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High End Luxury Cars



  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Interesting. You say that Mercedes will have to answer to the LS430 or loose it's leadership. You must have forgotten the Mercedes already has 2 cars that head and shoulders above the LS430. They are called the S55 and S600. The LS430 isn't close. I agree Lexus did force all luxury car makers to re-examine the way the price and sell cars. But design wise Lexus didn't do squat. No amount of copying and price cuts from Toyota's thought up brand could ever undue the accoplishments of Mercedes-Benz. I seriously doubt there will ever be a LS600, an LS500 I can see them doing. And it still won't be up to the level of the S600 or the current 750iL, not to mention the next generation 7-Series. Mercedes-Benz did not aquire Chrysler, so Chrylser's current position has very little to do with Mercedes' cars. The parent company bought Chrysler, not Mercedes-Benz itself. You're right it's all business, but don't please don't act like Lexus changed any and everything since it's introduction, a Mercedes was a great cars, years, and years before Lexus was ever thought up. Lexus fans always try to make it seem like Mercedes built junk until Lexus came along. Not so.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The LS430 is a good car, it has almost all the S-Class features for less money, but the styling and the driving is still not Mercedes-Benz. I have to give it to them though, Acura and Infiniti look pitiful next to their Japanese competitor.

  • 4426444264 Posts: 67
    Does Lexus have anything in the same league as a M5 or E55, a high end performance sports sedan? I think not.

    I would pick an Audi, BMW, MB over a Lexus anyday for their superior driving dynamics.

    Even if I were driven by someone sitting at the back, I rather pick a long wheel base limo over a Lexus, the latter's suspension is so soft it makes me car sick. With a limo, at least I get more room.

    Don't believe everything you hear - Lexus are not that reliable, their leather seats wear off prematurely for example.

    The LS' drive is so isloated it's dangerous giving the driver zero feedback. Sure the car is quiet but that's about the only virtue really.

    I like the GS430's drive but it's lack of room is pathetic, I think a 3 series has more room than the GS.
  • bwhbwh Posts: 76
    To say that Lexus forced MB to change the S class is a bit far fetched. So the original LS400 introduced in '90 caused MB to alter the W140 S class?? That is simply incorrect. The W140 was basically written in stone design wise when the LS was introduced. The S offered 4,5,and 6 liter engines. I did not see big price drops during the cars '92-'99 production. The S500 stayed near $100k and the S600 at $140k, all along offering more features than Lexus imagined. I agree on the LS500,LS600 it will never happen. Even if it does I don't think they will offer a legitimate performance alternative to either the top BMW or MB. I would see a move like that as more catch-up by Lexus. I do think they are fine machines, I do think they are very well put together. I also know that MB uses superior materials in their cars. The paint and leather in my MB far exceeds that of even my wifes 750. I would take either in the long run over the Lexus. My opinion is that the current S-class leads the pack, the new 7 series will be a close second (the 750 is awesome but an S600..ooohh baby!) and Lexus will continue to play catch-up. Since when have they been the innovators in this class. The Japanese are suberb copy-cats, and that to me is the sincerest form of flattery towards BMW and MB.
  • I bought a 2001 S500 not because of heritage, snob appeal, or because it was first with active cruise control. I didn't avoid the Lexus because of its "lack" of prestige, nor did I buy it because it was a good value (even if I think it's ugly).......
    I bought the Mercedes because I LIKE it better. It's impossible to exactly define if it's the ride, handling, styling, engineering features,,etc. that makes a difference. It's really a combination of many factors (although riding in an ugly luxury car might be embarassing).
    Only kidding.
  • The LS 430 one of the world's finest cars is the industry benchmark for fit and finish, realibility and quality standards and best of all it comes from those quality gurus and fanatics the Japanese. Design is always subjective, I think the second generation LS 400 is more classic which will age better than the current one.

    As for some of the snobs on this site who say that Lexus is lagging that's pure frustration and envy since they know Lexus makes a fine product but it doesn't come from Germany.

    Don't ever second guess what Toyota will or won't do. They have Bill Gates deep pockets and talented engineers and can easily elevate the LS model to an even more lofty status than the current one. I foresee an LS500 model in the next few years just give it time. Perfection doesn't come over night. Performance additions as in 400+ hp to the GS series are in the works as we speak so don't think Lexus is sitting idle and watching its competitors cruise by.

