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High End Luxury Cars

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  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    “My cousin a master tech. who worked at Infiniti and Lexus for 10 years is leaving to go work for BMW… Much more lucrative to go work on the german brands…”
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    What were you trying to post/attach the other day that was driving you crazy?

    You have to read that post better. He means lucrative in a negative way. So I think he struck the guy out.

    Now for fun - it should be interesting to see Clemens and Piazza tonight. I hope we get a conference on the mound.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    Funny, a best buddy of mine is a technician at Lexus, he just bought a Z4, and he makes a ton of loot. He's says that Lexus' are boring. But, I'm not talking about fixing a car. I'm talking about driving a car. Driving, you know, what a car is made for. BMW is coming off of its third consecutive record month of sales in the US. Meanwhile, lexus is selling more SUV's than cars. My main point here, regardless of what opinions are of the 7 series and I-drive, is that toyota makes good vehicles and BMW makes cars that are great to drive.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Ljflx... I was trying to post my favorite Porsche interior. Everybody is always knocking Porsche interiors but when you pay the ransom they actually are quite spectacular IMO... full leather, carbon fiber and aluminum tech touches. I don't like wood on P-cars though.

    "You have to read that post better. He means lucrative in a negative way. So I think he struck the guy out."

    No, I meant Sapparo was batting!!

    I think we’ll see the stoic Piazza as usual.

    Livinbmw... I have a BMW also so I know exactly where you’re coming from. What these Lexus guys may not understand is that some BMW lovers will do anything for the ride, even if it means sacrificing reliability. Doesn’t bother me though when someone says my cars suck because my purchases are well-calculated and my wife and I know exactly what we want. Can’t tell you how much sass I put up with… people in other forums who say Boxsters (another one of my cars) aren’t real Porsches etc. No matter. These forums are funny, fun and often informative. Enjoy your car, but as I said before, this Lexus crowd is tough to debate, but good guys.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    livinbmw,
      Perhaps you've ignored the SUV craze that has all manufacturers running to take advantage of..Even Porsche of all nameplates has a SUV..Lexus would have to be stupid not to capitalize on the market. I still own a 1992 LS400 and have experienced few issues with the car..
      As for calling the LS an overpriced Camry..The LS was designed specifically for the US market and released later in Japan..It took 6 yrs and $1 Billion to develop that car. (Did any other Lexus owner get that email?) That car singlehandedly changed the dynamics of the whole Luxury car industry.
      As for Handling, I'd agree the BMW turns better, but I haven't driven a new 18" LS..But the braking stats and acceleration stats are comparable if not better. I know Lexus cars offer a quieter and more comfortable ride. If Lexus cars are so boring, then why would anyone buy them? You ought to consider this before you make such blanket judgements.

    What exactly is a driving car? IMO an ideal driving car is one that caters to the consumer's need. A Lexus does that nearly perfectly..The majority of buyers aren't going to race them on the autobahn..For practical daily driving, it doesn't get better than Lexus.

    (Designman, it doesn't help the pitcher when they're facing guys like Manny Ramirez.Lol)

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    The real funny part of all this is the labels people put on things. BMW can make a car every bit as quiet and great riding as an LS430 tomorrow if it chose to. It's not its mantra so it's not going to happen. Similarly Lexus can do the same thing the other way around if it wanted to. It will tweak cars like the LS430 to more handling in the future (and maybe even offer a true sport version) but it will always err on the side of quietness and spectacular ride. That's its mantra and that is what it's customers want. Lexus has toyed with handling so far with the IS and people I know who have that car say it outhandles a 3-series. But the 3-series is real adept anyway and a much better looking car. Lexus didn't get it right all the way around and made the interior too cheap. I am curious to see what they do with the next GS. Supposedly your favorite company - Porsche - defined its driving dynamics. If I were Lexus I would have aimed more at the E-class than the 5-series. But BMW is going to be quite vulnerable with that new 5-series design in the next few years and there are several Japanese cars gunning for them now.

    The Boxster is every bit a Porsche to me and a great looking car. If I was 20 years younger I'd buy it.

