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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    i receive a bunch of auto magazines and each and every one of them talk about reliability. not to the imo absurd nature of consumer reports but from what I've seen they don't gloss over it. maybe the auto magazines might best illustrate my position when it comes to this particular topic. there is so much more to a vehicle other
    than 11 or 20 incidents per 100 and likewise 0-60 times. to use only one parameter when shopping for cars .....in any price class IMO short changes the buyer.

    like you though i shop a lot of brands when I'm in the market for a new car. in the past 6 years my end result has been consistently German sedans. after years of Japanese automobiles i just can't get myself to purchase a Lexus. i guess you can say that since bill gates drives a Lexus it is good for promotional purposes but maybe I'm in the minority here i think he's a dork. a rich dork but a dork. plus he is one of the most vocal opponents against abolishing inheritance taxes. a position i feel is way out of touch an very selfserving.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Not for the faint of heart or Lexus LS 430, I guess.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "BTW, Oac I happen to like what I've seen of the IS so far"

    Sounds good to me. Now would you do me a favor and go back for a long hard look at the new GS and see if your views would change or not. That car is a beauty up close.... But to appreciate this, you may need to leave your rose-colored glasses at home on in your car while at the Lex shop

    :)
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety would probably disagree with you. You seem to ignore that frame construction is the Number ONE factor whether it be an airplane or car.

    Wrong. That article mentions that a good structure is necessary in addition to side airbags. A good structure alone simply isn't enough. Besides, why does it matter? You talk as if Lexus has a better structure than Mercedes when there is plenty of evidence that points to the opposite.

    Notice he's saying the same thing I am: Structure is key. Had any of you had an engineering background like I do, you might understand that. An Airbag isn't going to compensate for a lacking structure.

    A strong structure isn't going to compensate for lacking an airbag either. Assuming that Lexus has a strong frame will never compensate for the fact that they penny pinch on vital safety features like side airbags. Again, I would argue that MB, BMW and others have some of the strongest structures available. For example, if you look at the IIHS crash test details for large luxury cars and luxury SUVs you'll notice that BMW and Mercedes usually have the lowest crush levels of all comparable cars tested. With the BMW X5 "Measured intrusion into the compartment was less than in any other vehicle we have tested." How's that for structure for you. On the other hand, Lexus is still having problems with a weak structure/safety cage on the RX330.

    You've already read in prior posts that the LS430 structure is studied at various engineering schools. The LS430 scores equally well in every objective measure out there. You offer opinions, yet I have facts to back up what I say. Not that I wouldn't mind the extra airbag, but it's not going to make a major difference as shown in the results I've posted above.

    What are you talking about? The LS430 has been tested in ONE objective test for a frontal impact at 40mph. As I have already explained, crash tests are nice but they don't reveal the whole picture. There are an infinite number of real world crashes that Lexus is never held accountable for. You have no idea how the LS430 would perform at a higher impact speed, a different offset width, a different angle, roll over, etc. The comment about engineering schools is nonsense to say the least...

    You offer opinions, yet I have facts to back up what I say. Not that I wouldn't mind the extra airbag, but it's not going to make a major difference as shown in the results I've posted above.

    But you haven't provided any facts. All you've done is tried to mitigate Lexus' disregard for safety. Contrary to what you said, that link above shows a MAJOR difference in crash performance. Of the cars with "good structures" like the Corolla, just look at what a difference equipping optional side airbags made in its performance. Before the side airbags the driver of the Corolla would have sustained life threatening injuries. With the side airbags, the driver would have walked away. Now imagine this impressive difference applied to back seat occupants of your LS430 and you'll understand.

    You're still taking that comparo out of context. Go back and read the article. They did say it wasn't a fair comparison, and likened the LS430 to wearing slippery ballerina shoes if I remember the quote correctly. And No, the Lexus never scores dead last in anything. It's usually in the higher end of straight line acceleration and middle of the pack in other performance realms. You can bluster all you want but even the Autorags give Lexus it's due.

