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High End Luxury Cars

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  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    what MB safety features don't work?
    can you add something of intellectual
    value that would prove that Bill Gates
    knows something we don't?
    since you obviously don't understand
    i will help you understand. the fact that MB tests to such an extreme is what is
    the "point".
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    Now what good are safety features that don't work.

    Please, stop with the drivel that Mercedes safety features “don’t work” and show me some evidence to back up your claim. You’ve already discredited yourself enough by posting false claims and making loaded statements without offering the slightest bit of logic in defense.

    If we talk only safety features that actually work everytime...Lexus probably wins hands down at least that is what Bill Gates seems to believe and With his resources..HE KNOWS.

    STOP THE PRESSES: BILL GATES IS BOTH OMNICIENT AND OMNIPOTENT.

    He knows everything there is to know about everything… especially cars. This makes sense because he’s BILL GATES of course! His extensive experience in the software industry certainly makes him the final authority on all things automotive. All hail lord Gates!

    I guess this could make a bit of sense. After all, there is a very fine line between genius and insanity right? Looks like good old Bill has taken a turn for the worse.

    No seriously, who cares what Bill Gates does? Apparently with all of his "resources" he didn't realize that Lexus penny pinches on safety and has fewer safety features than Mercedes. He also failed to realize that Lexus never innovates and falls behind the curve for the adoption of new safety technologies. So much for Lexus and its safety conscious image facade eh?

    The fact that you have never seen other manufactures do this or that, Does not mean that they don't do this or that...

    As long as Lexus continues to lag behind Mercedes for both safety features and safety innovation I see no reason to believe that Lexus would necessarily care to carry out these types of tests. And last time I looked, Lexus didn’t have an accident investigation team…

    I am still looking for that car shaped like a wedge....that might plow into my side.

    No, actually it would be called a “tree” or a “pole” that might plow into your side.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "BTW Merc i went to test drive the 430 yesterday and although i am in agreement with you about mercedes designs in general being more superior to lexus (can't stand the ES in particular) i have to say that i have to disagree with you about the new 430. I think lexus has finally taken a step in the right direction designwise with this new car (finally!)."

    Well there is really nothing for us to disagree on about that, styling is everyone's own thing.

    I personally find the GS to have way too much wheelbase and too much overhang and most of all too much of hump-back stance to be good looking, but thats just me. I guess when I hear new design direction I think of something that doesn't look like the previous car and/or anything else current in the brands lineup, like the Mercedes CLS or 7-Series back in 2002 (for better or worse).

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Didn't want to get into this *safety* issue, but since you asked Denali, let me oblige by showing you links to an LS that went around a bend too fast at 80mph+. Lost control and car hit a post and obviously totalled. Driver lived to tell the story.... So how did he survive such a horrific crash if the LS was so unsafe as being claimed here by some MB fans ???

    BEFORE
    http://www.djxeno.net/Pics/MYLS3.JPG

    AFTER
    http://www.djxeno.net/Pics/MYLS4.JPG

    Oh BTW, he bought another LS since, according to him, the LS saved his life and he would feel safer in another one... (see link)

    NEW RIDE
    http://www.djxeno.net/Pics/MYLS2.JPG
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Sounds good to me. Now would you do me a favor and go back for a long hard look at the new GS and see if your views would change or not. That car is a beauty up close.... But to appreciate this, you may need to leave your rose-colored glasses at home on in your car while at the Lex shop."

    Just for you I'm going to go and check it out, but I seriously doubt that anything will change considering I've seen the car over and over for over a year now. I never take the glasses with me when I visit a competitor showroom, they wouldn't let me in! Seriously though I don't see how you could think such ill-proportioned car is a "beauty". The car looks terrible, especially in lighter colors.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You're wasting your time on that point, you'll never get any proof about Mercedes' safety equipment not working because this claim is one in a long line of claims that have never been proven, at any time on this board in years. First it was that Lexus takes Mercedes' innovations and perfects them. Now it is Mercedes' safety equipment doesn't work. Neither of these claims has ever been proven, only stated over and over again.