    SV7887 - perfectly stated.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    You mean this one:

    https://usalexus.programhq.com/lxprn/main.asp

    I think the IS in that same e-mail looks real good.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Actually yes to all for the 7. Having spent oodles of time in both recently, the 7 leads in the subjective areas IMO of looks/interior, and the subjective areas of performance. Harsh ride for some is soft ride to others. The LS430 has been described as floaty, if that is what you like.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The driving dynamics of the 7 and LS are debatable, but if you honestly think iDrive is better for Navigation than the Lexus system, there is something terribly wrong with you. Lexus' system is the best in the industry, with Acura a close second. Lexus has been offering touch screen, DVD based Navigation systems since '98. What did BMW have in 98? Nothing. Livinbmw is obviously so blindly devoted to BMW as the do-no-wrong, greatest fluffy cloud pink bunnies and flowers company in the world that there is no real point in serious debate. I will admit Lexus is not strong in certain areas, but things like quality of materials, and electronics they crush BMW. If you think EVERY car and EVERY thing BMW does is faultless, your off in la la land.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Can a Mercedes "fanatic" say something here? For the record I like Mercedes, Audi and BMW in that order. BMW used to be my #2 car.

    I'm reading this debate and it is even more pointless than the Lexus vs. Mercedes debate. Why you ask? Because BMWs aren't about what Lexus are about and vice versa.

    A BMW person mentions sturdiness, which I define as solidity and the way the car feels driving down a bumpy road and/or lack of body/chassis flex when you pull out of the driveway that has the extreme slant or dip.....the Lexi respond with "a 1996 LS400 was found to be more reliable than a new 7-Series". Do you all not see where these two statments or points aren't even close to being related. A car can be "sturdy" or sturdily built physically, doesn't mean it is reliable. BMW and Lexus two polar opposites. No need for debate.

    Audis have a spectacular "build" but they are the least reliable of the German luxury brands.

    I read above the 7-Series sales are "drying up" in its second year of product. Wrong and mostly hype. The actual numbers:

    June 2004/YTD 2004/June 2003/YTD 2003 - 1628/8776/1577/9935

    While they are down 1159 units YTD 2004 compared to 2003, they did sell more in June of 2004 than they did in June 2003, I'd hardly call this "drying up" and the 7-Series is in its third year of product, not its second.

    Big difference between a "driving car" and a "driver's car", a Lexus can be whatever you want to call it like former, but the latter it isn't.

    M
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    First of all, personal attacks are not necessary.

    I don't give a hoot about the Nav, that has nothing to do with 0-60, braking, or road feel. I did say that with i-drive, perception seems to be reality, but I personally don't have a problem with it.

    I'm not sure what the point of your post is. To me the 7-series is the better vehicle in it's class. I like the looks better, I like the ride better, I like the interior better. Maybe the Ultra has more supple leather, but so what? The 7 sure isn't perfect, but neither is the LS. A number of different factors go into picking a car, but they are different for each of us. But I for one, don't want an Avalon on steriods, but I recognize some do.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    BMW owner says:

    "the seven series is superior inside and out to lexus"

    Lexus owner ask the following in their rebuttal regarding the 7-Series vs the LS430:

    Does it have superior Dependability?

    No the 7-Series doesn't, but I don't think anyone said it did. The comment about "inside and out" as most people would read it relates to design, not the always talked about reliability surveys.

    Superior Ride

    Nope. What about handling though? See how one group prioritizes the opposite quality in their luxury mount? BMW folk regard Lexi as riding like their not even touching the road with a corresponding lack of handling. Apples to Oranges.

    Superior comfort

    Highly debatable, and this depends on what the person looks at when judging comfort. Ride, quietness, seats etc. etc. all come into play here. For some the BMW will be a hard-riding noisy car, and the Lexus like riding in an Amana, Apples to Oranges here.

    Superior Price (in terms of a lower price not higher)
    Superior sound system
    Superior Nav system

    I'm yawning at these three sorry.

    Superior Emissions (in terms of Lower emissions)

    What? This is noticeable to a buyer in what way? Does anyone really care either way? Neither car is a smoger.

    Superior safety systems

    Nope, the Lexus has a Mercedes style Pre-Safe system so Lexus would appear to be more advanced here. Not sure if that makes the LS superior overall in safety though, haven't seen the crash stuff on either. There are a lot of other factors here.

    Is it more quiet.

    Nope the 7 isn't, but it isn't a noise box either like some Lexus fans would lead you to believe it is.

    Does it have a superior dealer and service network

    What the heck does this have to do with someone saying the 7-Series is superior inside and out. This is a classic Lexi response, only the charts, graphs and customer service stuff is truly important.

    My point is that a BMW and Lexus debate at the 7-Series/LS level is pointless because the two cars practically bracket the segment in philosophy.

    M
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    People I talk to, don't fault the 7 series mechanically, they fault the i-drive.

    It's not just that. i-drive has also contributed to making the 7 series interior an ergonomic mess, mainly because the shifter is right next to the window wiper shaft.

