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High End Luxury Cars

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  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Listen, Michael had the car for quite some time, he loved it and it served him well. We need closure on this or they'll have to wheel us all away in straight jackets.

    "Somebody get a dictionary and look up this friggin word 'closure'."

    Ljflx, gotta beat on who said it?
  • People keep repeating that, expecting that if said often enough everyone will believe them...I KNOW BETTER.

    If you truly believe what you are saying ...where is the proof.
  • Some of the things the Allante can do

    it can sense the onset of traction loss and apply pulsed braking EVEN WHILE THE DRIVER KEEPS A FOOT ON THE ACCELERATOR.

    It can electronically cut out up to five of the eight clyinders to provideadditional slowing power, and bring them back on line when traction has been restored.

    It shifts its four-speed transmission electronically, guided by a computer that actually anticipates each shift based on the driver's demands. If you are driving agressively the car anticipates that and the Powertrain Control Module holds the car in each gear a little longer for better acceleration but when you want to drive sedately the computer recognizes that too and shifts eariler, saving gas and engine wear.

    The Allante, in an emergency, can drive for miles with an empty radiator, cutting cylinders out in rotation just before they overheat and then switching them back in as they cool.

    But what the Allante mostly is, is really, really fast, the fastest front-wheel drive car in the world, the 32 valve, 4.6 liter V8 engine, which Cadillac calls the Northstar, is just a detuned raching engine, with aluminum pistons (to save weight) and a fuel-injection system built of nylon, magnesium and spaceage plastics intended to insulate the incoming fuel from the heat of the cylinder head. "the beauty of this system," in the estimation of J. David Powell, and engineering professor at Stanford," is that the fuel is much cooler, allowing a more dense air/fuel charge into the combustion chamber for additional horsepower," In practical terms this means that the 1993 Allante will go from 0-60 in 6.9 sec. That is pretty fast although not as fast as a specially modified Jaguar XJR-15 which will do it in 4.5 sec. But that costs $1 Million dollars.

    FROM MACHINE DESIGN June 11, 1992

    The engine is quiet, even with the hood up, and the car is quiet while running. Cadillac designers' work on lowering wind-noise paid off, because with the top down I was able to hold conversations without yelling.

    The Twisty mountain roads allowed me to test the car's real-time damping and speed-sensitive steering. Damping system sensors measure the relationship of the wheels to the car body to reduce body pitch and roll during cornering, front-end dive during braking, and lift during acceleration. The speed-sensitive steering is continuously variable, so changes are imperceptible, even during the slow-down/speedup of hairpin turns.

    All together, the car inspires confident driving.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    And still this pointless war rages on. Mike, buddy, you need to give it up. You're not convincing any of us that the Allante was an SL killer, just as the motoring press was not convinced, and the general public was not convinced. When you have a superior product that is doing well, you don't kill it off, plain and simple. The "sport light" cars have been around, in their various nomenclatures for more than half a century. The Allante seriously pales compared to that kind of dynasty of historic automobiles (show me a $3,000,000 Allante 40 years from now.) It was a nice try, but nice try isnt good enough, and its fate was sealed.
  • lEXUSGUY:

    IF you had not posted again on this subject, I would not feel obligated to do so.

    When you say any of us ...do you presume to speak for the rest of the board?

    Based on the figures provided in 1993 Allante sold 6700 units and the 500SL sold 1700 units...Why Cadillac discontinued production I do not know and didn't understand at the time....I do know that Cadallic engineers had finally figured out how to have a fully retractable top without losing luggage space they were scheduled to introduce the car in 1995 when cadillac pulled the plug.

    40 years from now show me a 3 million dollar 1993 500SL...It is more likely that I will be able to show you that 3 mill Allante. It is still a beautifull car today. The 93 500SL looks dated today.
  • upon further reflection I do recall that GM had just gotten a new CEO and he pulled the plug on ALLANTE over stern objections by Cadillac.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,665
    You've got me on that one.
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    Pat? Help!!
  • Warthog:

    The Allante is a high end luxury car, we talk about BMW Past and present, Merc, Jag, Rolls, Bentley, Audi etc. and all manor of Luxury Cars of all ages here.

