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High End Luxury Cars

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  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I think it was tiag_m5/jovialanus who blasted the LS for poor braking performance. I pointed out that the C&D review he was basing that assessment on tested the LS with all-season tires and the S with summer tires.

    CR tested both cars (MY03) with 17" all-seasons on dry pavement. The results?

    60-0 S430 135 ft
    60-0 LS430 134 ft
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    i am curious. out of the 810000.....how many LS430, S Class, A8, 7, Phaeton, and Jag owners responded? it would be very interesting to see how large or small the sample group for each specific vehicle is.

    i did go to the website and read the snapshot and overall reliability ratings. they tested the S430 and overall the car did well. the only negative aspect was the expected reliability and the electrical. here's a thought... if CR is going to post opinions on products it might not be a bad idea to let the CR member know how many people actually responded to the survey.
  • Merc.

    Perhaps you have a source that shows the top 5 or 10 Problems with S Class Mercedes. Or...Are you just guessing there are no such problems.

    NOTE...the OR ANYWHERE ELSE is part of the Problem catagory.
  • CR requires a min. number of responses before they will rate a car or anything else...If you look carefully you should find what that number is for CARS.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    CR is fairly responsible in using statistics, more so than some of the people on this forum, and you'll see for the S that for some years they do not have a large enough respondent sample, so in those years you see a * in brakes or whatever category, meaning they didn't give reliability statistics for that year.
  • I have raised my Lexus Ultra to have enough clearence at the Car wash....It lowers itself on the freeway.
  • The "whole world" knows no such thing. They are different! Read any automotive magazine that has reviewed both and you may then understand that they are DIFFERENT CARS FOR DIFFERENT BUYERS.
  • How about this for a new topic. What is the group's opinion of the various I-Drive, MMI, etc. that are coming to market. Do that add or detract from the luxury car driving experience?
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    i searched their site for any explanation on
    how many surveys they receive per vehicle without any luck. i did a search on google and came across this link. it is interesting.

    http://www.allpar.com/cr.html
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    CR ain't perfect but it, along with JDP, are what we have when it comes to data that can make any claim to being based on a decent-sized sample. There are other surveys in the EU and especially Germany. To my knowledge, they ALL tend to show MB in an unfavorable light as regards reliability. Are they all wrong? Or can you dredge up a survey, ANY survey, that shows MB to be more reliable than Lexus?

    Would you rather have us gauge reliability based on your own personal experience with a handful of cars? Talk about a small sample size!
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    the mmi in my Audi is really great.
    easy to read and nowhere near as
    complicated as most people would think.
    here are a few examples.... when you want to use the seat heater. you press the button next to the passenger or driver temp controls for seat heater.
    then on the mmi screen it will show a picture
    of a dial with 5 settings to choose from.
    all you do is rotate the mmi control to
    the temp. setting that you want and press.
    same thing when you want to change how the
    suspension is adjusted. click the "car" button next to the mmi control then rotate the dial and click. when you are listening to XM all you have
    to do is rotate the mmi knob and you scroll through the available channels. what is nice about it is you can see about 7 or 8 channels on the screen at the same time while you scroll through. plus you can also group them. and
    if you don't want to have the mmi screen up and exposed in the center of the dash you can use the duplicate screen between the tach. and speedo. there is also controls on the steering wheel for certain functions(vol, channel) if you don't want to use the mmi dial. i haven't even read the manual yet but
    i understand a good amout of what it offers.
    i have yet to drive the nav though.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    it would be nice to have a good explanation
    on how and how much information is gathered
    on a product before they put their stamp on it.
    especially if so much emphasis is going to be placed on their "results".

    as for my sample size. i've owned MB's,BMW's,Acuras, Toyota's,Honda's,
    Mitsu's,GMC's, Chevy's, 1 Audi, and 1 Olds.
    in all of the cars i've owned
    i have never had one lemon.
    there were only 2 issues with
    any of my vehicles.... after i sold
    them and they were with the Toyota
    P/U(Blown Head gasket/voluntary
    engine rebuild) and Supra(transmission
    failed).
  • To Turn on and adjust the Seat Warmer on my Lexus you simply reach over push the nob..it pops up turn it to the heat setting you want and you are done...You do the same thing for the through seat Air conditioning...Same button...
    -------------------------------------------------
    Now Look how easy that was to explain then go back and read your post...Lexus is an awesome Machine Yet..Easy to use. and I also covered Air Conditioning.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    oh boy...you can do the exact same thing with the A8. hit the button and turn the temp control dial right next to it. but....you can also control it through the mmi controller which is more conveniently placed closer to the armrest....next.
  • stevesteinstevestein Posts: 263
    If Groucho marx still had his show on TV ("You Bet Your Life") the duck would have dropped and you would have won $100 for using "panache".
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I suppose after the hard bruising *debates* around here, it is time for some fluff on features - iDrive, MMI, etc.