    I get a kick out of listening to these Euro lovers defend their cars, but when I ask why Mercedes has all these realibility and quality problems lately they can't answer me or they say "yeah but it has heritage and a soul". When Joe Blow's Benz is in the shop for the 15th time in a year I'm pretty sure he's thinking yeah but it's ok it's got a soul. Bringing up Bill Gates, yes he loves his LS 400 and SC400 coupe has stated they are among his favorite cars. Not bad advertising I"ll say.
  • say "Amen"...!!
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    LJFLX- You may forget that Cadillac was once the "Standard of the World". The words "the cadillac of..." are still used everyday to describe the best. So don't give me this bull that Lexus wasn't thinking about the American cars. The Deville DTS is a better car in my opinon that the LS430.

    WBWYNN- You must own cars for their curb appeal. If you are a person who actually cares about driving dynamics, you would have never purchased an LS430 because it simply cannot compete with the euros. You say that euro heritage is silly- the only reason the euros come out on top is because of their heritage- they have worked for years on perfecting their cars. Lexus came along, took the best of what MB had, and then tried to copy it. Congrats on buying your Lexus, but you could've got the same performance in a DTS for less money!

    PRATTSTER- I think you must be mistaken, because Mercedes have the reputation of being rock solid, which will last for years. I don't know a single person who owns an MB who has had to take their car in for signifigant service. And no, they are not C-Class owners, but E55 and S-Class owners. So don't critisize MB for being engineered poorly, when Lexus is just copying them. They must be doing something right!

    I have not heard any hard evidence that Lexus is at or above MB and BMW's level. Only a lot of mud slinging towards me, and my correct points.


    P.S. I look forward to the attacks I get this time!
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Can you post a link to the article you are quoting and then delete your post?

    Either way, your post has to go - you can't quote copyrighted sources directly but you can link to them.


    Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
  • wbwynnwbwynn Posts: 246
    A low blow've got to be you actually drive any of these vehicles...from whence does this kind of expertise come?
  • flint350flint350 Posts: 250
    Good Lord, what logic and plain misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation of fact!! That Cadillac "was once" the "standard" has nothing to do with Lexus' obvious competitor the Benz S. No knowledgable objective car mag/enthusiast/writer I have seen or read has ever said the DeVille is of such high quality. It is always praised as being better than Cadillac has been recently. Even Motor Trend (no fans of Lexus there) said in their comparo that the DTS simply didn't belong in the same contest with the Lexus/Benz/BMW.

    Saying Lexus simply can't compete with the Euros is futher evidence of very limited personal opinion being stated as fact. The vast majority of the automotive press disagree. Whether one or the other is slightly better, etc. is open to debate, but to say it "simply can't compete" borders on lunacy. Good grief, the very article quoted before this post clearly says, not only can the Lexus compete, but in their INFORMED and EXPERIENCED opinion, it is often equal or BETTER.

    You go on to say a DTS is the same for less money and therefore a better choice!!! This is downright foolishness - yet you refute your own logic by refusing to admit that the Lexus (who all agree is AT LEAST a real competitor of the Benz) is less expensive than the Benz with the same features,etc - making it a better value!

    As for MB's reputation for "rock solid" and never in for signif. service!!! Do you actually read what people (actual owners-not phony zealots) on this and the S Class board write about their various S Class experiences? Are they just phony liars trying to destroy the reputation of the S??
    Get real. You are entitled to your opinion, whether it is fact or fantasy based. But at least try to stick reasonably close to facts when you level criticism. The S Class is a very good car. The Lexus is a very good car. The BMW is a very good car. We all want to satisfy our personal needs in our choices. In choosing my LS430, I partly decided on reliability, quiet, interior and value. I would have spent the extra money on the S if it bought me something more - in my opinion, it didn't. I would have gotten less of what I wanted and paid $20K for the privilege.
  • bwhbwh Posts: 76
    That was a sensible post. I agree on the DTS, wrong league. You chose the LS430 for the reasons important to YOU. I agree, I think they are ALL superb machines. My priorities are different. The features that are important to me relate to the road feel and handling of the car. The BMW is where smart money goes for a sporty attitude and a few compromises to achieve it. I still prefer the S class to the Lexus, I think its ride and handling combo is a good compromise between the isolation of the Lexus and the sporting flavor of the BMW. For MY tatse the Lexus looks and drives too bland for me. The ride and the luxo features were simply not important. I don't even own the navigation CD for my home area, never used the nav system at all. Just an example of priorities when buying cars in the same class.
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    Did I ever say that the DTS is categorized in the same field as the rest? No, so don't you dare go off on a tantrum. I said that I think the DTS has about as much driving excitement as the Lexus. And I would rather spend my money on that if I was going to buy a luxo-cruiser, which is simply what the LS is.