    I would also note that myself and Lexus were two of the few posters here for the last couple of days.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Mattox,

    Articles saying the ALlante was good doesn't mean it was better than the Mercedes SL. Those are excerpts of just the Allante and none of them say the Allante is something along the line of.."the best convertible money can buy"..."The most solid convertible"..."the best built convertible".

    From everything I remember reading about the SL from 89? to the late 90s said it was one of the best convertibles money can buy with unmatched solidity. I don't need proof, everyone hear can pretty much say they have read the same thing in magazines. Besides, you say Car and Driver rated the Allante over the SL500, but where's the proof? You haven't shown any proof/facts either. I think if you went down to a Public library and pulled out every article about the previous SL, they will pretty much tell you the SL was the most solid convertible on the market. Also, read some C5 Corvette Convertible articles, which will mention the SL, but no Allante in reference to body rigidity.

    And no one is saying the Allante is flimsy or something, just saying the SL was the benchmark for convertibles in the 90s.
  • Max:

    I do have an edge on you...I owned an Allante and drove a couple of SLs before I bought the Allante.

    I am not sure of the Magazine but I thought Car & Driver but could have been one of the other majors, Rated the 93 Allante above the SL in a comparison ...I believe Allante also got a top rating in a prior year but I don't remember for sure....

    I have been to the local Library but their computer listing of reviews only go back to 94...The same also seems to be true of the internet Can't find much on either of these cars....They were limited production special cars....

    I think Three things seperated the 93 Allante from the 93 500SL....1)Luggage space and room generally, you could actually tour with the car take two sets of golf clubs or ski's and still bring luggage and a significent other. 2) The Northstar system and the innovations mentioned in a previous post. 3) It was a far more Beautiful car.

    I should add that the front wheel drive was a godsent in snowy CT where I lived when I bought the car....With Blizzacks It could pretty much handle any conditions.
  • But not when you're reading the same crud over and over again. This debate has gone on far too long.

    Michael_Mattox, you have stated many good reasons as to why YOU chose to buy the Allante over the SL. You think the Allante was the better car, but no one else here agrees with you so just leave it be. The great thing is that we can all disagree with eachother, but we don't have to battle things out like this. Trying to give reason why YOU think the Allante is the better car is a lost cause, because try as you might, no one is supporting you in your views. Just because it was a better car for you, does not mean it is the better car for others. And hey it's not 1993 anymore, so why don't we talk about the cars of today & tomorrow, and not the cars of yesteryear?

    Let's change the topic. Has anyone seen the new Toyota sedan that came out in Japan? It is called the Crown Majesta. What do you guys think? Here it is
    image
    image

    image

    Kinda reminds me of a Maybach in the rear. The interior is gorgeous though.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    This is amazing. (Last Post)

    "In your previous post the chart showed 700+ units and you said that was US sales???? I accept 1700+ for the SL500....Allante sold 6700 in 93."

    No chart or link I ever posted said anything like that. Period. It said (they MBUSA.COM) said 1721 sales for 1993. End of story. You said 700 or 800 in your confused state. The link didn't change from one posting to another, you simply got confused. The only reason the Allante sold 6700 copies is because it had a 18 month-long 1993 model year. The 93 model was intro'd in the spring of 1992 and you're acting like that doesn't make a difference when adding up model year sales.

    I cannot for the life of me understand how one can appreciate Lexus on one hand and can't accept the truth about a Cadillac on the other.

    The Allante was cancelled because:

    1. It debuted with a truly sorry 140hp V8.
    2. It was fwd in a sea of rwd competitors.
    3. It had the worlds most ridiculously cheap convertible top.
    4. It in the begining was built like an outhouse.
    5. It never sold because of the above.
    6. The car had a ridiculously expensive production process that involved flying bodies-in-white from Itality to Detroit, how stupid could GM have been. This costs them $$$$ that they didn't have back then.

