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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Perhaps you have a source that shows the top 5 or 10 Problems with S Class Mercedes. Or...Are you just guessing there are no such problems.

    I'm just guessing because that is all you were doing by implying that Mercedes' safety technology didn't work. If you're going to make a claim then you should prove it, I didn't make the claim, but I did ask you to prove yours. Simple as that. I haven't seen anything from anywhere that said anything about MB safety equipment failing.

    Furthermore it has been well documented the main problems with Mercedes and airbags and ABS weren't among them. Mercedes' main problems were with the Comand system, suspension (ABC) on S-Classes, fuel tank sending units and host of other things with the ML in particular, but none of these failings were with basic safety equipment that every car has.

    M
  • topspin628topspin628 Posts: 373
    You know, when I was younger, we used to have discussions like this as to who was better regarding ball players. If you were a Micky Mantle guy then he was the best. If you liked Mays then he was. And no one would change their minds since their minds were made up in advance. The S and LS are great cars with different strengths. What you like best is what you like best.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    Well, it didn't take long to google a list of Mercedes parts failures, including safety items.

    Here's a company that makes a living selling replacement stuff for these items that fail. Some of them are obviously safety related, while others I guess are just generically inferior and prone to early failure.

    If you visit bba-reman.com, a supplier of remanufactured and repalcement parts for many cars, they have an extensive list of specific makes and models 'common failures' for which they offer parts.

    The company has a long list for Mercedes and right on the list is the heart and soul of MB's vaunted driver saftey and augmentation system: the ABS pump.

    And it also seems that ECU's are bit troublesome in almost every MB car line. That's only a safety problem, I suppose, for those cars that rely on the engine to provide power during ESD/TRAC operations or AWD.

    Here's the list:

    Mercedes A Class electric hydraulic power steering failing
    Mercedes A Class combined air mass meter and ECU
    Merecedes A Class air flow meters failing
    Mercedes 111 16v engine throttle body failing
    Mercedes C and E Class ABS pump failing
    Mercedes C/E/S Class, CLK/SLK throttle bodies failing
    Mercedes CL and SL class soft top convertible roof controllers failing
    Mercedes 280/300/350 ECU
    Mercedes 300/AMG 300 ECU
    Mercedes CLK 320, SL 280, SL 320 ECU
    Mercedes VDO ecu systems being damaged by harness overheating
    Mercedes Seimens and Bosch ignition modules failing
    Mercedes E Class ABS ECU

    I didn't see Lexus parts on the list.

    Regards
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    footie i went to the site you posted.
    if you notice Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus
    are not listed. i checked under Toyota
    and they list parts that are remanufactured.
  • topspin628topspin628 Posts: 373
    MB has a long and great heritage with many important contributions to the auto industry. However, Lexus, being the new kid, has accomplished in a very short time what it has taken others many generations to do. They have invented a new luxury product and having done that have been the focus of many business discussions and books.
    I have owned both MB and Lexus and posted earlier about the differences in both. The one key factor for me in picking Lexus this time (I am not loyal to one brand but pick the car the suits my needs and desires at the time)was reliability.
    I have been stranded 3 times in about 30 years of driving. First time was a Volvo 760, next time was an MB ML and the last time my wife's BMW X5 would not start after parked in the driveway (I also owned an 01 330i which was completely trouble free). I can put up with a few glitches here and there and don't expect any car to be perfect, but when it just plain won't go, then I'm very reluctant to jump back into that brand again. And when a brand commands a premium price due in part to prestige etc. they had better back it up with quality.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,683
    "Lexus manufactures a car to a price point while the "German Dogs" manufacture a car to a standard"

    In the old days that was true about MB - today that standard has reached and all-time low (again for MB) and it is way too low for me. With them about to cut corners with costs (they have no choice unless they want to keep losing money) it is bound to worsen.

    What are you guys going to come up with next that the engines idle .1 degree cooler. This has reached the point of desperation.

    The business argument - I made a statement that a high percentage of those buying lux cars are business savy people who can't miss headline events about MB having quality and financial problems. I then say it is logical that they will keep that in mind when buying or leasing anew because filing away things like that in their mind is how they got where they are. It is turned around on here by those who can't seem to handle that statement to read like people are investigating 10K's and 10Q's before their next purchase. Let's get real here about what was said and logical follow through. If anyone thinks news events like the ones MB are going through don't - at a minimum - at least give many knowledgable people cause to think twice then you have really lost it.

