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High End Luxury Cars

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  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The BMW 530i was also rated the highest for accident avoidance along with the 2 Mercedes in the April 2005 CR Auto issue.
    Both Mercedes were reviewed with 5-speed automatics.
    The E in June 2004. The S in November 2003.
    Both the E and the S received CR's worst reliability ratings when reviewed in these issues.
    The BMW 530i received the safe "new" reliability rating in the June 2004 issue of CR. It was reviewed with the 6 speed automatic.
  • Oh ok, I was just wondering how they went about obtaining that information.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Thanks Designman for your thoughts on the IS. C&D is conducting a poll on the style of the new 3 and new IS. Guess who is winning ?... It ain't the Bimmer....

    Talking of the future LS, MT did a sketch-pad for the new LS (and the new IS).

    http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied/112_0406_sketch/index.html

    Obviously, they missed the boat on the IS by a mile. Methinks they'd be far-off as well on the new LS. But that LS sketch ain't that bad tho'...

    If many of Lexus fans lost sleep wondering what the new IS design was going to be, info on the next LS will even be tighter to find. I expect it to start the auto show rounds by next Spring. Maybe debut in Geneva or NY. It's gonna be one heck of a release, and I cannot wait for it to arrive here. I got my check in my hand waiting/salivating for the next LS.

    18 months to go... I'll start my countdown and do it on a monthly basis....
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I agree that this conversation has reached absurd levels, but say it all on the part of the German car fans simply isn't true at all.

    Rear side airbags don't make a difference and are there for bragging rights? Tell me that is logical and sane.

    The SL/CL/S600/S55 AMG are not luxury cars? This statement is credible?

    Mercedes' safety technology, which in its basic form is present in some form or another in every other car on the road - doesn't work when needed? There still has been no proof of this given, and this sounds logical to you? You're actually buying this? Of all the former Mercedes owners you know which one of them had an accident in which their MB's safety tech didn't work?

    Not a single reply about roll over protection in a convertible from a single Lexus fanatic? I guess it isn't important right? I can't even think of a single German convertible that doesn't have rollover protection, even the 20K VW Bettle has it. Yet a CD player in the trunk of a SL compared to being the dash like the SC430 is something of greater concern? Talk about being mired in nonsense.

    Why is that a debate about safety or anything concerning Lexus reverts back to a reliablity survey? You can't address the issues being presented?

    You mean to tell me that these other issues are so beyond the defense or grasp of the Lexus fans here to the point that you have dig up a survey about MB's reliability in Germany, yet in the same breath when a German car fan says something about MB,BMW and Audi on the worldwide stage it doesn't count, yet a German survey does to all of us who live in the U.S.? This is highly hypocritical.

    Then a parting paragraph that still depends on one MB owner is supposed to be taken as the typical experience of any MB owner, yet the things the LS has had to be recalled for doesn't exist?

    Your argument is just as absurd as the others because you don't answer the question or issue that was originally being debated, only more about surveys and a lame website about S-Class problems, like no Toyota/Lexus ever has problems.

    Now we have another Lexus supporter implying that a Mercedes isnt' safe because of the Princess Di accident. This is a logical arguement to you? Lets ignore the obvious desperation to even mention such a thing, and remember that the only person wearing their seatbelt survived what had to be a horrific crash in what was a tank of a Mercedes, the W140 S-Class. The car did its job and saved the life of the belted occupant. The car hit a sold concrete support for a tunnel, which doesn't give one inch, and yet the person belted survived. If anything this is a ringing endorsement of how safe a Mercedes really is.

    It takes two to participate in an "absurd" conversation, and here we have many on both sides.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    " Does the addition of an rear side airbag make a car safer than another? Conflicting data on that one. As the small car crash data showed, the cars equipped with them standard did worse than the Corolla optionally equipped with them. The Corolla did fare poorly without the airbags..So there is no clear answer here.

    It would seem to me that having these rear side airbags in the LS surely wouldn't hurt either. Having them would only make the car safer. You seem to imply that it wouldn't make a difference, and I'm sure Lexus doesn't agree with you on that one because you can bet the 2007 LS will have them. Question: did you look at the website that tiag_m5 posted in which rear side airbags are illustrated in where they are positioned in regards to a baby seat in the rear or a small child in the rear? You mean to tell me that a small child or babyseat that isn't in the center position wouldn't benefit from a rear side airbag, a air-bag curtain isn't going to help a child in this situation.