    I think its time to move on now because no proof of any of this will ever been given because it simply doesn't exist. Like I said 24 hours ago, when you read things about rear side airbags being gimmicks for bragging rights or you see the total silence about roll-over protection on a convertible, or when one thinks that a Lexus is so perfect to the point of where replacement parts are not needed, its obvious the original poster has nothing logical to debate with so the constant repeating starts. Logic would tell a level person that Mercedes has been making cars in much greater numbers than Lexus for only about 100+ years long than Lexus so there might be a huge market out there for replacement parts, and even on newer ones because worldwide Mercedes sells way more cars than Lexus does. I say worldwide because the original disingenuous post included a foreign website about replacement parts, which didn't even seperate Lexus from Toyota.

    I'm really laughing at the Bill Gates and what he drives and why. This is hilarious. Like someone here knows him and knows why he drives what. Plenty of rich people drive regular cars that cost less than the ones we're debating here, so what! Doesn't say anything about the car, just the person. On that level, Mercedes are driven from all types of rich folks on every continent across the world, in countries where there is no "Lexus". Then you get a response about a dependability survey that indicates that Lexus' safety equipment works. WHAT? I didn't realize that CR and JDP surveyed folks on whether or not their airbags worked or not? This is the silliest mess I've read, well in the last few hours.

    M
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    So how did he survive such a horrific crash if the LS was so unsafe as being claimed here by some MB fans ??

    Wow, from the looks of that twisted pile of metal I would say that it was by a stroke of pure luck that he survived. And again, I never said the LS was unsafe, I just said that the S was safer...

    Oh BTW, he bought another LS since, according to him, the LS saved his life and he would feel safer in another one... (see link)

    Luck saved his life... not Lexus corner cutting. For all you know, he could have survived that crash in a Kia. No doubt the S class would have held up better anyway. I guess all the people that survived crashes in their Dodge Neons probably feel that the Neon is a pretty safe car... Obviously it isn't.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    What I don't understand is that one minute I read about how unreliable the X5 is and that it has had so many recalls, yet CR says there isn't a reliability problem? Can you explain this?

    tiag_m5,

    I'm enjoying the webpage you linked in your earlier post. Lots of info on Mercedes' safety programs, that far exceed government regulations. Its amazing how rear side airbags come into play in certain types crashes, yet here it doesn't matter.

    M
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi All,

    The original quote was this:

    "Four of the vehicles tested -- the Elantra, New Beetle, Forenza and Spectra -- have standard, head-protecting side air bags. But the institute's chief operating officer, Adrian Lund, said the cars had poor structure that failed to prevent injuries to the torso and pelvis."

    The Corolla did indeed do better, but these cars still did worse. It doesn't look like a definitive conclusion here. Despite what anyone says, there is no hard data to confirm what either party is saying.

    I said: "They did say it wasn't a fair comparison, and likened the LS430 to wearing slippery ballerina shoes if I remember the quote correctly." If that isn't an admission what is? You're comparing someone wearing Reeboks to ballerina shoes...This isn't rocket science...BTW Euro Sport is a no cost option, whereas the S500 is a 30K price difference.

    I drove the '03 S430 Class initially. It had a CD based NAV. (I know the '05 Does have DVD though) It wasn't impressive at all. If I remember correctly the CD changer was still in the trunk as well. I didn't see what is so "Athletic" about it. Maybe the S500 is different, I didn't drive it so I don't know. For $78K you are getting more because you are paying more! Compare a $71K LS430 Ultra to get a better idea of value. The only reason Electronics is in Lexus' favor is because of the reliability of Japanese electronics. Reading the surveys it seems Electronics is what is driving down Mercedes' ranking right now.

    Maybe BMW has the highest residual value overall, but the LS430 has the best in class one of 64%. So not only does it cost less, it holds its' value better too. As far as value and reliability goes, the LS is the better deal. I'd give MB the nod on Safety innovation, BMW the nod on performance, and Jaguar the nod on "style." To each his own.

    Granted different consumers have different priorities. It's like my fascination with Jaguar..Sure, it's not going to be as reliable as my LS but it offers better styling and a different experience..I think you will all agree spending $60K on any car is not a fully "Logical" decision. So it is no surprise we see alot of emotional debate on this board.