    The safety discussion has reached a point of absurdity. These cars are all safe and who invented what is the last thing anyone cares about or even knows when buying a car.

    The LS430 being 70% of the S430 is hysterical. It has a 110% victory in engine and about a 125% victory in power right off the bat. MB has a cost structure that is badly inefficient with sky high labor costs, cheap plasticky parts and lower and lower quality every year. You say Lexus is lower quality than that and less car becaues they are the opposite - extreme efficiency with the car essentially built by robots from day one in 1990 and the cars are as high quality as it gets as a result. The dreaded surveys you guys can't handle are a testament to that - for what - 12 years and running now. You are really lost becaues here is what your are saying - Lexus has to get grossly inefficient and increase its build cost with expensive labor and then the price rises and it is in a league with the S430. In essence that is your argument and that is absurdly ridiculous. Saying Lexus took the LS430 interior from the Camry is a close second though in the ridiculous meter. Again - we are in desperation city when you see comments like that.

    merc1 - I'll never waste my time reading thru the posts but more than once you said you have problems with the C-class and you'd not be a buyer of the car. My point is simple - the Lexus crowd has no problems buying, heck automatically buying, the cars in their price range. They eagerly await the next car because they are buyers of it. You eagerly await the next Benz because you are a fan of it. That is a mighty big difference right from the start. When push comes to shove the MB car in your price range was passed on. The hard evidence will always side with those who put their money where their mouth is. That's life.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "- I'll never waste my time reading thru the posts but more than once you said you have problems with the C-class and you'd not be a buyer of the car. My point is simple - the Lexus crowd has no problems buying, heck automatically buying, the cars in their price range. They eagerly await the next car because they are buyers of it. You eagerly await the next Benz because you are a fan of it. That is a mighty big difference right from the start. When push comes to shove the MB car in your price range was passed on. The hard evidence will always side with those who put their money where their mouth is. That's life."

    Wrong. I haven't passed on anything because I haven't bought anything yet. Read the profile. I said that I didn't want the 2001-2004 model, but for 2005 the C-Class was facelifted and I happen to like what they've done to it. Now they're going for engine updates which really takes care of the last problem I had with the car. Secondly my choice about not getting a C-Class in the past had more to do with not wanting a sedan. If you'll notice about my past posts since you feel you know what I said, you'll note that the Infiniti G35 Coupe was on my list, not the G35 or any other Japanese sedan and certainly not any dull Lexus.

    Besides I'm not shopping in your segment, and I seriously doubt if you were shopping in mine you'd pick the IS300 over a G35 or TL, since you wouldn't buy a German car either.

    I'm sure you can dig up a survey to prove your theory about buyers caring about Mercedes' earnings, CEO changes and the whole business side of the company otherwise this is just your opinion. I actually looked through the Price Paid and Buyers Experience boards here for every Mercedes model and guess what, not a single post anywhere about such irrelevant things about earnings and the like. Buyers of Maybachs and certain high end Mercedes read these things in the FT and WSj I'm sure, but they have money to get what they want and still continue to do so. What difference would any of this make to a person that is rich enough to afford a S600? Buyers care about reliability for sure, but they don't care about no profits. What in the world difference would it make to a buyer of this status if Toyota made more money than DCX?

    On the opposite end of the spectrum are C-Class/A4 buyers and the like and they couldn't care less about any of this press garble anymore than any other buyer could. They care about the price of entry into the brand beyond all else.

    What I find sad here is that part of a selling point of a car (Lexus in this case) is the company's earnings, that is like totally lame to me. Toyotas/Lexuses surely can stand on something other than reports and charts and financial statements no? Doesn't anything pertaining to the actual car itself appeal to any Lexi on this board? This profit mess is way too stuffy and detached for me. I happen to like this new Lexus IS based on the first pictures, and Toyotas earnings didn't play a role in that at all.

    And as usual when a person shows a Lexus in not so good a light it reverts back to the buyer comments, however personal they may be. Figures. I guess we're back to having to own a car before you can say anything about, and you must own a Lexus to know market trends and affords you the knowledge to know how all buyers think. Makes perfect sense to me.

    M
  • Tiag:

    Because they are not the same cars...What Lexus is the Rav 4...Or the Chevy that you showed...Even the Camery which shares a platform with ES only shares 25% of the ES total content...Further all the Models shown were old and out of date most from the 90S.

    Are you saying that A8 and Mercedes S have better performance..When you have already acknowledge that Lexus LS has better Acceleration...it has better 0-60 times then Audi and that is compairing to an Audi (Aluminum frame) with 46 more horses then the Lexus (6.3 to 5.9 Times)

    Safety...We have had that discussion and determined neither car has an edge..even though Mercedes invented Air Bags....40 years ago.