    My take is basically anything that detracts a driver from the actual art of driving is a bad thing. You don't need to toggle, push, pull, then scroll.... just to turn on a darn radio ! Good technology makes your life easier. MMI and iDrive, despite all what hard-nosed owners will admit, is an unnecessary and ill-fated feature. But for those who love these features (minority), good luck trying to fix them when they break, and break they will sooner or later....
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    have you ever sat in an Audi A8 and used
    the mmi? MB has a new S Class
    coming out very soon. if they install
    a device similar my guess is that it will
    eventually become standard issue for all
    cars in this class. as usual the Germans
    are leading the way. the same complaints
    you have made i bet were made by many
    people when navigation systems were first
    available. now they are considered common
    place.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    has anyone checked out this link yet?
    http://www.allpar.com/cr.html
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    I have experienced the MMI - it failed on me so many times that I had to pull over and make sure there wasn't something wrong with the car. On the shoulder of I-95 with people whisking buy at 80mph - for cryin out loud. It was no fun and an absolute nightmare. The damm thing was so bad that the last thing I could enjoy was driving the car and prompted a lot of cursee by the people that were with me including the owner who gave Audi hell on the phone. The MMI was awful - warned ne that things had to be checked, shut off the radio so many times I lost track, cutoff the nav system at a time I badly needed it etc etc etc. I posted about it last august. Its needless useless and complicating and I pray Lexus never goes for it. But if they do it will be done a lot better than BMW or Audi knows how to do it because electronics is absolutely a Japanese strength and a German weakness.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    did you own an A8?
    from what i've seen the
    04 mmi's had some software
    issues that have been
    corrected.
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    How does the ride height an air suspension work on your Lexus?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    No - it was a 400 mile business trip and I did my share of the driving. The MMI made it a nightmare trip for all of us and at one point even scared us that the it would kill the battery because it wouldn't shut off the power. I also would never put up with the nav system fraulein.
  • I have a switch in the car that can raise the car I think 3 Inches for getting through snow or making sure you clear the rails at he car wash...or you get on a rough road.

    With the flip of a switch you can also shift into sport mode which stiffens up the suspesion for better handling..The system will also automatically sense if you are driving agressively or making an emergency maneuver and will instantly tighten up on it's own for better handling.

    The Air Suspension system is auto leveling and has a 9 Step Variable Damper with computer Logic it will lower the car for better aerodynamics at speed ...

    As I have said before...I only drive em...I don't fix them or build them so ...That is the best information I can give you cased on what I think it does.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    The standard on quality statistics is Quality Engineering Statistics by Robert A. Dovich.

    It is the book used in major corporations like Motorola, GM, Toyota, etc. as a text with Green Belt and Black Belt training.

    Statistics is based on samples, sample sizes and populations. The comments that the 'response rate' as %of the population is the 'key' as referred to in the sited link is misguided and incorrect.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    You keep missing the point: Prestige is nice, but it doesn't pay the bills..Profits do!! Hardly ramblings...You still haven't addressed the fact: How is it that Lexus sells for LESS and still makes more profit on the LS430 vs MB on the S430.

    Let me try this one more time. What do quarterly earning reports and pricing strategy have to do with anything? Why should anyone care that Lexus makes more profits on the LS430 than MB on the S430? Regardless of the fact that you haven’t provided any figures to backup this claim, I’m not sure what the purpose of this argument is.

    Merc is correct to say that MOST consumers of these cars probably don't consider profits..But I doubt they also care who was first to market the airbag or whatever.

    You’re right; most people probably don’t care because most people are uniformed about safety when they shop for a car… otherwise the Chevy Cavalier wouldn’t sell. The fact of the matter is innovation, whether it be safety, performance or hybrid innovation, reflects the values and priorities of the companies that sell cars. With Mercedes it is obvious that safety is a high priority, as we can see through their innovation and class leading standard features. With Lexus, cost cutting is obviously a high priority.

    What facts? Least safety conscious? If so, they would do poorly in ALL safety tests. I looked at those links for the crash results..You pretty much confirmed what I thought..The LS got the highest rating and in fact was recommended for frontal collisions!!!! The RX and GS were marked down to Average in one category..This is hardly a basis to judge a car "unsafe" or "Shoddy engineering.."

    The previous LS did receive the highest rating, but not all “best picks” are created alike. Both the previous 5 series and E class scored higher “best picks” than the LS. The RX was marked down the first time due to a weak structure/safety cage and the second time because the dummy “bottomed out the airbag.” The BMW X5 on the other hand, was rated the “safest SUV ever tested.”

