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High End Luxury Cars

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  • vchengvcheng Posts: 1,284
    Lexus has copied the following:

    4 wheels and tires, four doors with windows, front AND back windscreens, the steering wheel, an internal combustion reciprocating engine, a transmission with gears........

    See, the list goes on and on!

    If Lexus had ANY innovation at all, they would stop copying all these clever features first invented by other companies.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Gee, talk about pointless.

    If you read where Oac didn't see any similarities why are you asking me what they are, when you a)obviously don't agree either and b)wouldn't be able to follow what I said in the first place.

    What I said was IMO, which of course is just that, my opinion. If you don't agree then move on.

    M
  • Merc:

    You were the one who brought up the issue...Oac asked what the Styling Clues clues were that you thought were similar ....I would also like to know, who knows I and maybe even OAC might agree with you...You said there were many now you can't seem to name one...Hmmmmm
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "You said there were many...and now you can't name one...Typical."

    Are we talking about styling here or the many claims you've made about Toyota taking MB and others innovations through the years and perfecting them. For that claim which is over a year old (from you) there has yet to be a single answer yet. When are you going to answer that?
    When you can provide proof of such a claim I'll give you exact details of what BMW styling cues I see on the new IS. In short when you live up to your own standard of giving answers for claims then........

    "I am asking what you think was copied, Who knows maybe I will agree, maybe oac will agree..."

    Futhermore I seriously doubt you'd agree with anything you deem negative about Lexus because you don't seem to be able to follow a point about anything Lexus unless it is favorable and thus it is usually a waste of time even discussing anything with you. Also, I didn't use the word copy anywhere, that is your words not mine. Now keep posting asking for answers to something that really wasn't that big of a deal to start with, but I'm done with it and should have been a few posts ago.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "Lexus has copied the following:

    4 wheels and tires, four doors with windows, front AND back windscreens, the steering wheel, an internal combustion reciprocating engine, a transmission with gears........ "


    Hilarious ! Thx for bringing some levity to this. Which would mean that copying is an age-old tradition from the days of Henry Ford !!!! LOL !
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "Lexus in particular seems clueless about what concept cars are supposed to do, preview a product."

    And why should production be the concept ? If concept = production, then why put out a concept ? I work in a firm that puts out product prototypes. Trust me, the final product is often much different from the prototype. That is what marketing input and meeting market demand is all about....

    "Also, Mercedes and BMW usually only put out concepts for a totally new vehicle, not an update of an existing vehicle. Unlike Lexus, Mercedes in particular doesn't need concepts to debut a new styling direction, and neither does BMW (regardless of whether you like their new look or not)..."

    Read footie's response to this. Which goes like this: Germany doesn't think it owes its customers a right to decide what the style of their cars should be. Lexus, OTOH, takes the exact opposite route.

    "BTW, I happen to like what I've seen of the new IS so far, that doesn't mean it is original looking, imo of course..."

    Sigh ! Oh well....
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Michael:

    You are correct, Merc1 didn't answer the question. But that is OK. The answer to my original question seems obvious enough....
  • gshocksvgshocksv Posts: 68
    Car and Driver has a long term Jaguar and other publications show improvment in Jaguar's quality control. I have a 2002 Jag S-Type without any major problem so far.

    The XJ series sure look very nice.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "And why should production be the concept ? I work in a firm that puts out prototypes. Trust me, the final product is often much different from the prototype. That is what marketing input and meeting market demand is all about....

    Here is the problem. It seems that all Lexus types like to equate the car business with other type of business and they aren't always the same. Carmakers use concept cars to gauge public reaction, very true. They also use them preview a new product and I know you know this, but for the sake of covering for Lexus' lame concept cars you have to spin it using a business angle. I don't care about what other businesses do. In the car business most car makers try to come as close to the concept as possible for their production vehicle. Don't think this is true? There are many examples of concepts coming to market looking more or less like their concept versions: Dodge Viper, Porsche Boxster, Mercedes GST, BMW Z9 (6-Series), BMW X3, Pontiac G6 and others. You mean to tell me that the concept Jaguar just made the auto show rounds with, the Advanced Lightweight Concept the precursor to the next XK8 is going to change wildly from concept to production. If you really beleive this about concept cars then you don't know the purpose of having a concept car in the first place. Its to get you ready for the new look or a new model. Why would they turn around and change this if the public reacts favorably to the concept? Unless you're telling me that Lexus customer hated their concepts so they changed it to produce the ugly new GS?