    You can't use the Corolla here its a totally different class of car, and doesn't apply.

    M
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    If MB is so safe, why did Princess Diana die? I bet she would survive if she were in a Lexus.

    I was waiting for someone to bring that up :) If you knew any of the details, you would know that this only proves how safe MB is. Let me explain:

    The 1994 S-Class that Princess Diana was riding in had the most advanced safety features and structural design of its day. The estimated speed of impact into the concrete pillar was over 80 mph. Only ONE person in that car was wearing a seatbelt... Guess who survived? Yep, the body guard in the front passenger seat lived to tell the tale. Everyone else who wasn't wearing a seatbelt perished... including Diana. If you don't wear your seatbelt, ANY and ALL of a vehicle's passive safety features are rendered next to useless. It doesn't matter how well the crumple zones or airbags were designed because they all depend on seatbelt use to work effectively.

    This crash is really a testament to Mercedes safety. The fact that the only person wearing his seatbelt survived a head on crash into a concrete pillar at 80mph is simply amazing. Kudos to Mercedes for engineering such a safe car... it's really a pity that Diana chose not to take advantage of it.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Exactly! That really was a desperate (and thoughtless) move to even mention that because the facts speak for themselves, in favor of Mercedes-Benz!

    M
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    I have yet to see a LINK with safety data Proving the S Class is safer then the LS 430...You would think a German car guy would find something like that...IF IT EXISTS.

    This is precisely the problem; it doesn't exist. There isn't any data collected by any agency that illustrates relative fatality rates for different cars. And because there is no data to analyze that would tell us which car produces fewer fatalities, we have all the more reason to trust MB instead of Lexus. It makes a lot of sense if you think about it. In case you didn't catch it the last 20 times I posted, we have several basic premises to consider when evaluating the relative safety of MB and Lexus vehicles:

    - Mercedes is consistently on the forefront of safety innovation and has been for 100 years.
    - Mercedes introduces new safety features and structural designs before anyone else (as do Volvo and BMW).
    - Mercedes makes new safety features standard on all models when other make them optional.
    - Mercedes offers more standard safety features than Lexus.
    - Mercedes has an accident investigation team that analyses real world crashes to improve the designs of its vehicles.
    - Mercedes conducts internal crash testing rivaled only by Volvo in its extensiveness.

    The converse is true of Lexus:

    - Lexus is never on the forefront of safety innovation.
    - Lexus takes many years to adopt new safety features after its rivals have already done so.
    - Lexus makes many safety features optional or half-assed when rivals have already made them standard.
    - Lexus currently offers fewer standard safety features than Mercedes across the entire model line.

    Given these facts, it seems pretty obvious what the priorities of each company are. Clearly, safety isn't a priority with Lexus while it most certainly is a TOP priority with Mercedes.

    Think about it this way: Pretend you have no prior brand bias towards either Lexus or Mercedes. Based on the truths outlined above, who builds a safer car? All the evidence points to Mercedes. Nothing would suggest that Lexus is even remotely concerned with safety in the way that Mercedes is.

    Now I'm not saying that the LS, or any other Lexus, is a deathtrap. But, given what we know about these companies the evidence suggests that Mercedes has a greater concern for safety than does Lexus. I would hedge my bet towards Mercedes offering better crash protection in the real world. And as far as safety is concerned, I only want the best... I don't want "almost" or "good enough" for myself or my family.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Mercedes has an accident investigation team that analyses real world crashes to improve the designs of its vehicles."

    I forgot about this! Mercedes, Volvo and Saab all collect cars in Europe after accidents to see exactly how they perform in real world crashes. If that doesn't lead to a safer car I don't know what does. A controlled test environment to conduct crash tests is something that every carmaker has, but how many actually collect real world wrecks and study them to improve them? That is most telling about how serious European brands in general are about safety. These three in particular have been recovering their real world wrecks for years and years long before anyone else even considered safety to be an important part of their car building process. A lot of makes jumped on the safety bandwagon after it become popularized by brands like MB and Volvo.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    There is a rear end picture floating around on other websites:

    image

    Can't really see much but everyone elsewhere is convinced this is the butt of the real thing.

    That looks to be the rear of a Maybach in the background.

    M
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    You guys are really losing perspective here. Merc1 is right; adding rear airbags to the LS would only make the car even safer in some circumstances (including a small child or baby in the back seat).