    So basically 90% of the time the LS will hold up as well as the competitors. (In the frontal types of crashes) In the 10% where it may not perform as well the injuries usually aren't serious to begin with...This sounds like a marginal advantage at best...

    You can’t assume that all cars that scored similarly in the IIHS test offer similar protection in real world accidents or even within the IIHS scoring system. The IIHS tests are an instance in which Lexus scored well in is ONE relatively low speed designer test that most manufacturers prepare for before hand. This and other tests cannot account for the infinite number of crashes that occur in real life that manufacturers aren’t held accountable for in the form of standardized tests. What would happen if you increased the impact speed from 40mph to 50mph? Or reduced the overlap from 40% to 30%? What would happen in a rollover or shallow angle side impact? Would Lexus still hold up, or would Lexus’ disregard for safety be exposed once the predictable crash tests are removed? I would submit to you that MB and others have the upper hand in this regard. Also, these tests do not account for safety features not found in Lexus automobiles like rear side airbags. Yes, the NHTSA (and sometimes IIHS) conduct side impacts and rate both front and rear passengers, but the forces are more concentrated on the driver because the vehicle is struck towards the front. Also, crash tests don’t account for the safety benefits of things like rear seatbelt ETDs, roll bars, fuel shutoff, battery disconnect, etc.

    Why don't you list the countless times Toyota has had bad crash results...

    Here are 9 examples: Looks like Toyota puts safety at the top of its priority list judging by all these chart toping performances : /

    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96022.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98014.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98003.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/95031.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/97023.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/95007.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/97022.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96005.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0106.htm

    Now how is it unfair that the S430 is compared to the LS? Using your logic, the S430 should be a fair comparison because it is priced higher. Yet the LS430 still beat it anyway. Someone already pointed out they didn't test the Euro Sport model. I read that comparo recently and said it was like comparing a person on slippery ballerina shoes to normal ones..Even THEY admit it wasn't fair..So what are you going to argue now???

    Nothing was unfair about this coparison in regards to Lexus, nor did C&D ever admit to that. It isn't anyone's fault except Lexus' that the standard "Japanese Sport" suspension is far inferior to that of the European competition. I really can’t fathom why the LS430 won the comparison; C&D must be accepting “donations” from car companies these days. Even with the Euro Sport suspension, the LS will never be as athletic as the 7 or the S. Even the most diehard LS fan should be able to admit that. The LS430 lost in all performance aspects except acceleration, has rip-off exterior styling, an interior pulled from the Camry, and fewer features than the competition. Given that all cars at this level offer roughly the same level of luxury, the LS has no real advantage except price and reliability… sounds like C&D needs to change its name to Consumer Reports… apparently driving dynamics carry little weight with a magazine concerned foremost with performance.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    You seem to say best value doesn't mean "best" overall..According to the recent Road and Track, Car and Driver, JDP, CR, and Resale Values, High price doesn't mean BEST either....You still don't explain why Lexus makes more Profit off the LS430 than MB makes off a S Class DESPITE being 15K less!!! You subscribe to the foolish notion that Pricier means better...Did you know a $15 Timex is more reliable and accurate than a 15K Rolex???

    I never said that high price always meant “best”, but in this particular instance it does. The LS430 is a good value, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the best. You can spend more on an S class and get the best or you can spend 70% of that on the LS and get 70% of the car. As far as your watch analogy is concerned: Apples and Oranges. The differences between highly complex, multi-faceted products such as luxury cars can’t be boiled down to the simple difference between a Rolex and a Timex. If anything Lexus is a battery powered knock-off Rolex made of yellow plastic with a quartz movement.

    Sounds like the high price of the S is due to inefficiency more than price premium..Here's where profits are important: Less profit, less R&D..As far as I've seen it, Toyota has taken on R&D projects where it can profit immensely from. You're completely ignoring the whole business side to this.

    Yes I am ignoring the business side to this. I’m not comparing the fiscal policies of MB and Lexus, I am comparing their products. Just because Lexus is more profitable (which you haven’t proven) than MB doesn’t mean that Lexus makes better cars. Less R&D? Is that why most of the features on your LS came from the MB or BMW R&D department? Is less R&D why Lexus is still riding on the coattails of MB for innovation? Interesting.