    Everything you just said is blatantly inaccurate. Nothing I said was out of context. Again, read the article, Car and Driver NEVER said the test was unfair. Why would they discredit their own review? That doesn't even make sense. Second of all, YES the LS430 DID score dead last for overall performance. It only scored well from 0-60, but in every other aspect, the LS430 score well behind the rest. Give me a break, the LS has lateral grip worse than most pickup trucks. 18 inch tires aren't going to magically whisk the LS from worst to best in class... It simply isn't possible. You didn't even answer my question... why can't I compare an S500 with an LS430 but you can compare a Euro-Sport LS with an S430?

    I've driven a S430 and no, the difference was not huge. The S430 was stripped of options for $78K (List price). The Navigation system wasn't close to that of the LS430. Lexus has been using a DVD based system since 2001, MB 2004. As far as electronics go, Lexus is much better no contest. The Benz looks better and feels marginally better on the highway at 90 MPH. The Lexus has better resale value.

    The difference is huge though. I won't argue with you that the S is more expensive because it obviously is. All I'm saying is that you get that much more out of the extra cost. Also, you're wrong about the Navigation system. DVD navigation has been standard on the S class since 2003 and navigation is still optional on the LS. Not to mention that the S430 is more athletic than the LS by ten fold. How are electronics no contest in Lexus' favor? Mercedes offers all of Lexus' features and then some. And as long as you brought up resale value, I would like to point out that BMW has the highest luxury residual value.

    You keep harping on about Innovation...My answer: We don't care who built it first. So as long as it works. Basically you're making the snob appeal argument, that's what it all boils down to.

    The only reason I mention innovation is because it represents the priorities of the company. With Lexus, the priority is reliability. With Mercedes, the priority is obviously safety as can be seen by their dominance in this area. And it isn't even just innovation... you refuse to accept that Lexus has fewer safety features and is slow to market with new innovations. No one is making a snob appeal argument... I simply pointed out the facts and you refuse to accept them as valid for some reason.

    Sorry, I don't buy my car as status symbol to brag about. I think that perfectly illustrates the difference between Lexus owners and Mercedes owners.

    Wow, that was a pompous and snobish statement if there ever was one.

    It's the same reason I wear a Seiko instead of a Rolex. Reliabilty is better and it does the same exact thing...So why spend $10K for show?

    Apples and oranges.

    <
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    If you're going to consider Objectives, the Lexus wins every time. There is no refuting that one.

    Really? Objectively speaking, here is what we know about both companies:

    1. Lexus doesn't introduce safety innovations.
    2. Lexus is slow to market with new innovations.
    3. Lexus has fewer safety features than MB.
    4. Mercedes paves the way in automotive safety alongside Volvo and a few others.
    5. Mercedes is usually first to debut new features years ahead of Lexus.
    6. Mercedes has many more safety features than Lexus across the entire model line.

    So given all of these objective facts, please tell me again, why do you think Lexus is safer than Mercedes? Clearly what we know suggests the complete opposite.

    I eagerly await your response.…
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "Besides, Lexus makes you pay for things like navigation and pre-safe, both of which Mercedes includes as standard. Anyway, something about your statement makes me skeptical. You say that you were looking at an "S430 for $73k" with "4-Matic, Nav and a few other things." Well that's very interesting considering that Navigation has been standard since the 2000 model year (optional with Lexus) and 4-matic is currently a no cost option (not available with Lexus)."

    Tiag_m5: I am reading this a tad late so maybe Tony (SV) has already responded to you on this, but I am quite mystified by the above quote of your words.

    Lets take the first one:

    Nav on MBs is a standard feature since 2000: So DCX finds Nav to be that important to make it standard on its S-class ? Hmmmm.... interesting... But MB fans hate Nav don't they ? How did MB stoop to that basal level installing Nav in their fancy S-class since MB fans here on Edmunds don't care for it? Maybe the MB fans here are just not representative of MB owner demographics, eh ? Ahhh... I get it.

