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High End Luxury Cars

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  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    As to be expected, the German brands are behind the class leader - Lexus - once again. You know this is getting boring the way Lexus keeps just beating up on the German brands year-over-year-over-year.... C'mon, MB and BMW need to do something about it. Maybe they are too busy praising themselves on their beautiful designs to care about quality and reliability, eh !

    Not a single German brand won a category in IQS. It was a GM-Toyota/Lexus sweep, sprinkled with a couple snippets of Ford trucks. Unbelievable, that GM is more reliable and has higher quality than an MB ! I never thought I'd see this so soon....

    If I were MB or BMW, I'd pay kadzillion amount of Euros to lure the head of production at the Tahara Plant. I am sure there is a price for everyone !!! That'd give them a fighting chance to beat Toyota/Lexus in quality....
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Maybe that Toyota/GM alliance started long before it was announced and in more ways than fuel cells. If you hook up with Toyota your reliability seems to improve. It already happened woth Porsche of all people. But TM did recall about 700K trucks today, I believe.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Unbelievable, that GM is more reliable and has higher quality than an MB ! I never thought I'd see this so soon....

    Really? The only GM brand I see anywhere close to Mercedes-Benz is Cadillac and they tied! Yeah GM outranked DCX as a whole, but no GM brand outscored Mercedes idividually. Easy to hype things up minus the facts. I think a lot of people would be glad to drive a Mercedes that beats Toyota in initial quality vs driving the average crappy GM car. I know I would. Buick scored higher than MB? Probably the most oudated group of wannabe luxury, but blue-hair set cars on the road. I'll take the MB, BMW or Audi for about a million reasons.

    If I were MB or BMW, I'd pay kadzillion amount of Euros to lure the head of production at the Tahara Plant. I am sure there is a price for everyone !!! That'd give them a fighting chance to beat Toyota/Lexus in quality....

    Why would they want to do that? They'd have to seriously ugly up the design and dumb down the dynamics all in order to get the approval of the survey-is-the-bible crowd. No thanks.

    Gee lookit terrible Audi ranked higher than Infiniti and way higher than Acura. Where is the quality that Acura is known for?

    There seems to be a singular definition of quality here. If anyone really thinks a GM car is of totally higher "quality" than a MB or BMW there is serious lack of knowledge at play. A GM car is able to ace a reliablity survey for 90 days, yet they're built like crap and outdated in many areas. Yet they're of higher quality than a MB. Yeah ok, only if you don't understand what total quality is.

    Consumer Reports puts the Lincoln Navigator in the most unreliable vehicle in America, yet JDP says its in the top 3? Ok.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    If you hook up with Toyota your reliability seems to improve. It already happened woth Porsche of all people.

    Really? That must be why Porsche is 5th from the bottom and has been dropping every year recently.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    My wife and I figured we go see Revenge of the Sith at a matinee Thurs or Friday when the kids are in school. So I go check times and I see that 7 theartres in one mall by me and 3 in another are all showing the movie within a minute of each other between midnight and 12:15, right now. I wonder if my chances of getting tix are good for a matinee seat before the weekend crush? I figure the movie will do $100mil or better for the weekend. I'm also trying to figure out how so many people in family residential areas, on a worknight are going to see the movie right now. In big cities like NY, Chicago and LA it's easy to understand but residential suburbs is another thing.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    > Really? The only GM brand I see anywhere close to Mercedes-Benz is Cadillac > and they tied! Yeah GM outranked DCX as a whole, but no GM brand outscored > Mercedes idividually.

    Really?? What do you think is Buick? A BMW?

    > Easy to hype things up minus the facts.

    Speak for yourself.

    > I think a lot of people would be glad to drive a Mercedes that beats Toyota in
    > initial quality vs driving the average crappy GM car. I know I would.

    Except there is only a single MB model making into the top three models of any of the 18 vehicle categories: the SL in "Premium Luxury Cars," and it was #3 under Lexus occupying both #1 and #2 (SC430 and LS430).

    > Buick scored higher than MB? Probably the most oudated group of wannabe
    > luxury, but blue-hair set cars on the road. I'll take the MB, BMW or Audi for
    > about a million reasons.