    The Lexus IS looks nothing like that small 2-door concept they showed last year and like I said the new GS doesn't look anything like the sedan concept that all of you all were confused about last year. First it was the new GS and then it was the new IS, yet it turned out to be neither, now comes the excuse about what other industries do.

    If I remember right the "reaction" to Lexus' sedan concept last year, the LF-X whatever it was, was very favorable right? So if Lexus listens so much why did the GS turn out looking like a whale? Guess Lexus went deaf after Detroit 2004.

    "Read footie's response to this. Which goes like this: Germany doesn't think it owes its customers a right to decide what the style of their cars should be. Lexus, OTOH, takes the exact opposite route"

    Are you serious? Lexus gives their customers a say in how their cars look? Is that why the current LS model has spent its entire life looking like a previous S-Class Mercedes? I'm sure all you LS430 owners wanted something more exciting than a 1992 Mercedes design. This is nonesense of the highest order and again an excuse to cover up the fact Lexus is basically clueless about styling in general and concept cars. The only concept that they have shown that will probably make it to market looking anything like the concept is their last one, the sports car shown at Detroit this year.

    I remember it like it was yesterday all you Lexus folk got so excited about that supposed GS concept only to be let down by the GS when it finally showed up to be a whale of a car with none of the concept's sleek and airy appearance. Long time Lexus advocates on the other boards were even disgusted. Is this the example of Lexus letting their customers decide what their cars look like? Complete nonesense and reaching at best.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Now let's talk about styling. That, oh so subjective of all topics.... Haven't been through this before ? I bet. But I am happy to oblige you here.

    Contrary to your negative views of the 2006 GS, a greater majority of those who have actually seen this car in person liked it much better than the pics showed. The new GS is better than any of the Bangled BMWs out there today. No contest there. MBs and Audis are always pretty sharp, style-wise, I give you that. But I have repeatedly told you that MB styling only got better in the 90s. The older MBs are stodgy, slab-sided, but highly functional, rock-solid build and of excellent overall quality. Its only in the '90s MB began the styling direction with their bug-eyed E-series. So, let's give Lexus its due props... The company is only 15 years in the Luxury car/truck business, unlike BMW and MB's long heritage of producing crappy-looking, but highly efficient automobiles until much recently.

    I guess, the long-and-short of my post here is simply this: Lexus styling will evolve over time, and they'll only get better at it. The LF concepts (A, C, S, X) are all in the right direction. Watch Lexus take off by MY2007 with the launch of the re-designed LS. This will re-launch Lexus globally at a time of MBs greatest weakness and vulnerability. Trust me, you don't want to be in MB's shoes with a new look Lexus company, propped up with $20B of Toyota profits going against a weakend and highly vulnerable MB. The battle promises to be a lotta fun from here. Just watch and learn something about the business of car making....
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Contrary to your negative views of the 2006 GS, a greater majority of those who have actually seen this car in person liked it much better than the pics showed."

    But did you? What does the majority have to do with anything? Lexus buyers will adore anything Lexus makes regardless of how it looks, the LS, ES, RX prove that. You seem to imply that I haven't seen the car in person. I saw it over a year ago and again this year and now on the road, and its and ugly whale of a car, imo.

    "The new GS is better than any of the Bangled BMWs out there today. No contest there. MBs and Audis are always pretty sharp, style-wise, I give you that. But I have repeatedly told you that MB styling only got better in the 90s. The older MBs are stodgy, slab-sided, but highly functional, rock-solid build and of excellent overall quality. Its only in the '90s MB began the styling direction with their bug-eyed E-series. So, let's give Lexus its due props... The company is only 15 years in the Luxury car/truck business, unlike BMW and MB's long heritage of producing crappy-looking, but highly efficient automobiles until much recently.

    All highly IYO because while I won't pretend that MBs always looked as good as they do now, but they were far from crappy looking. Going by how 80s Toyotas used to look and that first ES250 Lexus' cars would have looked even worse than those slab-sided Benzes. I find nothing wrong with the looks of the 1981-1991 S-Class or the SEC coupe from the same years, timeless to me. The 1986-1995 E-Class also had a timeless Mercedes look, especially the 300CE/E320 Coupe from those years (1988-1995). Hardly "crappy" looking.