    Time to face facts...until the Germans do they will continue to lose Market.
  • You are right the Germans are very good in creating new Technology for cars...The Japanese have been very good at perfecting that tech and are the acknowledged leader with electronics...

    Perhaps Mercedes ...The auto Tech leader should rent their Engineering dept to the Japanese...They need to make a profit somewhere.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    If MB is that good like you said, why all the people I know will never buy MB again? I can assure you that they are not getting poorer.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    In post #8157, ljflx said this:

    "The business argument - I made a statement that a high percentage of those buying lux cars are business savy people who can't miss headline events about MB having quality and financial problems. I then say it is logical that they will keep that in mind when buying or leasing anew because filing away things like that in their mind is how they got where they are..."

    In post #8158, Merc1 replied thusly:

    "I actually looked through the Price Paid and Buyers Experience boards here for every Mercedes model and guess what, not a single post anywhere about such irrelevant things about earnings and the like..."

    Simply classic ! Talk about two posts in opposite direction....
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,683
    Thanks OAC - merc just doesn't get it. He thinks these buyers are nothing but car geeks. Try and find a lux car buyer who doesn't know MB has hit some hard times and that it gives them pause for thought.

    Lexus aces everything as usual in the April CR issue.You'll have to really stretch to find half red circles in anything - reliability, satisfaction, depeciation etc. No improvement at all from MB in reliability even on the 2004 cars. Owner satisfaction is another big win for Lexus. In general all German car reliability scores show that they are sliding further and further south.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Seen recent MB sales lately ?

    Mercedes-Benz USA
    Sales -- February 2005

    Feb Feb Mth YTD YTD Yearly
    Model '05 '04 % 2005 2004 %

    C-class 4,020 5,819 -30.9% 7,568 10,582 -28.5%

    E-class 2,596 3,965 -34.5% 5,321 7,831 -32.1%

    S-class 1,028 1,354 -24.1% 2,092 2,807 -25.5%

    CL-class 127 218 -41.7% 262 393 -33.3%

    SL-class 835 1,232 -32.2% 1,512 2,454 -38.4%

    CLK-class 1,459 1,488 -1.9% 2,684 2,896 -7.3%

    SLK-class 1,062 305 248.2% 1,943 578 236.2%

    CLS-class 1,358 n/a n/a 2,136 n/a n/a

    M-class 944 1,666 -43.3% 1,924 3,525 -45.4%

    G-class 84 127 -33.9% 172 277 -37.9%

    TOTAL 13,513 16,174 -16.5% 25,614 31,343 -18.3%
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,683
    Wow - I may have been too generous with the 3 years I gave them. This is gonna be a real bad year for MB and DCX. But the reliability was always a minor issue according to so many on this board, wasn't it? The so called passionate buyer will always put up with it. Maybe BMW's buyer, though I know that is somewhat of an overblown statement, but certaimly not MB's. I should go find posts I made 3 years ago saying this was inevitable. So is their fall from top lux brand in perception before too much longer. Of course you realize this will be translated to you and I saying they are going out of business which of curse we are not.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Model Feb Feb Change
    2005 2004 %

    ES 330 4,583 5,546 -17.4
    LS 430 2,028 2,357 -14.0
    SC 430 542 619 -12.4
    GS 300 1,602 541 196.1
    GS 430 345 107 222.4
    IS 300 428 705 -39.3
    LX 470 584 669 -12.7
    GX 470 2,482 2,437 1.8
    RX 330 7,131 7,564 -5.7

    TOTAL 19,725 20,545 -4.0

    The maligned 2006 GS twins are clearly doing well right out of the gate. But will they sustain the momentum ?

    Source: CL
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Just to keep the numbers honest...

    Model Feb Feb Change
    2005 2004 %

    3-series 7,181 7,669 -6.3
    5-series 3,794 7,072 -46.3
    7-series 1,127 1,310 -13.9

    source: CL
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    And finally....

    Model Feb Feb %change
    2005 2004
    A4 2,760 2,273 21.4
    A6 1,264 789 60.2
    A8/S8 338 424 -20.3

    source: CL
  • Wrong on safety my friend. The A8 just was rated as one of the safest cars Ever tested. Regarding performance - zero to 60 times - are you kidding me? Like we are going to race our luxury cars zero to 60? Ridiculous. Just look at comparisons and you will find that the A8 comes out on top of most of them. An example - Edmonds.com 2 years running. Also Automobile Magazine.
  • So much for "all the people you know". This sounds like so much "my dad is tougher than your dad".
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Its amazing the cycles we have here. Every year about this time we have the same harping about MB sales, yet each and every year-end its the same thing...a MB sales increase. Best example of meaningless hype if there ever was one.