    On the fact that the automotive world says that the Lexus is at or beyond the rest, that is pure crap. Edmunds own review said that for a Lexus, it is exremely sporty, but it still cannot compare with the Mercedes and BMW for driving excitement. And that is my focus- the Lexus is not a drivers car like the others. I ask you to find me a piece of writing by someone who has half a brain that says the Lexus will be more fun to drive than a BMW. Ha!

    I would rather spend the extra $10,000 to get some excitement out of my vehicle. In my eyes, it is not a better value because it puts the driver in complete isolation from the world. Yes, it is extremely quiet, like a vault, but I would like to hear what BMW has done with my V12 under hard acceleration.

    I do not dispute that the Lexus has all the bells and whistles that the rest have- hell that's what the Japanese are known for. I am simply stating that in the styling and engineering, they have copied the rest yet again, mostly Mercedes.

    As for your comment about being informed- I am a true car enthusiast who will read respectable publications such as R&T, Automobile, CAR and a battery of others. You americans think that Motor Trend and Car and Driver count for a lot. The rest of the world thinks that most of the american publications are so yankee biased, and only care about SUV's and big american V8's.

    Whatever choice someone wants to make, is their own business. This message board is for discussion, and that is purely what I am doing. I want to seek the opinions of others, and maybe dispute them. I am not mounting personal attacks on anyone, as you are FLINT350.

    Good luck with your LS430, maybe someday it will be called the "greatest car in it's class in 2001", but I doubt that!!!

  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    Webmaster- I would love to have a live chat about this topic. I see that the Mercedes S-Class board has a weekly chat, so I would like one here. If there already is one, then someone please tell me. I would like to meet, figuratively speaking, the people I spar with on a regular bases. Thanks

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    Arcoates - you've lost it - give it a break. You're in way over your head here. Chill out.

    Merc1 - Of course Daimler took over Chrysler. But in acquisitions the actual owner is set up for legal and tax purposes. Do you think they are going to look for synergies and operationally consolidate Chrysler anywhere but in the auto group? Heavy equipment division - maybe? - comeon now. In my company some of the CEO's would fall off their chairs if they knew who legally owned their companies or divisions.

    As for the next Lexus LS modification you can bet your house on a LS500. In an article somewhere - not Edmunds - it mentioned that Lexus was toying with a V-12 for this model year but dropped it at the eleventh hour - so that's inevitabe too and it may come sooner than anyone thinks. They'll never make the equivalent of an S-55 or an AMG but not for the reasons you'd like to think. No one makes meaningful money on limited production/special edition/custom products in any business. They are usually loss leaders and CFO's cut them out the moment business goes south.

    One last thing - Toyota's market cap is $128BLN vs. $51bln for Daimler. It also has $12bln. more cash and $20bln less debt. I wouldn't doubt its wherewithall and I'm sure MB is smarter than you about them. They are the 800lb gorilla here.
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    I resent that comment- why have I lost it, because I choose to voice my opinion? Yes, I agree that I may be a little forceful sometimes, and people may take offence, but that's part of my intention.

    I am very passionate about cars, and enjoy a heated discussion. I am pro-euro- no doubt about it. But I have not "lost it". I haven't called anyone stupid for buying something Japanese, or that they are complete hunks of crap. I have said everything but!

    And you are quite mistaken about being "in way over my head". There is a collection of people, includig merc1 by the sounds of it that agree that the german cars are best in class. I think that most of the professional automotive community would agree- that is what I have based my opinions on- by reading about the different choices and making the tough decision of what is best!