    Can I refer you back to my post #7999: "Sometimes in the heat of discussion, we lose sight of the obvious. But note that it is rare to see someone argue here that the LS is safer than the S, or has better driving dynamics, or has more prestige. Nor do you see many people saying the S is really more reliable than the LS, or that its electronics are better, or that you get more bang for your buck in the S. That disagreement may be true in comparing the traits of other cars, but not these two. We just disagree about how to weigh the importance of the different factors, not which car possesses which dominant trait."

    Folks, there is simply no basis for arguing the LS is safer than an S. Can't we all agree that MB has placed a great emphasis on their engineering of safety features-- and this is just one of many things that Lexus has sought to emulate about the MB, but perhaps has not stressed as much as MB (or even Volvo). That still doesn't make the LS unsafe.

    But one argument I have seen made by the German fans that drives me crazy is that when choosing a car, somehow the German cars should be given points for the 100+ years heritage of the brands. That's absurd. Name one engineer, designer, line assembly worker, or whatever that had a hand in a car from the 1920s that worked on a car being sold now. Heritage only means anything if you trace it into the present and you can DRIVE it! Heck, if International Harvester or John Deere came out with a better driving, safer, better-looking, cheaper, more reliable, better warranted and supported luxury car tomorrow, I would buy it and not give one twit about the "heritage" of Daimler, BMW, Rolls, LS or any other company.

    The sad fact is that MB has forsaken its heritage, not respected it. It's just a question of "What have you done for me lately?"
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "But one argument I have seen made by the German fans that drives me crazy is that when choosing a car, somehow the German cars should be given points for the 100+ years heritage of the brands. That's absurd. Name one engineer, designer, line assembly worker, or whatever that had a hand in a car from the 1920s that worked on a car being sold now. Heritage only means anything if you trace it into the present and you can DRIVE it! Heck, if International Harvester or John Deere came out with a better driving, safer, better-looking, cheaper, more reliable, better warranted and supported luxury car tomorrow, I would buy it and not give one twit about the "heritage" of Daimler, BMW, Rolls, LS or any other company."

    I hear what you're saying, but with me it isn't always a question of heritage, but experience. I think that European brands in particular have a lot more experience to draw upon when it comes to things like safety for example. The things MB/Volvo learned and pioneered back in the day are still present, only updated in their cars today. This same argument will be made 20 years from now regarding Toyota/Lexus and Hybrids. Don't you think Lexus is building their heritage based on quality like Mercedes did back in the day? You can be sure that years and years from now after we're all gone that Lexus will have heritage too, but it likely won't be for design, racing victories or safety innovations like Mercedes, but for quality, hybrids and anything else they manage to excel at compared to the other luxury car brands.

    Times change and Mercedes others like Audi can't help it that some consumers aren't interested in the great racing victories and innovations that made these companies great, but I to say they don't matter at all I totally disagree with of course. Even their styling, MB and Audi particular has stayed true to this. That new Audi grille that most Lexus folk here don't like is a direct link back to the great Auto Union racers of the 30's, a time where Mercedes and Auto Union beat the best from every other brand in existence at the time. For the people who are draw to a Euro brand for these reasons, this stuff is priceless. Are they the majority of course not but debating the merits of this stuff with an enthusiasts is pointless, they'll never disregard it.

    This is why I've always said these types of view points seperate the enthusiast from the survey chasers. I mean really everything automotive is a survey or worse a sermon about earnings, thing so far removed from the mind of a person wanting a particular car for what it is, not what the company earned last quarter. One group will never, ever agree with the other, so your original point about what is more important and how to weigh it is very correct and stands.

    Pure heritage alone like it or not is a part of the luxury car experience for a lot of buyers and I've always felt that Japanese luxury car buyers/fans knock this because they are buying into the only group of luxury car brands that don't have any heritage. Its the same thing as styling be disregarded on this board because Lexus doesn't accel in this area so it is deemed unimportant. If Lexus had these two things I don't doubt for a minute it would be listed as reasons to buy.

    M
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    A lot of makes jumped on the safety bandwagon after it become popularized by brands like MB and Volvo.