    Toyota on the other hand has long been a the very bottom on the styling scale. Stylewise Lexus hasn't earned any "props" with me since the original SC300/400 and until I see this new IS in person...

    Yes I'm one of the few that like the new 5-Series, but I still can't stand the 7-Series. My problem with the 5-Series isn't styling so I don't think the GS looks better in that regard.

    Styling it seem as everyhing else reverts back to Lexus and Toyotas profits and how they're going to take over the world. Time for a new line as that one is past tired. All the money in the world doesn't always mean the best products, maybe from a reliability standpoint, but not even Toyota/Lexus has hit all homeruns with every product.

    M
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Gshocksv,
    I've researched the last gen XJ (98-03) alot and have noted a steep improvement in reliability. I'm pretty sure Jag is on the way up in this regard, but their ratings drop with every introduction of the new model. The new XJ is a disappointment. It looks too much like the X-Type, and doesn't have that classic Jaguar look to it. It's almost like the prom queen who's put on a few too many pounds. (apologies to any women on this board..) I'm strongly considering buying a 03 XJ8 once I get back to the US. I've seen so many in London and they look outstanding.

    Merc,
    I'd the first to agree with you on the styling argument. The only LS I like is the 92 that I still have. The 2005 is a significant improvement on the '02 that I had..Its' profile is not as sleek as I like though..It was part of the reason I considered the S Class before I got my new car.

    The recent Lexus styling is even blander..I maintain that the original designs were the best ones. The GS looks "okay" and the IS does look interesting. RX, LS, SC are all just okay. The ES just looks really weird. I think the rear is elegant but the front look is like a smiling bug.

    It's why I'm hot for the XJ8..It may have some issues, but it's still the looker of the lot. (At least the old one) I feel that manufacturers are compromising looks for aerodynamics. I haven't seen a real stunner from anyone in recent time. I don't think all of the 80's MB's were slab sided. I'd still buy a mid 80's SL in a second if they still made it. IMHO the 80's Benzes were quite elegant and looked solid.

    SV
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Let's see MBs styling trend from the '70s to date. Judge for yourself.....

    1970s styling:

    1971 280SE
    image

    1980s styling

    1989 SL560 Coupe

    image

    1990 MB styling:

    1993 MB 600SEC

    image

    1996 MB E320

    image

    2000-and up MB styling

    2005 S500

    image
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Um, I think merc1's feelings about MB's styling have been well-established.

    It is time for some of you folks to agree to disagree and move on.

    Really.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Uhm, Pat... Has that "link" issue being fixed now ? I kinda think so, but want you to confirm. Remember my deal ?

    :)
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    To my knowledge, it has not - and that has nothing to do with the fact that it is time to agree to disagree on these issues which some of you keep beating into the ground. It is beyond obvious whose minds are not going to be changed no matter what is said by whomever else.

    We are in an area where the comments are too repetitive and too personal and not doing anything but driving other members off. That's not what we're about here.

    Let's move on.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Hmm, maybe the link problem has been fixed?? I've seen one link that I would have thought might be broken and it's not - but it wasn't long enough to make me sure. Guess time will tell.
  • iancariancar Posts: 31
    I think there is a reason for why Japanese cars look bland to you. The reason is many new cars are Japanese brands. For example, everytime i stop at traffic lights i will see either corollas or civics. For some occassion, i even saw 3 or 4 civics at once. Therefore, even the car with greatest style in the world will look bland after millions driving in one. After i got my LS i start to appreciate how Japanese put perfection and innovative ideas with carefully managed details. Everything you touch is polished and soft. The rear seats are filled with choices. (i loved the rear seat accessible cool box)My past S430 is a strip down car compare to that but it cost me at least 10k more.(not to mention the repair cost)
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    each and every photo is of a classic and unforgettable automobile. MB's styling is
    head and shoulders above Lexus. it is original
    and timeless. how many picture posters will be on college dorm room walls, teenagers bedrooms, or any place of automotive enthusiasm that contain a Lexus in them?.....none. Lexus has yet to put together a design that isn't forgettable the moment it goes out of production...in many cases even sooner.

    when Lexus has any type of concept vehicle that the Lexus faithful become excited about the first thing Lexus does is.....scrap it. i don't know why but they then go back to the car they are replacing and make subtle changes to it and then call it new. just look at the GS. maybe it's not a bad idea to scrap their concepts because most of them are so outrageously styled and odd that i doubt they could give them away if they went into production.

    people can harp all day long about CR's, JDpowers....blaw blaw blaw. MB can at least
    correct any quality issues they may have. becoming creative and having original ideas is much much harder to do if not impossible.
  • merc:

    The only big deal is that you would make such a comment and then not be able to back it up...

