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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • hfanghfang Posts: 31
    Ah, I see that when you have no more bullets in your gun, the name calling starts. I've never called you anything derogatory- just for you to address my points in a logical and systematic way. And now I'm a lexus fanboy? Egads...
  • i don't have a MB sedan...i drive an
    Audi sedan. my argument and opinions
    when discussing whether Lexus is the
    equal of Mercedes Benz in not biased.
    in my opinion yours is. still...
    i apologize for using the words fanboy.
    it was inappropriate and unnecessary.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    That's enough - keep your comments confined to the cars. Thank you.
  • Were I live it is better I don't need awd...What do you want to put up for $70,000 and what comes with it....
  • awd isn't a necessity but it does
    have some advantages. in the
    northeast it enables you use your
    sedan all year round without
    having to worry about weather.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "If quality is lacking then problems can occure anywhere..ABS, ESP, Brake Assist or anywhere else."

    Yet since these items have been on cars from MB and every other brand sold in the U.S. there has been no such reports of anyone ABS, ESP or Brake Assist or anything like these items not working as they should. ABS has been on every car under the sun for at least 10 years or more, yet nothing has ever been shown it failing.

    Again, if you have proof of such a failure, I'd like to read about it, otherwise you're just speculating endlessly about much of nothing, its called hype.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "The poster before attempts to malign the Lexus name without any proof. The only thing those links indicated was that the Lexus performs MARGINALLY worse in rear end crashes, which the tester admits usually aren't serious.

    The "problem" is that he gave the proof and as usual when it doesn't show Lexus in a good light it is glossed over and isn't important.

    "None of you acknowledge that being first in innovation isn't enough to generate profits. Prestige does not equal profits as clearly shown in the MB case. You fail to see the point that no one cares WHO built the thing first.. This is the point you all miss repeatedly.

    Very important word missing here, "you". More correctly you don't care about these things yet MB owners right here on these very boards like the fact that Mercedes was first with a lot of things, along with Volvo and other European cars that pioneered safety in modern cars. These things are part of their lure, like CR and JDP reports are a part of Lexus' twist. Its understandable that you won't care about the safety or prestige viewpoints because they don't apply to Lexus.

    What you miss that nobody here or anyone else walks into a showroom caring what Toyota's profits are. That is absurd to even suggest that. Who cares what a companies profits are as long as they aren't in danger of leaving the market and the buyer with an unservicable car, a postion MB isn't even close to being in.

    Don't no buyers care about profits of the car company they're buying from. They do care about reliability and reputation of a brand, especially a luxury brand. No you can debate which is more important to whom all day long, but people don't care squat about no profits.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Aha... I couldn't have said it any better than you just did. If the SL is a much better car than the SC, does the higher price of the SL deter its sales ? Nope. See, we do agree...."

    Well we don't really "agree" on anything except the SL being a better car. The SL is a lot newer than the SC430 also.

    "So let us extrapolate. If the S430/500 are better cars than the LS430, regardless of their higher prices, would they not sell better COMBINED than a single engined Lexus LS430 ? But we all know the reverse is the case, right ? So, it must tell you something about the incredible car the LS430 is. That it can single-handedly BEAT all S-class cars COMBINED in units sold. The LS, whether you'd like to admit it or not, is the most popular, most DESIRED mainstream full-size luxury car money can buy. Its higher sales bears this point out. If the MBs were $20K, $30K better (as currently priced), they should clobber the LS in sales."

    I'm sorry but this is bass-ackwards. It completely the 56K sticker of the LS and the 70K+ sticker of the cheapest S-Class. You have no idea what the most "desired" car in the class is, all you know is the best selling one. If price were equal, at least one Lexus fan I've seen would have bought the S, not the LS. You're ignoring price having an effect on sales like all the others here. You're trying to tie that in with whether or not the S-Class is worth the premium, which wasn't my argument.

    BTW, I don't think the S-Class is 20-30K better than the LS430, not at all. Never stated that, someone else may have, but not me.