    Sure, excuses. While we are on the subject of prejudice, why don't we just lable MB, BMW and Audi as the most outdated group of wannabe luxury pseudo-Aryan set cars on the road. I will take any American or Japanese luxury car for about a million reasons.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I think you can forget that. Just in passing the AMC30 tonight the entire parking lot was full. We're talking about a 30 screen movie theater here. I bet that have the Revenge of the Sith playing on at least 10-12 screens. This will probably be like the Titantic. It will be weeks before the movie isn't sold out. I think a lot of people will all be thinking the same thing about trying to go during what are supposed to be non-peak hours.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You're right a Buick is a GM brand, the post timed out before I could revise it. Problem is Buicks are totally outdated with pushrod engines and handling of a milk float. A Buick isn't a 1/5 the car a Mercedes is. Who said anything about prejudice? Someone really needs a timeout.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    GM quality is certainly improving, much to German car fans' chagrin. Toyota/Lexus kicks butt as well, that is a certainty. Audi, MB still are barely above industry average, and BMW seems to be threading water, quality-wise, which may be a good thing, at least they aren't going backwards like MB....

    The IQS scores are based on owner reports, see ? And MB owners have graded their cars poorly built compared to the Buick. How is that difficult to understand ? So knocking GM is the wrong thing; complain to owners of MB and tell them to stop giving such poor grades to their cars and trucks. That'll help MBs ranking pretty well too.... I rue the day MB ever makes it to a #1 spot on the JDP IQS ranking, bcos Merc1 will probably be one of the first to throw it in our faces... But seeing how MB execs are handling their quality and reliability issues, I doubt that day will come anytime soon....
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    This is exactly my point about unsubstanciated hype:

    Audi, MB still are barely above industry average, and BMW seems to be threading water, quality-wise, which may be a good thing, at least they aren't going backwards like MB....

    Audi has a score of 106 and Mercedes 104, yet this is seen as being barely above the average of 118. Mercedes is going "backwards "yet they went from 10th place in 2004 to being in a tie for 5th place, this year. Yet this seen as going "backwards". Must be the new math.

    Does this line of reasoning make a Toyota a poor product since they scored below Mercedes as a brand this year?

    Earth to OAC - Read the chart before posting! GM beat DCX as a whole, while Buick's outdated and primitive cars beat Mercedes by 4 points. Whooptie do. Can't wait to drive a Buick. How exciting.

    Autoweek side by side view 2005 vs 2004

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    What chart ? The one you don't believe in ??? So MB is doing better you say ? Good. While Lexus is 81/100 cars, MB is 104/100 cars, and OMG, Toyota is earth-shattering, God-awful 105/100 cars !!!! What a difference b/w the high-end MB and the mass-market low-end Toyota as the benchmark. Try Lexus on for size, afterall that's the real competition.

    So while I read the chart and subscribe to its results, you use the chart only if it meets your line of reasoning. If you don't subscribe to JDP and its IQS ranking, why bother to even talk about it, eh ? So you do care about this stuff afterall.... Wake me up when MBs actually have less problems per 100 cars than a Lexus does, then we'll talk.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    No, my response was to your post trying to say that Mercedes was going backwards in quality, which they aren't. In fact it is just the opposite, they have shown improvement vs last year. Your first post was incorrect.

    Your logic by putting MB down for their score would also put Toyota down because they scored less. Apparently there is a double standard in play here. Mercedes score is nothing while Toyota's is less, but thats ok because they are a mass market producer.

    I don't subscribe to anything from JDP or CR, nor did I dispute what they found.

    My point here is that if you're going to use the chart in your post you could at least get the data right.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    > Problem is Buicks are totally outdated with pushrod engines and handling of a
    > milk float.

    What's wrong with pushrod engines if they work well for the road conditions that they are designed? Grea torque off the line and good highway mileage. There isn't a single MB non-turbo V8 on the market today that can produce 400+ hp like the Corvette pushrod V8 can do, not to mention in as small a package.

    Ever considered perhaps a soft ride is what some people want? E class has a softer ride than C, S-class is even softer, S-class limos are softer yet.

    > A Buick isn't a 1/5 the car a Mercedes is.