    I am sorry if I have offended anyone. It is not my intention. In my effort to create heated discussion, it may have come out that I want to condemn those who favour the japanese cars. I hope to converse about these issues in the future with all of you- you are knowledgable and good to talk, and sometimes fight with.

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    That's a person who writes and thinks sensibly and that's what car selection at this level is all about. Each car serves a different niche and each one serves that niche better than the other. Your comments are all over the map. Go back and read them objectively and you'll see what I and I'm sure others here see. Merc1 loves his S-class cars too but his/her comments are quite sensible. He/She was trying to make you think more clearly with a comment earlier today.

    Relax and enjoy valentine's day. Life is too short to argue. Just get your point across and move on. Goodnight.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I agree that Lexus will do a LS500. I would too if I were them. Agreed. I agree with you on the DCX merger, but it will never work as far as Mercedes cars are concerned. They say the the 2 will never share platforms. I hope they don't. Ever. It's not about ownership of the company, I'm just saying the because Chrysler can't move enough 300M's doesn't mean Mercedes is going to be affected right away. Let me wrap the Lexus vs. Mercedes and other Euros like this. Lexus will always be the affordable car, the bargain. Mercedes and BMW will almost never be able to compete price for price with the Japanese. However for the true enthusiast BMW and Mercedes are the "better" cars. Performance, styling and design all go to the Germans. The more practical car is going to always be Japanese, but for anything over 30K I want some excitement and stimulation that only a European car can provide, and for me personally I can put up with a little less reliability in turn for more fun. It's cars like the S55 that make the case for the Euro brands. Nothing from Japan or America can substitue/compare. And Mercedes won't build a car that they are going to loose money on. They'll hike the price and sell less, they done it before, but never loose money on their core models (C,E,S, SL, CL,M). The A-Class might be a loosing sell but the cars we get here turn a profit, you can believe that.

    It's not like the S-Class is junk or even remotely close to it. Believe it or not but their are S-Class owners that haven't had any problems, like there are probably some LS430 owners that didn't get a flawless car either. I believe Automobile did a long-term test of the S500 and their car didn't have a single malfunction. For me and quite a few others the Lexus dealership experience, customer service and coffin-like silence of their cars isn't enough to warrant driving such a blah, ho-hum car.

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    Good way to end it. But tell me something. Why is MB making the C Class look so much, at least frontally where it is an exact match, like the S-Class? Big tactical mistake in my opinion. For its price the S has to be unique. If I just shelled out $80k plus for an S-500 (or $110k plus for a 600) I don't want to see a $32k or so C in my rearview mirror right after I drive out of the showroom or on the dealers lot for that matter. This is one of the reasons why I walked away from the S. The other is that I felt exactly the same way as Flint 350 wrote in his post. As well the real money for these cars is in the 45+ age bracket. With the bull market dying the younger crowd, who the S is now aimed at, may not have the financial ability to buy the S. The "easy money" days unfortunately are over. This is another reason why Lexus may make a big move at MB soon.

    Personally I think the most beautiful MB is the E-Class. And maybe thats why I bought the LS430. The E is now MB's most Lexus like look. But it's far too small - the same size as a Camry at 189 inches long. If I'm MB I lenghthen that to 197 inches and make it my Lexus fighter. But the E is their bread and butter car so they may not have the gumption for that. I hope they don't change that to look like the S. Betting the ranch on one design would be very foolish.

    But never say never about Toyota. I'm sure in the 1980's people would have said Toyota could never have built a Lexus. In 1990 they were probably saying Lexus would never survive. Could'nt have been more wrong. Ten years from now these two companies will still be duking it out but there is now a big difference than ten years ago. MB does not have much,if any, margin for error.

    With that I'm through with this. Have a great day.
  • Could one of you Jag owners tell me what you think to many miles on a 98 XJ8 would be? 50K or 60K ?
    I also would like to know : when you buy the extended warranty does this add on to the cars mileage? Or is this like the Fords, when the warranty is just extended to that mileage on the warranty. For instance: If I buy a Jag with 40K mileage and purchase a 100K warranty does that mean I have a 140K warranty? or just an extra 60K
    extention? Thanks for all your help. By the way, I have had a Benz, and 3 Lexi. If you get a good lexus dealer, its very hard to find better service.
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