    Second point, about Lexus making buyers pay for features standard on MB: That's hilarious ! So PCS and Nav are standard on the S-class, right ? But were they free ? Did the $11K+ higher price of the base S430 ($73K) over the LS430 ($62K) have anything to do with these so-called *standard* features ? Hmmmm... Load up an S430 and an LS430 and what do you get price-wise ? You still get a $10K+ premium over the LS. And for what does this premium get you ? Fancy style, knee airbags, turn signals on mirrors, 7-speed tranny on a weak engine, and a boat load of quality and reliability headaches. Did I mention MBs customer service ? Nope. Cos its not worth mentioning, of course. So much for owning a luxury car if you get treated like you own a $20K Chrysler product....
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    Chrysler and Mercedes...Toyota and Lexus...Very similar...In both cases Parent and child are very similar to each other...Chrysler and Mercedes are both unreliable and have difficulity making a profit.......Lexus and Toyota both make the best most reliable cars in the world and are both Blazingly profitable The most Profitable in the World.

    No sorry, the Toyota/Lexus link is entirely different than the Mercedes/Chrysler link. Did you even read my post? Lexus is literally Toyota. They are the same company run by the same people who design the same cars. In Japan, there is no Lexus. Lexus is simply an American market rebadge attempt to trick the elderly into buying $65k Toyotas... and it worked. Let me reiterate: Lexus is not a separate entity from Toyota and it never has been.

    Mercedes OWNS Chrysler and the board of directors are made up of Daimler-Benz executives. Mercedes designs and builds its own cars without Chrysler&#146;s interference. Mercedes may influence Chrysler but the opposite is simply not true. When was the last time Dodge designed a Mercedes? Yeah that's what I thought. When was the last time Toyota designed a Lexus? How about, EVERY TIME.

    The fast one was you trying to run links of 1990 cars and pickups by us including a chevy and not a single Lexus and claim they had anything to do with lexus...HUGE SIGN OF DESPERATION ON YOUR PART TO PROVE THE UNPROVABLE.

    Wrong. I included a Toyota that shared its platform with Chevrolet... still a Toyota. See for yourself. The only reason I listed those Toyotas in the first place was because I WAS ASKED TO DO SO. But then again, if Toyota can't even get its crash tests right, it sure doesn't bode well for its "Lexus" badged vehicles does it?

    A reputation for safety gets tarnished quickly when the cars reputation for reliability goes down the tube...Others Specifically LEXUS/Toyota have safety features that you can be sure will work when you need them.

    Mercedes reputation for safety is shinning brighter than ever. Not only have they innovated and introduced more safety features than any other brand, but also offer the most available safety features. Mercedes' recent bout of reliability problems is unfortunate, but certainly not relative to anything else. These "reliability problems" are nothing more than electrical quirks and other minor things anyway. Engines, transmissions, and other items of importance have proven to be rock solid. Just looked at beloved CR to see for you.

    The ESC in LEXUS works...It is one of the highly replaced parts on the Mercedes...What does that say?

    I never said that it didn't work. I just said that it took 4 years for Lexus to first adopt ESC on some of its models when Mercedes was already making it standard equipment across the model line. So much for Lexus R&D I guess...

    I have already addressed the second part of your comment, at least twice, maybe three times. That link with the "most replaced parts" list was laughable at best. No one would ever allow me to post some amateur e-bay seller site as evidence of a Lexus problem, but as soon as a fellow Lexus cultist does so, it's preached as the word of God. Give me a break. If you can direct me to a credible site run by professionals in the auto industry that says the Mercedes ESC system fails, please do so. Until then, don't back up ridiculous information with even more ridiculous sources. What about the news link I provided regarding the recall of 150,000 Camry's because of faulty side airbags? Guess you just conveniently forgot about that. Looks like Toyota needs to do some more homework.

    Your wrong...Lexus puts all safety features in their cars that 1) work and 2) make sense and provide function...