    On to the next issue
  • Den:

    There is no argument that Mercedes makes a Beautiful car...Unfortunately that beauty is ONLY skin deep...SAD.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,683
    I would say the 70's and 80's MB cars fit the profile of as bland as it gets. Funny that cars that are bland now are criticized by MB lovers today but they can't be critical of past MB bland designs. Hmmmm.

    denaliinpa - Phrase it however you want but Lexus and MB are going in opposite directions when it comes to quality, reliability, sales volume and profits. Everything you talk about is purely subjective and everything the Lexus crowd talks about has real world proof wherever you look.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "The only big deal is that you would make such a comment and then not be able to back it up..."

    Nobody made a "claim" I said that in my opinion that one car looked like another. I didn't pass it off as fact or make a bogus claim like you've been doing for over a year. I gave an opinion, not a factual claim. The difference between what I said and what you "claim" is that mine is just an opinion about styling, yours are based on a limited knowledge of any other car beyond a Lexus and automotive technology in general.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "I would say the 70's and 80's MB cars fit the profile of as bland as it gets. Funny that cars that are bland now are criticized by MB lovers today but they can't be critical of past MB bland designs."

    So now I guess you've changed your mind about the Mercedes SL which you've stated you wanted back in the day? What should really make you go "hmmmmmmmm" is that Lexus still can't design a car that looks worth squat 15 years after their debut. The new IS is about the only hope. How can anyone that fancies Lexus styling call any other brand of car bland is beyond me. Whether it be now or a car from 20 years ago because Lexus is the epitome of bland and nothing designs...today. How easy is it to post picture of a 1971 Benz and call it bland. Lexus' entire 2005 Lexus lineup stylistically forgettable at best. 70s and 80s Toyota looked like the junk they were and if the first ES250 is any indication of what Lexuses would have looked like before 1990, they would have looked like blenders.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    think there is a reason for why Japanese cars look bland to you. The reason is many new cars are Japanese brands. For example, everytime i stop at traffic lights i will see either corollas or civics. For some occassion, i even saw 3 or 4 civics at once. Therefore, even the car with greatest style in the world will look bland after millions driving in one.

    Nah a good looking car looks good no matter how many times you see it. VWs are plentiful too and the Passat in particular is still a very good looking. Where I live on a good Saturday you'll see more Mercedes/BMW/Lexus than you could count and the story is always the same, German lookers and Japanese blanders. What I find really interesting about Lexus is that their chief has shot his mouth off about this new look and so far the car have only come out looking worse, especially the GS. Now the new IS does hold promise. It has the small tight, lithe look of the best European cars, at least in pics.

    One element of good styling is the way the sheetmetal appears to be stretched over the chassis just enough to cover the wheels. Another is no space in the wheel wells. Look at an Audi to see what I mean here. This is one reason why the 7-Series BMW is so ugly, their is too much space in the wheel wells. Ditto for the 5-Series which depends greatly on color and wheel size to look good. The Japanese are getting better at this, but in the past Nissan and Toyota were terrible with this. Any Maxima up until the 2004 model looked like it had an air suspension locked in the highest postion possible. Acres of space between the tire and the body. Mercedes and Audi lead the way in styling, imo. Nothing from Japan even comes close to a E, M3, CL, SL A6, or A8.

    Infiniti is getting there for sure, they're way ahead of Lexus on looks.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "How can anyone that fancies Lexus styling call any other brand of car bland is beyond me"

    For you Merc1, you'd make everyone think that Lexus owners don't live in the real world. And their Lexus is all they care about....Just absolute nonsense...

    "How easy is it to post picture of a 1971 Benz and call it bland."

    To prove how truly BLAND and ugly those MBs were. You'd look at them and call them classic; I'd look at them and call them UGLY.