    Yet all the while the doom and gloom theorist continue with meaningless, baseless predictions.

    Now we add to list of hysteria about buyers having pause over buying an MB because of MB's financial status, yet this is but a one person theory that has yet to be proven by anything other than the same old tired sales harping that we get on this board every year, usually in the first three months. Mercedes sales drop = crisis, Lexus sales drop = "The maligned 2006 GS twins are clearly doing well right out of the gate."

    This is the same group so savvy about marketing trends and buyers habits yet doesn't realize that Jan-March are typically slow months for luxury car brands. Nearly every lux brand is down in sales for Jan and Feb, yet the only problem is with Mercedes who's buyers bought over 27K units in Dec, yet from Dec 31st to Feb 28th all of a sudden realized that shape that Mercedes' corporate ship is in and decided not to buy just that fast. This is the most ridiculous insinuation yet. Complete nonesense. All of a sudden for 2005 buyers have shifted and started reading whatever about MB so they quit buying in the span of two months.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The thing in your reply that excited OAC is that you're trying to say that I said that the quality and financial well being of a company doesn't make any difference to buyers.

    Stop. I said that the financial well being (basically all the Toyota profit stuff) of a company doesn't make a difference to most buyers. I have clearly said over and over that quality surveys and the like do keep buyers away from any brand that doesn't do well on them, including Mercedes. You're trying to tie your off-base theory about buyers caring about profits and corporate matters to them caring about reliability reports. The ultimate spin from you. They aren't the same thing.

    If you aren't going to quote me correctly then please don't bother because that isn't what I said.

    One minute buyers are clueless in buying a Mercedes because they are blinded by prestige and styling, yet in another they are way to smart to be fooled. Which is it?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    It never fails. Every year around this time we get the sales stuff from you and just like in the first quarter of 2004 sales were down for MB and BMW (last year), but they rebounded only to give MB and BMW increases for the year. You'll be proven wrong again at the close of 2005.

    What is the point? Lexus had a drop in every model except their new GS and ditto for Mercedes except for their new CLS and SLK. They're in the same sales boat yet you and Ljlfx are predicting the worse for MB, yet Lexus had the same sales drop. Do you see why this obvious hype wasn't taken seriously last year and won't be for this year? The second (incorrect) straight year of this I might add.

    How is what I said to Ljlfx in the "opposite direction". He implied something and no buyers on any board anywhere here even hinted at caring about what he says they should care about, the financial status and earning of a company. I never said that buyers didn't care about quality and reliability reports.

    M
  • Your point is well taken...The A8 is far too slow to race in this group...even with a 46hp advantage.

    I would love to the safety figures you are referring to. Are you saying there is A direct comparison between A8 and LS430 in Edmonds? and that Comparison includes safety tests?
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    Wow, that E-bay seller site that you provided is so professional and no doubt 100% indicative of Mercedes reliability issues. (Sarcasm).

    I didn't see Lexus parts on the list.

    No joke? Maybe that's because this is a European site and Lexus really isn't a brand in Europe. However, on that same site I found a Toyota recall for the power steering pump on the Toyota Avensis... Ouch that can't be very safe.

    Looks like Toyota had to recall 150,000 Camry's because of faulty side airbags: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/toyota_camry.html

    And this site shows other safety related problems arising in bullet proof Toyota/Lexus cars: http://www.geinsurancesolutions.com/erccorporate/resources/pc/pro- - - - - duct_recalls/

    Mostly just minor things like 400,000 Camry's being recalled because of "defective brakes" and 34,000 Seinna being recalled that "Do not comply with safety standards." What about "axel bolts may losen," and various Lexi with "Defective brake lights"?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that MB or others haven't had issues, but you make it sound like Toyota/Lexus is invincible. The ponit is, saying that MB safety features will fail when you need them is absurd.

    * I can't get the geinsurancesolutions site to post correctly, so you will have to take out the hyphens between "pro-" and "-duct" with no space for the link to work.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I wouldn't bother debating that. It was just too disingenuous to begin with for them to suggest that Lexus doesn't ever have a part fail by them saying that they couldn't find any re-manufactured Lexus parts on that website.