    I have yet to understand what in the world does profit statements and other corporate matters that are matterless to a buyer factor into this. You mean to tell me that a LS is such a boring, insipid car to the point where you have to bring up profits about a car company to make a case for it? That really gets me excited, thinking about Toyotas profits, if I happen to like their new IS250350 model.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "My point here is that hybrid tech trumps anything else MB has innovated in the last 15 years. Why? Because it is probably the only new technology to come along in the last 15 years (probably longer) that SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVES BOTH FUEL ECONOMY AND SHEER PERFORMANCE. The fuel savings are a societal and environmental good.

    Who declared this to be fact or even true? The saving lives part is so far fetched and so far into the future to the point that it shouldn't even be argued here, yet. This is all guesswork. There should have been a big IMO at the end of this. Lexus has yet to even sell a single hyrbid vehicle and the Prius hasn't sold in enough numbers yet even make the smallest most minute difference any air quality anywhere at anytime. I'm surprised by all the guesswork here that you're trying to pass off as facts. Most unusual. The part you really don't want to acknowledge is that all the safety work done by MB, Volvo and others have saved lives now for over 30 years in some cases and most of this has been documented, unlike your hybrid theory.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    " dunno what other people think, but if Mercedes can even make their radio or head lamp work perfectly and dependable, how can i trust it can save my life with its airbags and all other advance technologies.

    You seem to be under the assumption that Mercedes is just can't do anything right and on this board, reading these posts its understandable. My first response to this would be that Mercedes pioneered these things during another era when even the JDP and CR survey/chart chasers would have been pleased with Mercedes' performance. My second response would be that these very technologies are not Mercedes' exclusives and haven't been since after the first year they were introduced. In other words they are proven technologies and to imply that such things like airbags and ABS won't because they're on a Mercedes is pure hype and not based on anything in reality. If you have proof of anything like that happening I'd like to read about it.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Sometimes in the heat of discussion, we lose sight of the obvious. But note that it is rare to see someone argue here that the LS is safer than the S, or has better driving dynamics, or has more prestige. Nor do you see many people saying the S is really more reliable than the LS, or that its electronics are better, or that you get more bang for your buck in the S. That disagreement may be true in comparing the traits of other cars, but not these two. We just disagree about how to weigh the importance of the different factors, not which car possesses which dominant trait.

    That's why this battle can never be won, nor can anyone be swayed to one side or the other. We in fact probably all agree on the objective factors, we just disagree on their relative importance."


    Exactly! This is what what I was trying to say at the outset of this latest melee which has gone on for about 3 weeks now, much longer than any fallout from anything I've ever stated.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Over the last 98(!) posts I've seen a lot of debate about badging.

    I for one hate rebadging of cars, but in Lexus' defense the LS430 or whatever it is called in Japan is a luxury car by "specification" no matter which baged it is sold under.

    If the badge determined the stauts then the VW Phaeton wouldn't be a luxury car either, and we all know it is. Pure luxury car, period.

    Rebadging to me is what GM is forcing upon Saab with the 9-7x and 9-2x models, see other forums for specifics. Rebadging whether Lexus fans like it or not is the Toyota Land Cruiser and Lexus LX470, other than a few equipment changes they are the same truck. Lexus does at the very least attempt to seperate the GX and ES from their 4Runner and Camry bases. To buy a LX470 is pure badge stuff at work, just as bad any anyone buying a Mercedes because of its badge.

    Saying a A8 is a rebadge Phaeton shows who reads the specs and who doesn't. They don't even share same construction techniques or frame, hardly a "rebadge".

    M
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Regardless of whether issues are speculation or fact, there is an extremely high awareness of safety. Case in point, I know of people who cut down trees because they are afraid of their kids getting concussions from falling nuts. Imagine the dangers of being a Boy/Girl Scout.

    Thus, if a car gets a ton of black dots the seed is planted in the mind—maybe the car's safety features—the airbags—will fail. Dum, da dum dum. It may have little to do with reality but it is probably in the mind of many buyers and I am sure it is what people around here are alluding to.

    Risk management is a big part of today's mentality and black dots are synonymous with risk.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Merc,
    My point about safety on the LS is that the tests show it to be marginally worse in rear end crashes. It hardly qualifies the LS as an unsafe or shoddily built car as some have said here. The testers admit these rear end impacts rarely result in serious injury. Basically for the typical crash (front, side) the LS performs as well as everyone else.