    It can equally be argued a MB isn't 1/5 the car a Buick is . . . by saying-so. In fact, while we are on the subject of IQS, assertion of Buick superiority is slightly more valid, by 105-to-104, to be exact. On long term reliability, Buick has much less problem than MB.

    > Who said anything about prejudice? Someone really needs a timeout.

    I see, speaking of yourself again. If you find the exactly same verbiage and sentence strcuture turned against you rather upsetting, then step back and take a deep breath before dishing out.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Got tix on Fandango for midday Friday. If you want to fly to NJ, I'll treat you. Heck, you can drive the GX470 or LS430 too - Your choice.
  • I am surprised that Lexus is THAT MUCH BETTER then Mercedes..

    I have said before as I see the newer Mercedes on the road these days it is looking different to me, where once I really admired the styling it is wearing thin with me...It looks dated.

    The nice thing about the old LS 400 and even the LS430 is their timeless design...especially with LS 400. The new GS is just a beautiful car in my book.

    Mercedes/Chysler needs to pull some rabbits out of the hat... soon.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Your logic by putting MB down for their score would also put Toyota down because they scored less....

    No one is putting MB down, MB is putting MB down with its lack-luster quality performance against the likes of GM. MB should be challenging the likes of Lexus, not trying to beat GM's quality.... I didn't make the IQS results up, JDP did, based on OWNERS responses. If anything, you should direct your voice to MB execs to strive to do better to help the brand climb back to its lofty heights. Competing with the likes of GM for higher quality is certainly not the way to go. That is what I meant by (a) try to hire the Production head at Toyota's Tanaka plant (which you misinterpreted to styling cues, instead of production....), and (b) try to take Lexus on the latter's area of strength.

    Unlike you, I am offering ideas of how MB can turn things around, you OTOH, are content to bash JDP and anyone who subscribes to their work as hog wash... Its your choice, don't shoot the messenger (me), address the message (JDP).
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I think the Germans have made good progress on the IQS, BMW in particular.

    Personally I find the vehicle dependability studies to be more important, though. These are based on 3-year results rather than 90 days. We'll see how the Germans are doing 3 years from now...possibly the improvement will be enough to put me in a BMW or even MB.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "Mercedes/Chysler needs to pull some rabbits out of the hat... soon. "

    ON the style front, I think Chrysler is doing a excellent job and it's showing in higher sales figures and lower incentives. The 300C looks good, the Magnum looks really good, and the Charger is gorgeous!
  • Max..I have to agree...A good step foreward for Mercedes/Chysler
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    > ON the style front, I think Chrysler is doing a excellent job and it's showing in
    > higher sales figures and lower incentives. The 300C looks good, the Magnum
    > looks really good, and the Charger is gorgeous!

    Chrysler has always been good at exterior design: Prawler, etc., dating back more than a decade. Before that, Chrysler was even a bona fide luxury brand. The real question is what's the 300C and Charger's staying power. Will they follow in the steps of the VW New Beatle, Ford Thunderbird and Chrysler's own PTCruiser, hot for a while then dive-bombing sales as the fad fades away and people come to the realization that the stylistic flares have significant trade-offs in the user-friendliness department (although I'm not sure that explains why PTCruiser stopped flying off the lot). I for one would not feel safe driving with those port-hole windows on the 300C.
  • stroudmanstroudman Posts: 192
    "I saw stroudman had to take a shot at us though-unfortunately. I thought he was better than that."

    Confirms my suspicions that this is a group effort. I felt like every post was a "shot." Not that I take any of it personally, but rather than discuss luxury cars in general, I became frustrated with the topic always being so polarized - lexus, lexus, lexus, versus MB, MB, MB. If that's not what you want to talk about, then read along, but don't bother posting, seems to be the format. The fact that another thread was started to discuss "European" luxury cars was just another way of saying 'can we please quit warring over the two most disputed luxury brands, and just talk about the topic in general.' I mean, if you are so sold on Japanese luxury cars, for example, why is acura or infiniti rarely if ever mentioned? If you're trying to convince me that lexus is a reliable, sensible brand that makes the most logical sense...you're preaching to the choir. This is such a pragmatic view, it's just like arguing politics. Just because YOU make your decision to buy a car on those criteria, and sell it as hard as you like, you are not a spokesperson for the luxury sect any more than I am as an MB salesman! Everyone spends their money on what they like, and thank God we don't all like the same things or we'd really be a bunch of bores. Again, I posted out of frustration, and felt like I had to speak my mind. And HOST, I know you'll probably strike this post, and if you do, I'll understand, but I meant no offense to any of my "rivals," and I don't think I was out of line. I enjoy participating in this forum, and learning from all who post...you are all probably older and wiser than I, and what is posted here will either confirm what I already know, or teach me something new, so either way, I can't loose.
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    Did you all see these pics of the '07 MB S with the wraps off? I am so sorry to see those fender flares appear to be actually part of the final design. And the rear-- did Bangle take over design for all German manufacturers? Why do I feel as if they took the current car, which is poetry in motion, and overlaid the worst features of a CTS on it?