    Why is the shifter in such an awkward position? Because they had to make room for the i-drive.

    Aside from i-drive, weird interior ergonomics and the nasty Bangle butt, I prefer the 7-series to the LS.

    IMO the key to Lexus's success is that they do a few boring things really well (reliability, interior luxury and ergonomics) and don't screw anything up badly. The LS430 is the greatest boring car ever made, no doubt.

    Meanwhile, BMW makes what should be a superior car but then cripples it with odd engineering and design decisions.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yes there is a similar situation going on now......but the biggest difference between Rolls and
    Mercedes and Mercedes and Lexus is that Mercedes isn't an outdated, poorly engineered car like
    Rollers were back then. Rollers lacked basic luxury car equipment like stability control, side airbags
    and HID lights...the list goes on. They didn't even get these things until 1998, when Mercedes had
    them at least 8-10 years prior. Mercedes might have a reliability problem, but they haven't
    compromised their other core strengths in the least, but you make a valid obeservation. The
    perception has changed in the minds of people who own Lexuses, but overall in this country and
    worldwide Mercedes is far from finished and they still have the prestige and clout to go with that
    position. Secondly, unlike Rolls-Royces up until 1998 or so, Mercedes still builds at lease some segment
    leading cars and no amount of reliability praise will overcome that when it comes to the SL, CL and
    upper S-Class models. Rolls didn't have anything but their rep, Mercedes still has the tech, engineering, and performance to back up the rep, only their reliability and early build on certain models faultered. Big difference from Rolls whose whole lineup was completely outdated.

    And nobody sighted would even think Lexus has even begun to overtake Mercedes in style, that is completely nuts. There isn't a truly stylish Lexus made, and just about everything Mercedes is dripping style, if nothing else in the typical Lexi's mind. Lexus has the dullest, most boringly styled group of cars in the industry!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    " If Lexus cars are so boring, then why would anyone buy them? "

    You are kidding right? Same reason why people buy every other boring car you see on the road. Reliability, comfort, practicality, room, etc. etc. the list goes on and on........none of this means that the car isn't boring or that it is particularly exciting. SUVs are the most non-fun things you can drive and people love them. Please don't try to imply that great sales mean that Lexi aren't boring.

    "BMW wasn't considered a top tier brand until the 7 Series arrived.

    Huh? You'll have to explain that one. FYI, the "7-Series" has been around since 1977.

    Please tell me when BMW as considered a 2nd tier brand, or not up to Lexus. The 5-Series alone put them, product/price/perception wise, higher than any of the Japanese brands until the LS430 went upmarket for 2001, only to meet the 7-Series which has been there for years.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "My contention is not that Lexus has poor body rigidity or bad brakes. Only that the BMW is better. It's a better driving car. And, it leads the luxury segment in sales."

    What does that have to do with durability, which you say is soo superior in a BMW?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    I think when sv7887 said "BMW wasn't considered a top tier brand until the 7 Series arrived." he meant when the redesigned 7-series came out in the late 80s. The 7-series before that was no competition to the S-class, which always had V8 offerings alongside 6-cylinders. The 7-series until the 90s only had a 6 and the 7-series of the early 80's was not playing in anywhere near the same ballpark as the Benz S-class.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    And about this ridiculous BMW vs. lexus thing. You know(and so does everyone else) that in terms of ride, handling, the S-class, 7-series, A8, Jag XJ8, LS430 are all very similar. I mean they all handle really well for their size and all stop well, and all ride well, and all are extremely quiet. The difference's are small, such as the LS430 handles a bit worse and rides a bit better and the 745i handles a bit better and rides a bit worse.

    As for livinbmw, I believe as someone else pointed out before, he is just simply here to light a fire! Maybe he's unemployed and has nothing better to do.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'll go for that about the 7-Series vs the S-Class of that time period. BMW didn't really step up to the plate until 1988 when they introduced the V12 750iL.

    I have to disagree slightly with the notion that the differences aren't that much between these cars. On driving feel alone the BMW 7-Series is way different from the LS430. You're right, all the cars at this level do stop, go, ride and handle pretty well and some are better than others in certain areas here, but it is the way they go about doing these things combined with those slight differences in ride, handling etc. etc. that make a BMW a BMW and a Lexus a Lexus.

    In my personal experience with both, there are things I did while driving a 745i Sport I wouldn't dare attempt with a 2001-2003 LS430, not that the average buyer drives like I drove those cars on that particular day.

    M
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