    Yep. It wasn't until the late 80s or early 90s that anyone else in the auto industry cared about safety. GM, Ford and others had been building poorly engineered deathtraps for decades (and sometimes still do) and just didn't care because "safety didn't sell." Ford was still trying to figure out how to keep its cars from exploding upon impact in the late 70s while Mercedes had already been mounting and reinforcing its gas tanks forward of the rear axel for decades. It wasn't until public awareness about auto safety became more mainstream that companies changed their tune. Now everyone wants to be the best and the safest...
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yes this so true. Ford's saving grace is that they have Volvo under their belt and Volvo does the safety engineering for everything new in the entire Ford empire. Really shocking that the Crown Vic, a traditional Ford product still has trouble with rear impacts popping the gas tank, while on the same showroom floor sits the Ford 500, which is an updated Volvo S80 platform which easily obsoletes Ford's other home grown products in safety design. Very interesting indeed.

    The U.S. media particularly only started reporting about safety issues once GM and Ford starting investing in safety, before that they never, ever mentioned safety because they new all those safety-box Volvos and MB in the past made American cars look like the deathtraps they were.

    M
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    The Corolla did indeed do better, but these cars still did worse. It doesn't look like a definitive conclusion here. Despite what anyone says, there is no hard data to confirm what either party is saying.

    The reason that the Elantra, Forenza, Spectra and Beetle received poor ratings despite the airbags is because of their structure. I understand that structure play a crucial role in the performance of a vehicle in a crash. But it seems to me that airbags are just as important. A car with a good structure will still perform poorly in a side impact if it doesn't have side airbags... just the same as a car with side airbags will perform poorly without a good structure. For the sake of simplicity, we'll hypothetically assume that the structure of the LS and the S are the same. With a side airbag, you're going to suffer less trauma to your torso and pelvis than without.

    If that isn't an admission what is? You're comparing someone wearing Reeboks to ballerina shoes...This isn't rocket science...BTW Euro Sport is a no cost option, whereas the S500 is a 30K price difference.

    I still don't think C&R would shame themselves and completely discredit their own review by saying that it was unfair. I do remember the quote you were referring to, but I thought it was little more than a disclaimer... after all, they did award first place to the car with lateral grip worse than a Silverado. Even if the LS did have the sport option it certainly wouldn't be any BMW. Lexus' approach to "sport" isn't exactly impressive either. Someone needs to post the full performance specs from the CR review with the S430 and LS430 w/sport...

    The Euro-Sport package costs $220, not to mention you won't be able to find one anywhere. The difference between the S430 and the S500 is roughly $10k, and some of that translates into more standard options aside from the larger engine. I just hope Mercedes drops the 430 from its lineup and puts the 500 as its base when the new S comes out.

    It wasn't impressive at all. If I remember correctly the CD changer was still in the trunk as well. I didn't see what is so "Athletic" about it. Maybe the S500 is different, I didn't drive it so I don't know.

    Having the CD changer in the trunk is a very minor detail in my opinion. I would rather have the rear side airbags and forgo the convenience of an in dash changer. You probably didn't see what was so "athletic" about the S because you didn't push it. With the ABC sport mode activated and ESP off, you'd be surprised how fun the S can be to drive.

    For $78K you are getting more because you are paying more! Compare a $71K LS430 Ultra to get a better idea of value.

    Well there are a few more optional features on the S class that aren't available with the LS... Granted you do pay more. The $7k difference between the LS430 Ultra and the S430 is justifiable enough for me. I don't mind paying a bit more for the added safety, performance and style of the S regardless of how large or small the difference really is. If reliability and value were what I was after I would get the LS... Different people have different priorities I guess.

    Maybe BMW has the highest residual value overall, but the LS430 has the best in class one of 64%. So not only does it cost less, it holds its' value better too.

    I don't mean to nitpick but according to ALG the Mercedes-Benz CLK has the best resale in the "luxury" class. Granted the LS probably does have the best residual out of the S, 7, A8, etc... Just an FYI.

    I think you will all agree spending $60K on any car is not a fully "Logical" decision. So it is no surprise we see alot of emotional debate on this board.

    Amen.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    We all know Mercedes is the class leader in safety (or is it Volvo?)

    Interesting you should bring that up. Personally, I feel that Mercedes is at least as good, if not better, than Volvo when it comes to safety. I just think that Volvo gets more media attention, and because of this everyone knows about their heritage. On the other hand, Mercedes is lesser known to the average Joe for its leadership in this area. Mercedes tends to remain understated in this regard whereas Volvo shouts "Volvo for Life" in every commercial and across every billboard in America. In the end the proof is in the pudding. Both Mercedes and Volvo have introduced more than their fair share of cutting edge features. Similarly, both Mercedes and Volvo put safety first in all of their designs. I also think BMW deserves credit for being a pioneer in safety. BMW has introduced many invaluable features to the market and builds its cars to the same high standards of safety as MB and Volvo.