    SV
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The predicted reliability for the 2005 X5 is worse than average from CR.
    But the data from 2003 and 2004 concerning 14 possible trouble points show above average reliability and it is just these data that CR says it uses for predictive purposes.
    Therefore, based on their accumulated data, the X5 should have been given a better than average reliability rating for 2005 in my opinion.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I have to agree. As much as I am currently leaning toward the LS 430, this guy survived that mess by pure luck.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I don't know about that 64% residual for the LS 430. It seems that Lexus Financial Services keeps that residual disappointingly and dishonestly low. Have you ever been quoted on a new LS 430 lease with a residual higher than 58% no matter how the car is equipped?
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi all,
    I don't lease my cars so I usually don't know about residuals up front. That number comes from a bunch of surveys studying real world car values. I think ljflx is the resident expert on this so he can probably tell you more. Based on my own experience with my old LS430 it seems to be accurate.

    SV
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    " Everytime I am in for service I see these real young looking 60's folks dropping off their LS cars. And in town the folks I know have young kids that play sports with my son. But what the heck - the people I know shouldn't count in merc1's logic but the people he doesn't know should."

    Nobody said that the people you know shouldn't count. I said that you can't pass them off to be the majority.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    This is why I don't care anything about CR because all this "predicted" stuff doesn't take into account the things an automaker could have changed from year to the next, to improve reliabilty.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes. There are flaws in CR's reliability predictions. It would be nice if they issued a disclaimer up front.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Thanks for providing that link. The design talk in that article is not as esoteric as one may think. All they are talking about is the new consistent Lexus look—aka design language—from the GS forward. There is nothing profound and I often find this to be the case with styling analysis. They yack about details but this usually bores me.

    The bottom line is whether the the total design—sum of the parts—works or not. Art speaks for itself and the explanations often get in the way. I often tell this to my colleagues who have the responsibility of selling the designs of my department. If you have to spend too much time explaining, the design isn’t working. Conversely, when it fires on all cylinders faces light up and little is spoken.

    Chris Bangle is always defending and explaining BMW styling. This alone is living proof that it doesn’t work in spite of his corporate brogue with which he attempts to pawn it off as almost being mystical. Terms such as "visually challenging" are often nothing more than specious rationalizations for artistic attempts that fail. BTW if anyone wants to point to BMW sales, spare me. Whatever BMW is doing with their brand auto sales, they should be doing much better.

    The issue with styling within a car brand is whether EACH model succeeds or not, and no explanations by the designer himself, the company, the press, or other pundits are going to determine this.

    According to the article the design language of the GS and IS is going to be manifest in the LS. I see this as neither good or bad news because design language means nothing by itself. Refinement and execution of the individual model is where it’s at. In my opinion said language was applied more skillfully in the IS but strayed in the GS. The situation is similar with the Infiniti G and M. It doesn’t take much to ruin something that has aesthetic potential. Anyone can take a photo of Cindy Crawford and turn her into a troll in five minutes using Photoshop. Doing the opposite is another story. It’s called art.

    It remains to be seen how the LS will come across. I can see it going either way. We will judge it when the artist signs the canvas and the piece is hung in the gallery. I can assure you that little explanation will be needed.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    OAC - What it proves is the whole car buying world has been stupid for decades. We should have all been buying Volvo's since day one.

    This really shows how desperate the MB crowd has gotten to offset Lexus success. They have to hear that they have the best brand and the best car despite survey data that ranks them 31st out of 32 brands in the motherland.

    When you see something like an S430 is ten-fold as athletic as an LS430 and when you see quotes that the consumer world that ranks Lexus a lot higher in quality has to be ignorant - then you know the conversation has reached absurd levels.

    So let's just say yes they do have the best brand and absolute best cars and end this misery. Meanwhile we'll keep being ignorant in our future purchases and take ejerod's advice. Here's that link one last time starting with post 1686. Post 1683 is interesting to.

    bobcatman, "Mercedes-Benz S-Class" #1673, 21 Jan 2005 3:07 pm
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    i have yet to read a post where anyone has
    called the LS430 "unsafe". what i have read
    is posters pointing out the different philosophies between Lexus and MB when it comes to safety. i certainly would prefer to be in a LS430 than many other cars in the event of a crash but if given the choice between the LS and the S i would without any reservation prefer the S.

    maybe someone can lend some light on this. when an automaker pioneers a new safety technology it seems to me that they might patent the technology but yet allow other automakers to use it. does anyone know how this process works?

    hpowders....if your still on the fence and you haven't already give the A8 swb a test drive. sporty, safe, and comfortable all at the same time!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes. Still on the fence. Have 'til July. We'll see.
    Thanks.
  • That's just another reason to NOT have one!