    I was really hoping that MB would have solved their reliability issues by the time my current '05 LS will be due for replacement, and I could go back to buying an MB. But now I am going to have to look at other options-- or just keep my LS until the the next next-generation S comes out. Thank goodness I realistically have that long-term hold option with an LS.

    2007 S Class
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You stated that Mercedes' quality was going backwards. All I did was point out that statement isn't correct. I didn't "bash" the survey at all and again I've never disputed what they found. I stated that if you're going to mention MB and survey in the same post you should at least do so accurately. Who said anything about Mercedes trying to "beat GM's quality"?

    Unlike you, I am offering ideas of how MB can turn things around, you OTOH, are content to bash JDP and anyone who subscribes to their work as hog wash... Its your choice, don't shoot the messenger (me), address the message (JDP).

    I haven't seen any such thing in a post from you. All you offered was a incorrect spin on the results. BTW, I think we've had this conversation before about what I have done as far as ideas on what MB can do. Did you forget that? We had a very good conversation (no debating) about this a while ago.

    I didn't shoot the messenger, only the bogus information.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    That picture is no where near being the real thing. Not by a long shot. The picture is one of the worst computer generated images I've seen of the S-Class.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Got tix on Fandango for midday Friday. If you want to fly to NJ, I'll treat you. Heck, you can drive the GX470 or LS430 too - Your choice.

    An offer I can't refuse..... :D :D :D Hmmm the GS or the LS? I'll take the LS I guess seeing as though SUVs aren't my thing. They had a spot on the local news here today in which people were going to the movies instead of work. You should have seen it people covering their faces and trying work from laptops in the movie theater lobbies all over. Too funny.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    A Maybach-like rear is correct as Edmunds described it. Without seeing it from the frontal view, its difficult to tell much about the exterior styling. From the side pic, the new S just doesn't add any interesting xter beynod the fender flares, IMO. I cannot imagine doing away with the current style, since it was such a beautiful design, graceful and luxurious.

    By the same token, recent MB releases leave a less than impressive feeling. Take the new CLS, the butt is worse than the Bangled 7-series (see for yourself in the link below):

    image

    and the interior....

    image

    I don't know about you, but I am not impressed. This is not a good styling direction, imo. Maybe they need an L-Finesse approach and do a complete overhaul. Maybach-like styling ain't an improvement.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Thank goodness the marketplace doesn't share your opinion, neither does anyone in the press from what I've seen. The CLS is a hit inside and out. A L-Finesse approach would be the worst mistake Mercedes could ever make. Styling isn't their problem by a long shot. Good styling doesn't need a name either. All this L-Finesse, Art & Science and Flame Surfacing stuff wouldn't be needed if these companies either stuck to their previous styling cues and/or if they had any to begin with.

    Most people know good styling when you they it, no goofy names or labels are needed.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "That picture is no where near being the real thing. Not by a long shot. The picture is one of the worst computer generated images I've seen of the S-Class."

    Have you not seen the pics of a cladded and taped up 2007 S-class on the net?? Those pics are unaltered and you can easily see the major details of the car, like the thick rimmed wheel well trim, and the maybach like rear end. Totally unattractive, especially compared to the current S-class, which is simple perfection in design.
  • Merc:

    I can only give my opinion as a part of the Market Place...but...That interior design is hidious..and IMO...the color is even worse.

    I know that even ugly puppies (if there is such a thing) are loved by someone.
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