    1). Mercedes safety features work just fine. Not to mention Mercedes has more of them.
    2). Oh, so I guess rear side airbags don't provide sense and function? Roll over protection bars on convertibles don't provide sense and function? Seat belt ETDs and load limiters don't provide sense and function? Crash sensors that disconnect fuel and batter don't provide sense and function? I could go on and on...

    In typical Lexus loyalist fashion, you deem all things non-Lexus are as frivolous when clearly they are not.

    That is why they often will take a German engineered feature and have to work on it for a couple of years..So when it goes in their car it doesn't become something may not work when needed, something that often needs replacing because of mal-function.

    Sorry, but that excuse simply doesn't fly. All of the safety systems introduced by the Germans have worked flawlessly from day one. The fact of the matter is, Lexus is late to market with safety items because of cheapness and an inability to innovate. If Toyota thinks it might lose sales to Mercedes because it doesn't have a safety system, it may or may not incorporate it... eventually. You can't excuse Lexus for being 4 years late to the front passenger airbag party, 4 years late for ESC, 2 years late for side head airbags, 16 years late for roll-over protection, 3 years late for dual threshold airbags, etc... The list just gets longer and longer. Don't make lame excuses for Lexus; just admit that they fall behind the curve for safety.

    The manufacture of the Lexus provides some cost savings but the Reliability and absentance of Warrenty repairs (because nothing breaks down) provide Huge savings...I know Caddy Budgeted $10,000 into the price of my old Allante for warrenty repairs...God only knows what Mercedes needs to budget for Warrenty...It has to be a very Big number.

    First of all, the economics of car manufacturing and sales has nothing to do with the quality of the vehicle. Lexus costs less than Mercedes for several reasons, and maintenance cost is a small part of the picture. Fewer features, waiting years to implement features, less research and development, lower labor costs, larger economic base (Toyota), less prestige... all of these things are reasons why Lexus costs less than Mercedes. Mercedes has always been expensive brand so increased "maintenance" doesn't fully account for this. Prior to the late 1990s MB vehicles were considered among the most reliable on the road, and prices were still high.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    "Well first of all CR is a fraud."
    Wow! This is huge news. A scandal of mega-proportions!


    Okay, so maybe my comment was a bit exaggerated. But still, I'm not fully convinced that CR is the most accurate guide for reliability. I quickly thumbed through my edition of the annual auto report last week and noticed several odd things that didn't seem quite right. For example, I seem to remember that the BMW X5 had an X for "unreliable" underneath it. Yet if you look at the reliability ratings over the past 3 years for different aspects of the car, most of them range from above average to excellent. There may have been one or two "average" ratings for electrical or power accessories in recent years, but nothing that should drag the reliability rating of the whole car into the can as CR wants everyone to believe. The whole rating system just seems inaccurate and misleading.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    Tiag_M5 has repeatedly said the LS 430 is UNSAFE because of the exclusion of a single airbag. No question all high end marques will fare better, but this goes to show the difference that an airbag will make using a common benchmark.

    I never said the LS430 was unsafe, I just said it was LESS safe than an S class.

    In the Corolla case, it made only a marginal difference. The key here is the structure is the No 1 line of defense in a crash. It goes to show that a single airbag does not make one car safer than the other.

    A marginal difference? Going from &#147;rib fractures and/or internal organ injuries&#148; to a good rating is a marginal difference? Sounds like a pretty large difference to me.

    No doubt Lexus is slower to adopt these measures, but I take issue with calling these cars unsafe because of the exclusion of a SINGLE device. ALL of these arguments can be used to call the Jaguar unsafe too. Will you accuse Jaguar of cutting corners as well?

    But we aren&#146;t just talking about the exclusion of a single device; we&#146;re talking about the exclusion of many devices across the Lexus model line. Not to mention that Lexus took/takes its sweet time in adopting the features that it does/will have to boot. If Lexus feels the need to penny pinch on its flagship LS430 by not including inexpensive side airbags, what does this say about the company in general? To me it speaks volumes about the Toyota/Lexus non-dedication to safety. Also, I would whole heartedly agree with you about Jaguar… I would never vouch for them.

