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High End Luxury Cars



  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    An individual car or truck doesn't tell the tale in the marketplace, statistics taken from a significant population do, because being a relevant measure of many buyer's experiences they are a good predictor of likely ownership in general.

    Every company builds cars that require service, but the frequency that buyers experience differs substantially from manufacturer to manufacturer and therein lies the tale.

    Results continue to show that Toyota/Lexus and Honda simply build more cars percentage-wise that require less unscheduled service than others. Unfortuately for their buyers, VW builds more cars that have more problems than anyone except Range Rover.

    Based on the statistics for VW, you've been more fortunate than others.
  • Diesel

    I get 500 miles on a tank of gas...and my car doesn't pollute the environment. So not only am I in a safety nut car that doesn't break down but all the people that are around me are a little safer from harmfull fumes.
  • Diesel:

    Interesting insight into how BMW (and perhaps other german companies) treat their customers...

    Luckly (I know hard for a BMW owner to understand)at Lexus There is little that happens to their cars since they are so well engineered and built..

    There was even someone on this thread who said a relative who was a mechanic for Lexus quit to get a job with a German company because it was so boring just doing basic service at Lexus. Sort of like the Maytag repairman.
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    I don't recall a single BMW fan or MB fan on this board, or any of the related boards, denying the superior reliability of Lexus. So why do you keep telling us about it? I'd rather hear about gas filler placement.
  • Dieselbreath:

    There are probably people that have bought vw/audi that have never had a problem...BUT...When I buy a car I don't want to participate in some kind of lottery and have to HOPE I Get a good one.
  • topspin628topspin628 Posts: 373
    Norton AKA Art Carney of Honeymooners fame. What exactly did I win?

    Good to see Hamilton come back from the choke on 18 the first time.
  • warthog:

    OK....Gas filler...Back in the old days 50s and 60s they often did put them in the middle sometimes they would hide them behind the tail light. They don't do that any more and probably for a good reason.
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    Yes, I recall my parents' 1956 Imperial with the taillight filler cover. There was a little round light in the center that served as the button to spring the cover.

    BTW, the button was 100% reliable.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Posts: 243
    I have a '98 Beetle TDI. In case you've been on another planet for a few years, ALL tail-pipe emissions are pollution now. [CO2, warming, tornadoes/hurricanes/pine-beetles....]
    So, the car that pollutes the least is the one that consumes the least fuel (in general terms), thus my car is the least polluting that you could buy in North America in 1998.

    PS: "Öko-Trend", the European equivalent of the Sierra Club, recently gave their award for the most environmentally safe family car. And it went to ... the Toyota Prius? No. It went to the Passat TDI.

    Its too bad so many people in North America are completely clueless on the realities of modern diesel power-plants (based on technology invented by Audi a decade ago and adopted by BMW, MB, ...)
    I'd have expected better from Edmunds readers.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Posts: 243
    Yes, I totally agree with most of that.
    But the fact is Toyota built a reputation in the 1980's based on reliability compared to Detroit products, and everyone agrees that detroit's down-sized cars and first attempts at front-wheel drive were crap!
    But Toyota wasn't better than other Japanese makes.
    Nissan had a better engine (the L-series SOHC) than any gas engine from Toyota. Mazda's RX-7 ran circles around Supras in SCCA.
    When they released the twin-cam Corolla GTS it was with contracted cylinder heads because Toyota was the only major Japanese player that didn't have the technology to build twin-cam heads themselves.
    Almost ALL Japanese cars were better than almost ALL Detroit cars, but Toyota was the only one smart enough to take this imbalance on and claim it as their own.
    And they've flogged this horse for 2 decades now.

    RE VW: The Germans build stronger cars that usually last longer, but these are marginal differences nowadays. ALL cars are good now. VW and MB rate as low on defects now as Toyota did just a few years back.
    Look at the charts from J.D.Power ... "its ALL good!"

    But where the Europeans fall down is the electrical connections (& electronics). And it doesn't matter how great your engine or tranny is if the signals controlling it aren't correct.

    This is the one area where they trail ALL the Japanese brands, (plus gadgets) and I can't figure out why they still haven't corrected this.
    (the wiring, not the gadgets)

    This one little area puts them at a disadvantage to most of makers and they need to wake up and address it while they still have customers!
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Posts: 243
    so, now I can be hated by both the Japanese and German factions! :)
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
      Diesel emissions are still a concern. The new MB E320 Diesel will not be sold in Massachusetts, b/c it doesn't meet their air quality standards.
    Toyota also builds a pretty clean diesel, but they only sell it in Europe. I saw it demonstrated in England. Someone held a sheet of paper to the tailpipe and you couldn't see any dirt. Diesel sure has come a long way. BTW the LS430 is one of the few high end cars out there that is Ultra Low Emission (ULEV) and doesn't get hit by the gas guzzler tax.