    You are correct to say Lexus owners value JDP, CR more than prestige. I don't think it's fair to say we don't value safety. The LS performance is comparable, but not superior. My favorite Jaguar (The XJ8) doesn't have many of the features that MB does, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy one.

    I agree with you on the profit part. What I meant to say the strength of Lexus is shown in the profit side of things. You can't argue with success. I wasn't trying to argue that the majority of buyers look up balance sheets. My point was that buyers also don't care who is first to market with various safety measures. I don't even know who invented ABS (MB?) nor do I care. Who was first to market isn't going to influence my decision.

    The reason I almost got the S430 was the sleek profile of the car. Also, after driving a LS for 13 years, I thought it might be worth the change. Like many though, I didn't think the 13K premium was justified. Had it been 2-4K then I would have done it. The clincher was the current quality issues. Once they've cleared that up, I probably will get one, should Lexus continue with these insipid designs. Lexus had it right with the original LS and SC...Why did they change it?!

    I remember in the late eighties, MB used to dominate the JDP surveys. To fall to 31 is quite shocking for a celebrated brand like Mercedes. Was it cost cutting that led to this?

    Sitting in all of these cars (LS, S Class, 7 Series) I feel that they aren't designed to the same specs that their predecessors were. I still see shining examples of original LS400's, 80's S Classes and BMW's all over the place. Somehow with all these electronic gimmicks I don't think these cars will fare as well. Normally I don't trade my cars frequently, but I feel really uneasy about owning a car outside the warranty perioid with such gadgetry. I think the marques are focusing too much on the electronics end at the cost of long term reliability.

    SV
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well of course I didn't say the LS430 was an unsafe car. Truthfully I think the whole thing started when someone else tried to imply the same thing about the A8 and then new MB fans came on board saying that about the LS compared to a Benz.

    My point about things like ABS is that a lot (not all or majority) fans of the Benz marque know these things about their innovations because it is part of MB's heritage. This is part of their lure, just as Lexus will do the same in the history books if and when this hybrid things takes off and they're leading the way. See? The thing I disagreed with you on was "who cares" attitude about such things as who invented/pioneered what, yet German car fans are supposed to care about Toyotas profits and JDP and CR reports instead or the fact that they came up with hybrid tech first.

    The two views don't mix. Never have, never will.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I agree with you that most people don't car about the car manufacturer's profits (unless the company is seen as possibly going under).

    But on safety I think most people really don't care, when they are shopping for a car, who was FIRST with a particular safety feature. They do and should care about WHAT CAR IS THE SAFEST NOW.

    If a buyer really cares about safety foremost and is trying to decide between an S and an LS, the objective data available are:

    1. IIHS insurance injury loss rankings look better for the LS
    2. IIHS has not crash tested the S, but in comparing the E and GS, the E does better on rear impacts
    3. The LS has rear side curtain airbags but lack rear side door-mounted airbags
    4. CR shows S-class brakes to be less reliable than LS brakes (the S looks average, the LS looks very good/excellent in brake reliability)

    The final point is where reliability may indeed impact safety. Does the buyer want the extra rear airbags, or does he want brakes that are more reliable?

    IMHO looking at all the available objective data, one can't say that the S is safer than the LS. It looks about the same.

    Again I don't see why it should matter to the buyer that MB invented ABS or whatever, as long as the LS has it too.

    Do you still use Visicalc because it was the first spreadsheet? Or do you instead use the best spreadsheet for the purpose?

    Do you pick a brand of cellphone based on who was FIRST with various innovations? Or do you pick based on who offers the best cellphone NOW, based on whatever criteria are important to you?