    M
  • Ok I just read the Edmonds compairson and there have been NO safety tests done on the A8

    It is difficult how you can say the A8 is safer using the Edmonds data?
  • Merc.

    Those of us who own the LS..don't find it hard to believe that so few parts fail that re-manufactured lexus parts are just not something that would have a decent sales volume.

    And it is hard to debate such a stark example of Lexus quality....my heart goes out to you there.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "You'll be proven wrong again at the close of 2005."

    "....you and Ljlfx are predicting the worse for MB..."

    I made no predictions, so no need to be proved wrong. And you should note that I provided the same reports for all the luxury brands *most* discussed around here (MB, Lexus, Audi, BMW).... Fair is fair... You and anyone else can read whatever you like into these numbers. Feel free to defend whatever, I am certainly not defending Lexus or BMW or Audi.... I have no stock in any of these auto companies, so no need to play defense.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    Because they are not the same cars...What Lexus is the Rav 4...Or the Chevy that you showed...Even the Camery which shares a platform with ES only shares 25% of the ES total content...Further all the Models shown were old and out of date most from the 90S.

    But you see, all of those cars were Toyotas. Toyota and Lexus are the same company, so you shouldn't expect "Lexus" to be held to a higher standard of safety than the rest of the Toyota line. Yes most of those are older models, but think of it this way: If it took Toyota/Lexus this long to get their frontal crash tests in order (which they prepare for in advance), how can you expect them to perform in real world crashes where they aren't held accountable through testing?

    Are you saying that A8 and Mercedes S have better performance..When you have already acknowledge that Lexus LS has better Acceleration...it has better 0-60 times then Audi...

    Sorry but 0-60 times aren't the only measure of performance. I would rather have a car that handles and stops well (S) than an unbalanced whale that screeches its way around the track (LS). And trust me, if the S430 loses to the LS430 in 0-60 times, you can be sure that an S500/S55/S600 will walk all over it in this regard. I don't know much about the Audi A8 so I can't vouch for it, but my instinct tells me that it probably outperforms the LS in most, if not all, quantitative and qualitative areas of performance.

    Here are a few of my favorite quotes concerning the chart topping performance of the poised and atheltic LS430: “skidpad grip was weakest of all, 0.73 g;” “Tires eager to squeal…never very involving on the back roads."

    In contrast, the S class and others were universally lauded: “Mercedes was endowed with road grip exceeded only by that of the BMW;” “Three cars in the group (Mercedes, BMW, Audi) stand above the others, having braking distances of 169 feet or better, and skidpad adhesion above 0.82 g;” “Benz gave a first-rate account of itself as it slipped through the lane-change test at 57.4 mph... 4.3 better than the slow-guy Lexus.”

    Safety...We have had that discussion and determined neither car has an edge..even though Mercedes invented Air Bags....40 years ago.

    Actually, the S class does have an edge for safety. Unlike corner cutting Lexus, Mercedes includes rear side airbags as a standard feature in the S as well as across the model line. Also, the S class has pre-safe as standard equipment while Lexus makes you pay for their pre-collision system. And regarding the entire model line, Mercedes has a safety advantage on every car (Standard belt ETDs, standard belt load limiters, standard rear side airbags, standard rollover protection, etc). Lexus likes to skimp and trim on safety as can be seen throughout its model range, but I think this is perhaps most evident with the SC430... A $65k convertible that will literally grind your head off if it flips. The SL on the other-hand, has had the handy pop-up roll bar since 1989, as does the current CLK. Another interesting tidbit is that the side airbags on the SL and CLK (front and rear) are large enough to protect the head and the torso, whereas the side airbags on the SC430 (front only) protect just the torso... Looks like Lexus needs to do some more R&D with all that money they're making. I won't even get into the fact that Lexus is consistently 2-4 years behind the curve when it comes to adopting the new safety technology pioneered by other companies.

    Just add up what we know about MB and Lexus and the answer is clear... or at least it should be if you have an open mind. Apparently you would rather ride in a car built by Lexus, the company slow to adopt safety features, the company with fewer standard/optional safety items, the company with a history of imitation and non-innovation. I would much rather ride in a car built by Mercedes, the company always on the cutting edge of safety, the company with the most available safety features , and the company with an unrivaled reputation for safety innovation.

    To each his own…. ?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Ok fair enough, and no this year you didn't make a prediction so I take that part back, but you did seem to jump in with sales after Ljlfx made his usual prediction about Mercedes falling from this and falling from that.

    M
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