    We all now know the Frame of the LS is used in classrooms for its design.

    I&#146;m not sure I believe that. There isn&#146;t anything extraordinary about the LS frame.

    The crash tests have shown that the LS has performed equally well

    Yes, it did well in ONE test, a test which hasn&#146;t even been carried out with the S or 7. Crash tests are great and all, but with Lexus you have no reason to believe that the LS would perform as well at a different speed, angle, collision type, etc. With Mercedes, you have every reason to believe that the S will hold up in the real world because its part and parcel of what Mercedes is all about… not so with Lexus.

    Now my car took a 30'ish MPH impact from a Honda Civic (of all things). The wheel and suspension took most of the hit. Amazingly the wheel was still straight when they tested it. However everything attached to that wheel had to be replaced. I still don't know where $7000 in damage came from. The engine mounts and coolant container also had to be done. All mechanical work was done by the Lexus dealer using OEM parts.

    I highly doubt that the impact you experienced was even close to 30mph… maybe 15 mph or less. If it was 30, I am amazed and would suspect that the difference in weight between the LS and the civic accounts for the relatively small amount of damage. When you&#146;re in an accident it seems more severe than it really is. When I was broadsided by a drunk in my &#146;98 528i it seemed to me that the driver must have been going at least 70 judging by how far I was pushed across the intersection and how hard my car smashed into the adjacent traffic signal pole. Turns out he hit me between 45 and 50mph according to police reports. Lucky for me, 1998 was the first year that BMW included side head protection airbags as standard equipment on the 5 series. This feature coupled with BMWs interlocking door anchor system, sturdy frame, and side torso airbag probably saved me from serious injury or death.

    This car doesn't have any side impact airbags, pre-collision, or any other electronic measures, but makes up for it in frame construction. I don't think this is an "unsafe" car..I'd take a hit any day in this car.

    No degree of frame construction will mitigate the importance of airbags and the like. Obviously frame strength is important, but I would argue that other safety features are equally important. They go hand in hand. You can&#146;t have one without the other if you want the ultimate in safety.

    While many will disagree I think the old cars were sturdier than the new ones. My friend had a nasty accident in his 1988 MB 300SE and walked away. The car was in the shop for three weeks and was seriously damaged. Like mine, he doesn't have any of this new age stuff. But he wouldn't hesitate to hop back into his trusty 300SE and drive it around. (Mind you he has a '02 S430 but drives his 300SE more..)

    The notion that older cars are sturdier or that new cars are &#147;plastic&#148; is just a myth. No doubt the MB 300SE was one of the safest cars on the road for its day, but newer MB cars have progressed far beyond what was offered in the 80s in both active and passive safety.

    -------

    For those of you that are interested, here is a link that shows some of the many crash tests than Mercedes performs internally in addition to their real world accident investigation team:

    http://www.whnet.com/4x4/mbcrashtesting.html

    This guy's webpage actually has a lot of information about Mercedes safety:

    http://www.whnet.com/4x4/crashes.html
  • topspin628topspin628 Posts: 373
    From my perspective, I believe that CR is spot on in it's reliability ratings. When I ask people about the cars they own and when I factor in my own experience it seems to back up what CR claims.
    For example, I know two people who have the BMW 7 series and both had horror stories with it. I also have asked several owners of MB S Class and have found very mixed results. Some have many problems and others had none. The "many problem" group would be enough to rank it as unreliable. I also asked a technician at the local MB dealer what was the deal with the S Class when I was considering buying one. He told me that most are fine now but if you get a bad one, it's real bad. I own a BMW X5 which we love but has had a few issues and likewise with an MB ML320 we had which was marked as unreliable and also was in the shop more times than we would like to remember. When both of those cars are performing well they are great. That's why customer satisfaction and reliability ratings are sometimes at odds. People can really love some cars that need a lot of "fixing".