    "Lexus' entire 2005 Lexus lineup stylistically forgettable at best"

    Really ? Then car styling must be totally out of fashion, when you consider that these bland Lexus cars and trucks COMBINED are the #1 selling brand in the entire NA market. And the beautiful Audis and MBs are going backwards in sales, and hence, market demand. Hmmmmm.... Interesting, don't you think ? If I understand you correctly, buyers of Lexus have no styling taste whatsoever, right ? While those beautifully-styled MBs and Audis are just so gorgeous buyers cannot wait to buy them..... Something happened on the way to the bank, buyers quickly found out that exterior styling is only skin-deep, whereas build quality, reliability and excellent customer service are what matters most. Hence LEXUS' success. Need we remind you most ardent MB fans that you do not even own an MB, nor would you even buy an MB today. Or would you ? Enquiring minds will like to know !

    "70s and 80s Toyota looked like the junk they were...."

    Wanna know what JUNK is ? Ejerod's 2001 and 2002 S500 ? Those were as junky as junk can ever be. Comparing $20-30K Toyota cars of the 70s with $90K+ 2001 and 2002 MBs. Which is junk-ier ? You be the judge...
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    Consumer Reports is coming out again with it's
    auto issue. here is a link about the upcoming issue.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-cars5mar05,0,5658976.story?coll=la-home-business

    a couple of interesting things. first the Lexus GS is the top Lexus. i find this strange because Lexus hardly sold any GS's last year. this leads me to believe the samples that Consumer Reports use are extremely small and therefore imo not credible. and Audi is right behind Lexus 11% to 12%. you know what this means to me...nothing. when it comes to purchasing an automobile CR's is a very small informative tool when making a decision. to rely solely on what they say is "better" is imo ridiculous. when they start reporting how many surveys they received for each vehicle and year i would feel more comfortable.

    i am amazed that people look to CR's Jdpowers as being gospel when it comes to automobiles. keep in mind they are selling you news. they make their money hyping even the smallest of differences between automakers. keeps a roof over their head. just like newspapers, news channels and the like the more they can hype and sell the better "they" do. all information needs to be filtered and weighed with your own personal experiences.

    i receive CR's. i did not fill out a survey. i don't remeber getting one. who know's my 1 survey might have put Audi over the top! i sent them an email last week asking them for information on how they come about their opinions. specifically sample size for the cars in this thread. they have not emailed me back as of yet. i wonder what everyone would think if CR's only receives 20-30 S class surveys a year...if that and even less for the A8.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    Good article, well reported by LA Times, except some details important in this forum (imho) were missing.

    Here's the bottom 4 of the CR list in terms of problems per hundred cars.

    04 03
    BMW 21 19
    Volkswagen 23 19
    Mercedes-Benz 25 22
    Lincoln Ford 26 31

    Here's a quote on response rates:

    "Some brands, including Hummer, Isuzu, Jaguar, Kia, Mini, Mitsubishi and Porsche, were not rated because of insufficent owner responses."

    CR made it very clear that cars with insufficient responses weren't rated.

    One more Audi return wouldn't have changed it's problem per vehicle rate. Statistically it's unlikely that 100 more Audi returns or any one car brand or model would have changed the numbers. That's the way statistics works. It may be hard to understand but study can always help.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Denali (or is it denial?) if you are still in denial about JDP and CR reliability data, I suggest you do a web search for extended warranty companies and price out an extended warranty for a 2005 MB and a comparably-priced 2005 Lexus.

    The results might be illuminating.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,683
    Well merc1 - I love the look of my LS, think the new GS is a great looking car, love my GX470 styling and the new IS looks great. I've never been a fan of the ES, but many like it and the RX is perfect for it's market. The LX470 is a classic, albeit outdated style and the SC430 I have liked from day one. Your problem is you want every car to be a racy design and then the line-up is a hit - in your view of course which is not held by the buying public. Otherwise how would Lexus even selll a car. But MB never had any widespread sporty or racy designs and as OAC states it really all started with the headlights on the E in 96 and accelerated with the new S design in 2000. Before that they were bland cars and of course much higher quality relative to the market.

    Yes my wife and I always had a desire for that old SL but looking at it now in that picture it is a boxy very bland design.
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