dime a dozen. I live very close the Prince Bandar, the Saudi Ambassador to the U.S., who is also a prince, and I've seen him driving an LS400--in addition to some other phenomenal cars that I'll never ever be able to afford. Moreover, if you ever go to Saudi Arabia yourself, lexus's are just as popular over there as Mercedes. I'm not such a bigwig that I know if any of the lexuses I've seen in saudi are driven by princes, but if we accept my premise that there are a lot of saudi princes, and lexuses are like camrys over there, I think it's a fair assumption that some princes drive them. I'm not really much of a lexus guy myself, but just wanted to set the record straight.
  • ejerodejerod Posts: 86
    Well I'm blessed, I haven't lost a dime in the markets. Haven't been in the markets for nearly 3 years. ( Thank God). I'm happy as a pig in slop right about now. Everyone I know is crying the blues about the market and looking for Greenspan and Bush to do something. I on the other hand am looking forward to shopping for bargains that other's can't afford because of their losses. I wouldn't want to be a broker or CFP right now...lol
  • xjs5xjs5 Posts: 33
    The Emperor of Japan is certainly not a European but he is an emperor and he is driven in a Toyota Crown...lol
  • xjs5xjs5 Posts: 33
    which brings up an interesting point- the A8, 7 Series, and S Class (XJ8?) are flagships and the LS430 is not.
  • escargoescargo Posts: 8
    I understand that the 7 series Beamer will be redesigned for 2002. Does anybody know what the new model is going to look like? I guess if you're not already on the order waiting list it may be hard to get one for a while after they come out.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    What do you mean? Are you saying the flagship car or vehicle is the LX470 truck? Or is the flagship the Japanese version of the LS430 which I assume is the Toyota Crown. Regardless I believe Toyota markets the LS430 in America at least, as its flagship car but I could be wrong.

    Ejerod - I'm still a lot better off in the market than out of it over a three year period but I'd love to have the past year back.

    escargo - LS 430 is more roomy for front passengers but the S-Class should be more roomy in back given the extra 7 inches of car length. LS430, believe it or not, has more trunk room if that would have mattered to you.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    ...measurements do not tell the entire story. Perceived interior rrom has a lot to do with the way the ergonomics simply fit your very own body. It depends to some degree on the seat adjustment, but then again, some is just layout. Personally, it seems to me the Merc feels the roomiest of the lot, but the XJ takes the cake when it comes to sheer library like coziness. All that is missing is a little fireplace, really. Maybe it's an option in the Vandenplas... :-)
    A lot of it also has to do with the color choice of the interior. Perception often is not entirely captured in numbers.
  • escargoescargo Posts: 8
    When I have the seat in my S class all the way back it's almost too far away from the controls for my wide butt, long legs and long arms to reach. I can still sit in the backseat on the driver's side and stretch out with the driver's seat all the way back. That's what I call roominess. I'm willing to give up the trunk space for passenger room. But you guys are making me think twice about the LS 430 next time.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    ...measurements do not tell the entire story. Perceived interior rrom has a lot to do with the way the ergonomics simply fit your very own body. It depends to some degree on the seat adjustment, but then again, some is just layout. Personally, it seems to me the Merc feels the roomiest of the lot, but the XJ takes the cake when it comes to sheer library like coziness. All that is missing is a little fireplace, really. Maybe it's an option in the Vandenplas... :-)
    A lot of it also has to do with the color choice of the interior. Perception often is not entirely captured in numbers.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Any particular reason you chose the S-430 over S-500? I was evaluating both vs. LS430 and had decided if I went MB I was going with the S-500. But I was leasing and just decided that a $140 per month payment differential per month in S-500 over S-430 was not large enough to keep me away from S-500. Though they lease reasonably close in price, an outright purchase is of course quite different. Just curious about your approach.
  • denniswadedenniswade Posts: 362
    Re your comment that "something about seeing "Toyota" stamped all over component parts under the hood just turned me off." And why is that, exactly? Anything objective, or just a vague feeling that the Japanese are innately inferior to the Germans? Hell, in the rest of the world, Mercedes are taxis, and a goodly number of them are clattery old diesels. Hardly the stuff of fantasy.

    As to your comment that "Maybe it's just my low class upbringing, but I can't seem to recall seeing a Saudi prince or a European Monarch riding in a Lexus, but I have seen quite a few in a Mercedes. Need I say more?"

    No, you don't -- you said it all yourself.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    The big question that seemingly validaes prestige... they drive:

    The Aston Martin on Sat
    The Ferrari Barchetta on Sun
    The Bentley Arnage on Mon
    The Rolls Silver Spur on Tue
    etc etc

    Just two or three measly luxury cars won't do. :-)
  • and one british journalist called it the quietest vehicle in the world

    Crown is the upmarket version of Toyota in Japan I believe

    I would think that Lexus will be getting a V12 in the coming years..
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