    I know Volvo makes a safe car. I bought a 1989 760 Turbo and it was a great safe car for my family when we were first starting out. But I also know that Mercedes and BMW have reputations for safety equal to, and in some ways greater, than Volvo. I've since moved up in the world, which is why I now buy Mercedes and BMW... but I certainly wouldn't mind driving behind the wheel of a Volvo.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You mentioned earlier about the S430 being dropped, well here is what the rumor mill has as the next S-Class engine lineup:

    Model - Hp - Engine Type - Intro Date (Europe)

    S350 - 272hp V6 9/2005
    S450 - 326hp V8 8/2006
    S550 - 388hp V8 9/2005
    S600 - 500hp V12 10/2006
    S63 - 480hp V8 10/2006
    S65 - 630hp V12 10/2006
    S280 - 190hp V6 Diesel 5/2006
    S320 - 228hp V6 Diesel 7/2006
    S400 - 315hp V8 Diesel 12/2006
    S600 - 380hp V12 Diesel (Yikes!) 2007

    I found this at one of the Canadian enthusiast MB websites. That V12 diesel is a direct response to VW's V10 diesel. Of course the only diesel we'll probably see here sometime in 2007 is the S400CDI. It seems that the new S550 is the first model out the gate, and the S450 comes almost a year later, leaving the U.S. market with only one S-Class variant for the first year becaue I don't see them selling a V6 variant, in this case the new S350, here in the U.S. Very interesting.

    M
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    Wow, a 326hp V8 in a base S-Class is certainly impressive. 388hp on the next step up is simply amazing. As long as they keep those V6 engines out of America, which I'm sure they will, I'll be happy.

    I can only hope that the S550 is first to market because that way I won't have any excuse to lease the S450 instead :) I just hope MB doesn't screw up the design on their most iconic car BMW style.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi All,
    Funny enough I went to Volvo's website and they don't have rear side airbags for the S80. Ditto for the 7 Series. It was quite unusual that they didn't. I don't think this is penny pinching. Also Lexus did add knee airbags yet didn't add the rear side impact airbags. Why would they add knee airbags but not side impact ones in the rear? It's certainly a good question for Lexus engineers..That point about Rollover protection is a valid one. I don't know why it isn't on there. How about other non-German marques?

    I did some searching on the internet and I found an interesting article talking about rear safety. It said that head protection is most critical and that manufacturers have differing viewpoints on the side impact airbag in the rear. Some put the airbags in, and others used much softer material near the door impact to cushion the blow. They concluded that head protection was most important. Maybe this is why Volvo doesn't have it? I'm not making excuses for Lexus or Volvo but find that tidbit interesting. I'll post the link when I get back home.

    I find these horsepower wars baffling. I see plenty of S320's in London and I'm sure they perform fine. Is this solely a US thing? My old LS has enough Horsepower for me..I find my new car overkill to some degree. My friend's 300 SE did 100 MPH easily enough..When I drove the S430 I didn't change any settings, so that might explain it. Then again, I normally don't push the car anyway. This is purely a matter of taste.

    I think the S430 is a useful model for Mercedes. At $78K it is in the price point of the LS430 Ultra, and a few other competitors. Even though I was considering the mid range LS430, I was willing to pay the extra money for the S430. Had there been the S500, I wouldn't have done it. $85K for a car just seems too much. As it is I have a hard enough time justifying to my wife the money I spend on these cars.

    SV
  • vchengvcheng Posts: 1,284
    ... that suggest an increased risk of injuries for kids in the back seat in cars equipped with rear side impact air bags. This is more so when the occupant, particularly short in stature, leans against the door, or is in a position other than the perfect upright stance of a test dummy.

    In some BMW models equipped with rear side impact air bags, there is a switch (dealer accesible only) to disable those bags only while leaving the curtain airbags operational.
  • Merc.

    There is no evidence that side airbags make a significent safety difference for rear seat passangers.

    I AGREE WITH YOU, while all the cars you mentioned were not Luxury sedans they are definately Luxury cars..