    All of this it not very scientific on my part but it's amazing what you can find out by talking to people. And what I've found is that CR seems to be quite accurate both from my personal experience and from just "talking" to folks.
  • hpowders:

    You know Gates just dotes on his kids...you can bet he did the research and the LS was the safest car he could find. He wouldn't want his kids in the Second safest.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I agree that CU can probably do a better job on reliability.
    I notice that the reliability rating for the 2005 BMW 5 series in its auto issue is the worst they give out-a black circle(bottom of page 42). Yet if you go to the back of the issue where all the cars are rated for reliability scores listing 14 trouble spots from engine down to body hardware(page 83) for the years 2002, 2003 and 2004, there isn't one black circle or half a black circle for the 5 series.
    For 2004, the 5 series was given 13 red circles or half-circles(their highest reliability ratings) out of 14 categories! No black circles. One average reliability grade for power equipment. These marks indicate a very reliable vehicle! How then can CU forecast a much poorer than average reliability rating for 2005 based on their data as they do on the bottom of page 42? Very confusing and disturbing.
    I will try to write them on their website to see what gives.
  • Tiag:

    What we do know about safety is:

    1) The safety features in a Lexus are perfected by the Lexus engineers to be as close to perfect as possible before they go into the car...No rushing junk into the market so they can claim #1...

    2) The Safety features in the Lexus will work every time...As their Dependability ratings prove.

    3) When The Stats are viewed...When fatalities are counted, when injuries are looked into...It is the Lexus that is right at the top..THAT IS WHY BILL GATES BOUGHT A LEXUS..SO HIS KIDS WOULD BE SAFE EVEN THOUGH DADDY MIGHT DRIVE TOO FAST.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,677
    "Okay, so maybe my comment was a bit exaggerated."

    As is everything else you say - like this one - "Not to mention that the S430 is more athletic than the LS by ten fold".

    Your opinion of course. I drove both cars often and have to wonder what the heck you are talking about. I had to move to an S500 for proper comparison becaues the S430 felt underpowered.

    Pricing and options - Come on - were you born yesterday or something?? You get an S430 with a bunch of things a Lexus doesn't have standard and its base is $17K more than the Lexus. Now add those options in on the Lexus and add in the things the Lexus has that the S430 lacks and the car price difference drops to $7k. My interpretation is very different than yours. One company forces them down your throat and forces you to pay, thereby limiting your choice and the other let's you make the choices on price vs added equipment. What is the cost difference of $7k really attributable to for the most part - efficiency of Lexus mfr. vs inefficiency of MB's. Even MB themselves acknowledges the latter in DCX's latest Wall Street report which is why they are about to go into cost cutting mode.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    From my perspective, I believe that CR is spot on in it's reliability ratings. When I ask people about the cars they own and when I factor in my own experience it seems to back up what CR claims.

    CR's ratings just don't make much sense. Take the X5 for example. They marked it with a black X as worse than average predicted reliability for 2005... Yet at the same time, we see that the X5 has been improving reliability in all areas since 2000. Furthermore, we see that over the last 2 or 3 years, the X5 has "above average" to "excellent" in all categories except one or two "average" scores for things like electric.

    On the whole, the X5 appears to be a very reliable car, and furthermore that its reliability has been improving every year. Given these facts, I'm mnot sure I understand how CR manages to predict a below average overall score for this model year. It just doesn't make any since.

    For example, I know two people who have the BMW 7 series and both had horror stories with it. I also have asked several owners of MB S Class and have found very mixed results.

    While were talking about personal experiences, I just want to throw in my two cents. Over the last 15 years I have owned 1 Volvo, 2 Mercedes and 3 BMWs. Apparnetly I just have really good luck because none of these cars has presented me with any major problems. I have had less than a few electrical glitches with my Mercedes and one faulty door lock actuator with my current BMW. The day my Mercedes leaves me stranded on the side of a dark country highway with no cell reception, I might consider buying a more reliable car. But so far, my experience with European cars has been nothing but positive on the whole.