    Five years from now, if I'm in the market for my second hybrid vehicle and MB makes what in my view is the best for my needs, I'll buy it. I won't care that they weren't first with the innovation.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,677
    Silly because two people who pass up MB ownership chances are arguing with a bunch of Lexus folk who buy, have bought and will be repeat buyers in future. Then we have some historic German buyers who have bought Lexus and see/experience what the rest of us always talk about. On the other hand Merc can afford the C-class but says he'll pass on it if buying anew (in the past) so for all his vaunted claims finds other cars better suited in his price range. Meanwhile [denaliinpa] can't handle Lexus success and just flamethrows. At the same time the Lex crowd can't wait to see the next LS and the cars in their group because of the phenomenal ownership experience. Most of us wouldn't even think of switching when we are buying anew. Lawyers would have a field day with this one if it was a court case.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    So far from what I read: MB used to build the best cars, now it is being surpassed by new comers like Lexus. But MB still can regain its throne by concentrating again on quality, it's that simple.
    Can we talk about something else?
  • vchengvcheng Posts: 1,284
    I have had two LS430 cars. My brother has a Mercedes S500, while I now have a VW Phaeton. Who knows what's next? They are all great with different strengths and no real weaknesses. Variety is the spice of life.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    After owning VW, would you buy Phaeton over LS430 again? I used to own MB, but now Lexus, I won't go back to MB unless their quality improves.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    When you walk into a store to buy a new TV, if the salesman tells you that you should consider the RCA brand because RCA invented the first color tv, is that going to sway you in your decision?

    Or do you just buy the right TV for you, based on your own evaluation of the merits of what is available now in the marketplace?

    Yet we are asked by some here to consider MB's innovations over the past 120 years in our next purchase. I'll say again that imho all that should matter is, what does the car offer now?
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Isn't it time someone finds a different line of conversation? There really isn't anything new left to say on this ...
  • vchengvcheng Posts: 1,284
    I have only about 2k miles on my Phaeton. I will post my impressions here if this thead survives.

    pat_HOST: I understand your position. However, this is one of the more interesting threads on Edmund's, occasional emotional outbursts notwithstanding.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Hi Pat:

    Its a lotta fun to read these excellent posts - yes repetitive and can be boring, but still good reads....

    So how 'bout a trade: Edmunds fixes the link broken issue, and we change the topic here.

    Deal ?

    :)
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    LOL - I hear there is a fix in the works.

    You people can certainly talk about what you want to talk about (civilly, of course :)), but we've been around this mulberry bush so many times and in so many ways I can't imagine that there is anything new to say. I know I haven't read anything new in quite some time. It would be nice if the title "High End Luxury Marques" meant more than why people buy Lexuses and why people believe MB has more panache and the endless arguing about whose position makes more sense. Of course there is no end to that since no one is ever going to budge.

    Back to the link issue, meanwhile that tinyrul.com site is useful. I had forgotten all about that.

    Carry on ...

    :)
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    Benz, BMW, Audi, Phaeton, others?

    Recently aftermarket suppliers of electronic modules that lower the ride height of 'air suspension' Benzes and Beemers have discovered the Audi A8 and the Phaeton. Has anyone here lowered their German lux sedan using one of these products?

    What do you think about the results?
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    from what I've seen on the different boards the only person that has lowered an A8 successfully is atlas on Audiworld. he is an Audi dealer so i don't think he has to worry about any warranty concerns. it would be a warranty issue right?

    i receive consumer consumer reports and i am pretty sure that they have never tested an S class. i could be wrong but i don't recall ever seeing it. when they rate the cars in their annual car issue i wonder where they receive their data? do they survey Cr members? go to JDPowers for info? i wonder how large of a sample group they have to pull from. does anyone have any information where they gather their data for vehicles that they never have road tested themselves?

    even though this thread can get heated it has
    to be one of the more enjoyable threads on Edmund's. IMO there is nothing wrong with some healthy debate....even when nothing good comes of it!
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    I know about AtlasD3. I wanna hear about the Benz/BMW and any other VAG car owners.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    This ride-height conversation is really subversive to the CTS (Circular Talk Society). You guys are going to trip the circuit breakers in a lot of heads around here!

    ;-)
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    denali, The reliability ratings are based on survey data, not roadtests: "Based on about 810,000 responses to our latest subscriber survey, these charts give you a rundown on how 1997 through 2004 models are holding up in 14 areas, ranging from the engine, transmission, and brakes to power equipment and the electrical system.
    In response to our survey, subscribers told us about any serious problems they had with their vehicles in the previous year."

    They did roadtest a 2003 S, you can see what they had to say online if you're a subscriber. Of course most people here don't consider the CR roadtests to be terribly meaningful.
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