       Germans build stronger cars that last longer? Where are the facts to back this up? The latest JDP survey came out and MB and VW were at the bottom. I'd say 1.6 problems per Lexus vs over 3 for MB/VW is pretty substantial. There are legions of LS400 long term owners who would dispute this very notion.

    I, however might agree with you that this trend may be changing. I'm not terribly enamored with my LS430 and question whether it will be as trouble free (long term) as its' predecessors. The car has too many gadgetry that will likely fail over a 10 yr period.
       It's no mystery why Japanese excel in the electronics field. Commercially they dominate it..Most of the cutting edge tech is usually released in Japan first. While not the most innovative, the Japanese are experts at taking another's innovation and making it much better. (Just look at what Sony did to the US Television makers)
       As for Safety, I think Mercedes is the undisputed leader. I don't see other Euro nameplates that innovate as much as MB does in this segement. Lexus has a tendency to borrow whatever MB feature catches on in the marketplace. It's bad for prestige but sound Business strategy.

  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Posts: 243
    For those who think this is the bible of car quality, the European car avg. defect rate is lower in 2004 than the Japanese avg. was in 2003.
    They are that close!
    These cars are all good (except for VW's ignition coils ... I wonder what their rating would be without that disaster?)

    And JDP picked a Dodge Stratus over the Toyota Celica???

    Just goes to prove that Reliability statistics do not beget quality ratings! (or even long-term reliability ratings)
    (but quality is also subjective, so much harder to measure)
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129

    Topspin628... Ljflx was quick on the draw... better luck next time!

  • Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Diesel cars....

    If they are any good...How come so few people buy them?....At least in the most important Auto market on earth. THERE MUST BE A REASON
  • The o4 stats are worthless for anything other then the delivery flaws.

    Show any 3-5 yr. stats on reliability...If you dare.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    That's great. By the way the episode I was referring to was the one where he thinks he's going to Hollywood off of a local play performance - remember the string of "polarponies". It's Alice that they want of course. If you're really into the Honeymooners pick up the DVD of the 39 GREAT shows. They have some brief scenes that were edited out of the TV show reruns - for whatever reasons - and when you see the scenes put back in some of the shows come together better.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    For the VDS - which measures problems reported over three years.

    Here's the link to the 2003 numbers at jdp's site:

    While 2004 were at:

    I missed any references to JDP's ratings for European vs Japanese in 2003 and 2004, even though in 2003, they pointed out the DOMESTIC makers had 49 FEWER reported problems per vehicle than of the Europeans.

    Can you share a link or two to the info about Europeans being in 2004 where the Japanese were in 2003?

  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Posts: 243
    RE: "Diesel cars....If they are any good...How come so few people buy them?."

    This is the world's easiest question to answer: BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT FOR SALE HERE!
    Actually, the new ones are all around you, but you think they're gas-engined because there is no smoke or rattle.

    VW has been the only one selling in the US and you don't hear about them because they sell every diesel car they make and don't need to advertise them. No discounts, no 0% interest, no rebates!
    But they were only in the smaller cars ... no Passat TDIs till recently.
    Show me another car where demand outstrips supply that badly!

    But take a look at 3/4 ton pickups. Diesel is taking over there.
    Jeep is releasing the Liberty diesel.
    Benz has the E320CDI ... 0.1 second slower 0-60 but much less fuel than the gas E320, and resale is much higher.

    The best LUX SUV is the VW Touareg with 5.0 liter V-10 TDI diesel.
    50% More torque than Dodge's "Hemi"
    Its 1200 pounds heavier than a Hemi Durango and 1 second faster on 0-60MPH! (so much for that urban myth about diesels being slow)
    It will outrun ALL SUVs except the Porsche TURBO (yes, that includes the V8 BMW X5 and the Porsche Cayenne S)

    Personally I think a high-performance SUV is the stupidest form of transportation on the planet.
    But on the sensible end, Audi said they will be selling diesels in Canada this fall. Probably just the A-4. I don't know about US.

    The Audi A8 in Europe comes with a 4.0 liter V-8 TDI engine that makes it one of the fastest luxury cars on the road, but still has decent mileage (for a car thats bigger and 6" wider than a Benz S-class).

    US emissions rules are designed for gas engines. In areas where they apply the same rules to diesels you will not be able to legally buy a brand new diesel (but buyers have worked around this ... read the Passat TDI forum)
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Posts: 243
    Look at the chart in the 2004 Initial Quality Study.

    here it is:

    its the first chart.

    BTW: In England, their customer satisfaction survey puts Lexus at #1 (no surprise) and SKODA at #2 (!!??? Aren't they the VW division in the Czech Republic?)
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