    No one has denied the Mercedes role in developing Safety innovations...They are used in every car in the world ...But if they can't always be depended upon to work EVERY TIME...In the Mercedes there is a problem that needs to be fixed and it has been more then a decade now that Mercedes has been on this down hill track. IF YOU HAVE ANY SAFETY REPORTS THAT SUBSTANTUATE YOUR CONTENTION THAT MERCEDES IS SAFER THEN LEXUS, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE IT.

    I have not seen a single post (other then yours) that states the CD in the dash is more important then roll over protection. Not ONE..The CD in the dash is nice however.

    Reliability ...relates to almost every issue..Safety, Cost, Convience (it is not convient to have your car in the shop) Resale
    value....ETC.

    This is the United States..We care about our opinions and less so the German opinion....That seems logical to me...Lexus is the top selling Ultra Luxury Car in America...That on the bottom line is the Survay that counts to Americans

    The data provided to support the positions of the Lexus side is significently greater then the other side has been able to produce ...neither side has been able to provide much hard data on safety.

    The Lame website ...was an excellent example...it showed the safety items that a parts house is stocking up on for mercedes...They don't stock up on lexus parts because they don't sell enough of them to make it profitable...RELIABILITY RAISES IT'S UGLY HEAD AGAIN.

    If I remember correctly the most recent recall for 04 Transmissions was not a required recall but was done because that is how Lexus does business.

    Problems are relative...Compared to Mercedes Lexus has no problems to speak of.

    The princess Dye is an excellent example of how good a Mercedes can be when everything works as it should...but not a ringing endorsement of anything...who know if the Princess would have survived the same accident in a Lexus!!

    We both agree on your last comment...you and I are prime examples.
  • Merc:

    Until you can provide some crash data to prove your point you are just arguing to argue.

    P.S. A child is more often harmed by an airbag then protected...That is one of the reasons why childrens car seats are put in the back. It is doubtfull a side airbag would be of any value to a child who is mandated to be in a car seat. A side curtin airbag does protect the child from flying glass if nothing else.

    Since the Corolla is the only actual data presented..It does have much relavence to this discussion...UNLESS YOU CAN PROVIDE OTHER DATA..Can you.
  • tiag:

    It was the seatbelt and shoulder harness and crumple Zones(I assume) that saved the bodyguard...Hmmmmm...Not front or side airbags or side aircurtin but the seatbelt...Interesting.

    Kudo's to Mercedes..
  • tiag:

    And yet the lack of actual safety data would also leave open the OPINION that because the LEXUS is a far more RELIABLE car (acknowledged by all)..It would tend to be safest because the greatest safety device in the world is worthless if it doesn't work when it needs to.
  • Merc:

    It would lead to a safer car..Their research is a tremendous service to car buyers of every car because it is my understanding that they SHARE that data. The mark of a great company.

    BUT...Once again if the action they take involves something mechanical and that device doesn't always work..IS NOT RELIABLE...then the company that makes the device reliable reaps the benefits for their customers.
  • tiag:

    But then Lexus came along in the earily 90s and everything changed....As you said.
  • tiag:

    You are probably right..If Mercedes stopped putting it's ad money into superficial "aren't we PRETTY" commericals and went back to their old commericals stressing safety, I think it would be a better approach for them.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi all,
    That link I was referring to before is as follows:
    http://www.hwysafety.org/srpdfs/sr3808.pdf

    It is an interesting article on the effectivness of airbags. Volvo apparently was the first to bring this to market. I don't think an airbag makes or breaks the safety of a specific car, but of course it can't hurt. There does seem to be data on side airbags in the rear injuring children.

    The SC430 does indeed have rollover protection. I've checked on various other sites and it does. Lexus does have a brief comment on it as well on the SC430 model site. I didn't think Lexus would make that glaring of an error. Virtually every manufacturer follows the same strategy as Lexus in regard to the latest and greatest safety measures. Volvo and Mercedes seem to take lead in this category.

    SV
  • Tiag:

    That is really amazing ...Even more amazing is that in late 06 Lexus will be out with a AWD Hybred LS with as much or more power...For a lot less money...
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    I must say when you have to bring such an unfortunate and sad incident - that is still under investigation - into as mindless discussion on safety as this one has become, it means we really have hit rock bottom.

    I must say the discussion on safety here by a bunch of people who have such limited technical knowledge or expertise on it is as useful as some of us trying to design a manned spacecraft to Mars.

    So let's start a climb back north and put an end to all this silly nonsense once and for all.
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