    Go figure...
  • Wasn't there just a big recall at Mercedes because the sensors that disconnect the Battery and Fuel line were defective...I BELIEVE THERE WAS.

    What lexus does a Rav 4 and a pickup and a chevy share parts with? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    But the big cost saver is Quality...and the savings from not having to do a lot of warrenty work.

    If the systems all work flawlessly why do marketers have to stock the Mercedes ECS...they wouldn't stock something there isn't a market for..I suppose they are stocking up right now on those sensors I mentioned earlier.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    tiag m5 great links.
    the links you provided show the photo i was trying to find. the S class being T boned by
    a WEDGED SHAPE battering ram. it is amazing how safe the S class is. hats of to MB. i wish i could find some photos of the A8 being tested.
    i can't prove this in anyway but i truly feel that Toyota and Lexus design their vehicles to perform well in the standard tests but not for real world collisions.

    hey guys the LS is a fine car but for me it is not equal to the S. ask yourself what's more important.....CR's blessing or surviving a violent crash.

    as for the price difference between the S430 and the LS. i think a couple of things are being omitted. the S was awd and also the long wheelbase version. these two options alone don't make up the complete dollar difference but i would think it changes the equation by 5k.

    tiag m5...i had an 03 M5. fantastic automobile.
    the only car i have ever missed after i sold it.
  • tiag:

    The X means beware, Probably because they have had problems with the drive system which is not one of the catagories..This is particularly true of the drive systems on 4WD Suv.

    The X does not mean unreliable but rather Beware could be unreliable.

    It is amazing that I know this since Lexus never gets an X...Actually on one ever has and that was the GX470 in 03 But to make up for it they have lots of red chek marks on all their cars...The GX470 got that Chek in 04
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    This is what we do know about safety:

    - Lexus doesn't innovate; Lexus is slow to adopt; Lexus has fewer features.

    - Mercedes innovates more than even Volvo; Mercedes is first to incorporate new features; Mercedes has more features than Lexus.

    So, given what we know about both Mercedes and Lexus, who has the obvious advantage? If you say Lexus, you're just being ignorant. Just accept the truth...

    The safety features in a Lexus are perfected by the Lexus engineers to be as close to perfect as possible before they go into the car

    How are they perfected by Lexus engineers? MB is one of the few that actually releases and perfects features, Lexus isn't one of them. In fact, Lexus hasn't perfected or innovated ANYTHING in the realm of safety. If you have evidence to prove otherwise, please let me know.

    ...No rushing junk into the market so they can claim #1

    Again you resort to belittle and bash MB in order to defend your beloved Lexus. Mercedes isn't rushing any "junk" to market so that they can claim number one. I think it would be safe to say a majority of the safety features that your Lexus does have (never mind the ones that it lacks) came from the good graces of Mercedes R&D. All Lexus does is leach off of the accomplishments of others... if it thinks it might lose sales that is.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    This is what we do know about safety:

    - Lexus doesn't innovate; Lexus is slow to adopt; Lexus has fewer features.

    - Mercedes innovates more than even Volvo; Mercedes is first to incorporate new features; Mercedes has more features than Lexus.

    So, given what we know about both Mercedes and Lexus, who has the obvious advantage? If you say Lexus, you're just being ignorant. Just accept the truth...

    The safety features in a Lexus are perfected by the Lexus engineers to be as close to perfect as possible before they go into the car

    How are they perfected by Lexus engineers? MB is one of the few that actually releases and perfects features, Lexus isn't one of them. In fact, Lexus hasn't perfected or innovated ANYTHING in the realm of safety. If you have evidence to prove otherwise, please let me know.

    ...No rushing junk into the market so they can claim #1

    Again you resort to belittle and bash MB in order to defend your beloved Lexus. Mercedes isn't rushing any "junk" to market so that they can claim number one. I think it would be safe to say a majority of the safety features that your Lexus does have (never mind the ones that it lacks) came from the good graces of Mercedes R&D. All Lexus does is leach off of the accomplishments of others... if it thinks it might lose sales that is.