    What's going to happen more often to most drivers; a high speed crash or a radiator hose lets go all of a sudden?????

    Still a fact that none of the imports can run 50 miles at 50MPH with zero coolant. Chaulk another one up for the NorthStar.
  • HP:

    The 14 cryteria do not include the drive train..because CR says there is generally very few problems in that area....the X means there is likely a problem in the reliability of the Drive train that will effect it's overall reliability..They say this generally happens in vehicles with 4wd...

    In the most current issue of CR see the page prior to the ratings and you can read the explination for yourself.
  • I have yet to see a LINK with safety data Proving the S Class is safer then the LS 430...You would think a German car guy would find something like that...IF IT EXISTS.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes, I saw it buried in the small print-the drive system.
    Thanks, Michael.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Your comment is ludicrous and inappropriate.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi All,
    I don't care what car you're in, if you hit a concrete beam at 60 MPH there is no way you're walking away from that one. That crash is being investigated in the UK right now as part of some special commission..

    I think it's a testament to Mercedes engineering that the bodyguard survived that horrific crash. Also, the rear seat passengers were NOT wearing their seatbelts. Mercedes' safety innovations aren't going to help anyone if they're not buckled in!!

    We all know Mercedes is the class leader in safety (or is it Volvo?) The question posed in this forum is whether a LS430 would fare as well..There is no hard data to confirm or deny the conclusion that it would or would not.

    Does Mercedes innovate first when it comes to safety? Yes. Does the addition of an rear side airbag make a car safer than another? Conflicting data on that one. As the small car crash data showed, the cars equipped with them standard did worse than the Corolla optionally equipped with them. The Corolla did fare poorly without the airbags..So there is no clear answer here.

    It can be assumed all of these cars are built to a very high spec safety wise. You do get what you pay for. I'd feel equally safe in a XJ8, LS, 7 Series, Phaeton, A8, or S Class. They're all built like tanks. It'd be interesting for someone to crash all these cars (Quite expensive too) and find out if anyone stands out from the rest.

    My guess is that they'll all do comparably well. Much like that small car comparo no one would really stand out. I was expecting the Volkswagen New Beetle to win that crash test. I've been in one a few times and it feels solid. It was surprising that the Corolla did the best..I've always regarded the Corolla as a tin can. As tiag_m5 pointed out my postulation about "plastic" cars not being as safe is in fact false.

    SV
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    To infer culpability in Princess Di's death on Mercedes is ludicrous and ignorant.
    She was not wearing a seat belt so at that insane and irresponsible speed inside a tunnel she would not have survived in any car. Perhaps she would have survived if she was wearing one. Yes even in a Mercedes.
    By the way, in this month's CR Auto issue, both the Mercedes E320 and S430 are rated better in accident avoidance than the Lexus LS 430.
  • Do you know what they measure for accident avoidance? Is it consumers input or the amount of accindent avoidance tech in the car?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The auto engineers can only do so much. Humans have to work with the technology. You get in an accident and you're not wearing a seatbelt, how dumb is that?
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi all,
    Here's an interesting article on safety features:
    http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/sep01/intel.html

    It shows that alot of the work is being done in both the US and Japan. Not terribly surprising.

    http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv4.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=113369&FOLDER%3C%3Efo- lder_id=113261&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=333137

    This indicates the criteria used for judging accident avoidance. (Braking and Handling) I know the braking performance of the LS is on par with everyone else, but we're all aware of the handling performance compared to the others.

    Were the E320 and S430 4-Matics by chance? I think another consideration is profile..The LS isn't a low slung car like the MB counterparts. That probably doesn't improve the handling situation either. How did other marques compare to Mercedes? And how different was the performance for the LS and S?

    Thanks,
    SV
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