    Actually Boeing and Airbus differ big time on design. Fly by Wire vs Mechanical Controls is a HUGE issue in the aviation world. (Air Force 1 does not have Fly by Wire, despite it being available at the time) British Airways has insisted the 747 Advanced NOT have Fly by wire. The 747 has triple redunancy on all critical systems whereas the A340 has two. The 747 does have more innovative safety features than the A340, yet this has not stopped airlines from buying the Airbus..You should stop and think whether any corporation is going to open themselves up to lawsuits from a product that is "unsafe" or "poorly engineered"

    That’s probably because no body knows these details. If the public knew that Boeing made a safer jet than Airbus, you can be sure that airlines that fly Boeing would get more business. Much is the same with Lexus and Mercedes. Most people are sheep who follow the Lexus cult ignorant of the fact that Lexus lags behind the market for safety, doesn’t even offer rear side airbags or that the SC430 doesn’t have rollover protection. And if you think corporations don’t take chances with products that are “unsafe” I submit to you Hyundai, possibly the most unsafe vehicles as per IIHS crash tests. Also, GM and Ford are currently involved in a number of class action lawsuits regarding their poorly engineered SUV/Truck roofs that collapse in rollovers because they are still designed to 1970s strength specifications, while Volvo/MB/BMW have exceeded those specifications five times over for decades.

    Given that Lexus commands a high customer loyalty I doubt they'd risk their business by building cars that are unsafe. If they can spend $4 Billion on the original LS400 do you think they'd skimp on $500 electronics?? They've chose to spend their R&D on Award Winning Customer Service, NAV's, Hybrids, superior reliability, and cutting edge electronics whilst building a car that is STILL recommended by the NHTSA and various other agencies for safety..

    Well obviously they decided to skimp in $500 rear airbags, $500 roll protection bars (SC), and $500 rear load limiters on most models. They skimped on the passenger airbags for 4 years. They skimped on head protection airbags for 2 years. They also decided to wait 4 years after MB and BMW to adopt the most significant safety feature since the seatbelt, ESC. IIHS and NHTSA crash tests do not account for safety features such as these and only provide us with a limited view of a cars comprehensive safety in two designer tests. When you add up all the skimping, waiting and corner cutting that Lexus has done over the years, it’s obvious that they aren’t exactly the most safety conscious brand.

    It only makes sense to assume that a company like Mercedes would offer more comprehensive protection in all types of crashes because safety is a hallmark of their brand. Who would you expect to build a better race car? Someone with years of innovation, experience and leadership in the segment or a newcomer with a questionable record? Much the same can be said for safety. It’s a hard thing to accept as long as you are blinded by brand loyalty and bias, so think of it this way, with two companies; company A and company B:

    Company A has been in the business of making safe cars for over 100 years. Company A offers the most standard and optional safety features than any other brand. Company A has introduced many important safety advances such as crumple zones, ABS, stability control, and seat belt pre-tensioners, just to name a FEW things. Company A is one of only two companies with active accident investigation teams to assess real world collisions in order to modify their designs. Company A offers the latest and greatest safety features and structural designs before most other brands.

    Company B has been in the business of making affordable cars for 15 years. Company B hasn’t introduced any of its own pioneering safety features nor has it shown any particular interest in safety innovation. Company B often waits several years before it adopts the safety features pioneered by company A and others. Company B still doesn’t offer many of the basic safety features that have been found in company A’s cars for years.

    Assuming you have no bias, which of these two brands has an obvious advantage in the area of safety? Which would you expect to perform better in an accident? It seems pretty clear to me. Most people would pick company A, but if you’re a Lexus fan you might pick company B.
  • So the only advantage that the LS has is PRICE and Reliability and Acceleration...Hmmmmm..That sounds pretty good to me....Throw in the best ride in the business and the best Sound system and with all this on the Lexus side, what are your reasons for buying the other cars?
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    You post crash ratings and not a single one was a Lexus..Most were older pickups and low end suvs and even a cheap chevy...

    He asked me to show him Toyota... I showed him Toyota. And since Lexus and Toyota are the same company, why should it matter?

    So the only advantage that the LS has is PRICE and Reliability and Acceleration...Hmmmmm..That sounds pretty good to me....Throw in the best ride in the business and the best Sound system and with all this on the Lexus side, what are your reasons for buying the other cars?

    Styling, performance and safety of course. In my mind, the MB and BMW advantage in these areas far outweigh the extra cost and decreased light bulb/window switch reliability.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    You win....MBs are better styled, have better performance, and more safe than the LS. Would that make you feel better tonight ?

    Michael:

    Let's just ignore the flames.... Pretty soon, it should die down...
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "On the other hand Merc can afford the C-class but says he'll pass on it if buying anew (in the past) so for all his vaunted claims finds other cars better suited in his price range."

    Excuse me? Since when did I say that I was definitely not buying a C-Class? Secondly the class of cars we were debating here are the S-Class/LS not the entry level because if I were a buyer in this segment I would buy an A8L or S-Class or Phaeton hands down. Period. I wouldn't want a LS no matter what.

    M
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