    When The Stats are viewed...When fatalities are counted, when injuries are looked into...It is the Lexus that is right at the top..

    BUZZZ. Wrong again. There are no fatality stats to be counted so you're just talking out of your [non-permissible content removed] here. As I have already pointed out, the IIHS injury stats are skewed and do not account for a wide array of influential factors and demographics. But hey, as long as we're talking about injury loss data, I would like to point out that the RX, GS and IS score worse than comparable MB and BMW models.

    THAT IS WHY BILL GATES BOUGHT A LEXUS..SO HIS KIDS WOULD BE SAFE EVEN THOUGH DADDY MIGHT DRIVE TOO FAST.

    Really? Did Bill tell you this himself? You guys must be pretty good friends. No actually, I would guess he just wanted a no hassle reliable car. If he wants the safest car for his kids there is no reason to trust corner cutting Lexus.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    You know Gates just dotes on his kids...you can bet he did the research and the LS was the safest car he could find. He wouldn't want his kids in the Second safest.

    Yep, it's so safe that it has fewer safety features than Mercedes. Lexus is so safe that they only adopt safety features years after everyone else has done so. In fact, Lexus is such a safety conscious brand that they haven't introduced or reserached any safety features and instead perform their signature "wait and leach" tactic. Luckily the LS430 has rear side airbags to protect his precious children in a wreck... oh wait, no it doesn't.

    Yep, by the looks of it Lexus is just a regular Volvo when it comes to safety.

    :sarcasm:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes. I agree. For the years 2003 and 2004, there are no black marks against the X5 from CR. This truck received 26 out of a possible 28 above average or better reliability ratings for potential trouble spots for 2003 and 2004. Yet sure enough, CR sees fit to rate its 2005 reliability chances as worse than average.
    I already e-mailed CR asking them to explain the apparent discrepancies regarding the X5 and the 5 series.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    Good. I am interested to hear what they have to say.

    If I recall, this was the case with several MB models as well. Correct?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The problem with CR is they will hold my letter to be printed in a future CR issue. I won't get a quick answer.
    Of course there is also the possibility that my letter to them will not see the light of day.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well, the E and S MB's have a couple of below average ratings for the last several years.
    But the BMW 5 and X5-spotless!
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Here is Tiag_m5, in his own words:

    "Lexus is simply an American market rebadge attempt to trick the elderly into buying $65k Toyotas... and it worked. Let me reiterate: Lexus is not a separate entity from Toyota and it never has been."

    "Mercedes safety features work just fine. Not to mention Mercedes has more of them."

    "Lexus doesn't innovate; Lexus is slow to adopt; Lexus has fewer features"

    "MB is one of the few that actually releases and perfects features, Lexus isn't one of them. In fact, Lexus hasn't perfected or innovated ANYTHING in the realm of safety"

    "So, given what we know about both Mercedes and Lexus, who has the obvious advantage? If you say Lexus, you're just being ignorant. Just accept the truth... "

    "BUZZZ. Wrong again. There are no fatality stats to be counted so you're just talking out of your [non-permissible content removed] here..."

    "Okay, so maybe my comment was a bit exaggerated..."

    and on and on and on................ ad infinitum it goes....
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    regardless if you agree with his posts or not you should check out the links he posted. those tests say a lot about MB and what they do to protect the people who purchase their automobiles. I've seen quite a few test photos on the net but I've never seen a manufacturer use a battering ram to test their vehicle.
  • Tiag:

    Now what good are safety features that don't work

    If we talk only safety features that actually work everytime...Lexus probably wins hands down at least that is what Bill Gates seems to believe and With his resources..HE KNOWS.
  • Den:

    The fact that you have never seen other manufactures do this or that, Does not mean that they don't do this or that...

    I am still looking for that car shaped like a wedge....that might plow into my side.
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