    When you look at the two cars just on paper it seems to be common sense to everyone else that the Allante at best wasn't even competitive with the 500SL, at worst it was junk.

    It has taken 10+ posts to understand the SL was the same car from 1990 onward and that the SL500 and 500SL is the same exact car. Once it was proven that the Allante having sold 20K units in 7 model years compared to 23K for just 6 with the SL, the theory change to the 1993 model year. It was implied that the 1993 Allante could outpeform any SL, yet when the 600SL was mentioned it was never heard about again.

    "I think Three things seperated the 93 Allante from the 93 500SL....1)Luggage space and room generally, you could actually tour with the car take two sets of golf clubs or ski's and still bring luggage and a significent other. 2) The Northstar system and the innovations mentioned in a previous post. 3) It was a far more Beautiful car.

    1. Nobody cared, obviously.
    2. The 32V DOHC V8 in the 500SL still outperformed it. The 600SL V12 would obliterate it.
    3. Purely subjective.

    This is the what the superiority case is based on?

    The Allante was never placed over the 500SL in any comparo by any of the major U.S. mags. Those being Car and Driver, Road and Track, Automobile, Motor Trend, or any others like Autoweek, Sports Car International or any other sane publication anywhere.

    Car and Driver placed the Allante over the 300SL, not the 500SL or 600SL in a comparo, which I'll have to find now because this is a truly stunning denial of everything. The only thing that the Allante was superior in was accleration, obviously.

    If this had been a Mercedes vs a Lexus with the Mercedes having the track record of the Allante, you'd believe everything written about the Lexus being superior. It is amazing you haven't said anything about the market, press or anything else you use when saying Lexuses are better. It is painfully obviously that those usual Lexus specialities can't be used. Nothing in any of those articles say anything about the SL, much less than the Allante was better.

    Lastly, you never even drove the 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 SL. How could you possibly know how it drove or was built? You prove that you had no experience with the 1990-2002 SL because everyone who ever drove the car will tell you it was indeed built like a tank, heck your own ratings for the Allante showed it to have a inferior body and interior.

    The boast about having the fastest front wheel drive car in the world is the silliest thing in the automotive world. Nobody, and I mean nobody else was dumb enough to put 300hp to the front wheels of a luxury roadster, in short.....nobody else was competiting so the Allante was the fastest in a class of one. Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche all had 2-door cars during those years and you didn't see any of them saddled with fwd.

    The SL model you drove was designed in the late sixties for a 1971 debut and was out of date by the time the Allante came on the scene in 1987.

    "In practical terms this means that the 1993 Allante will go from 0-60 in 6.9 sec."

    I know for a fact that the 500SL was faster than that. I know you don't believe it without the comparo, and I promise I won't post again until I have the comparo in front of me. I'll just put up the numbers and their notes, none of my opinion.

    The sad thing is that I still have the 500SL roadtest by Motorweek from 1990 on tape. Don't know how to get that on here.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I thought that was the JDM version of the new Acura RL for a minute. It does indeed favor the Maybach from the rear. Curiously there a number of cars with this rear end, trunk-hump styling theme. Even Hyundai's XG350 looks similar:

    image

    image

    This is not a good styling trend, imo.

    The best view of the Crown Majesta is from the side because from the front and rear looks like an Acura RL or something Korean. They (Koreans) seem prefer a look that says updated Lincoln or something at least at the rear and unfortunately the Maybach has a similarly unattractive rear.

    M
  • I rather like the trunk on the Maybach. I think it looks very elegant. And if you've seen the Spy pics of the New S, which I'm sure you have, the S seems to be going in the direction of the Maybach in the rear. I do agree though, both the XG350 and the Elantra have that trunk shape. I think if done right, such as on the Maybach it looks elegant. Toyota didn't accomplish the same effect if you ask me with the Crown Majesta. I think the Maybach needs more work in the front than in the rear, personally.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    This Crown is a very interesting car, though we'll most likely never see it in the NA market. It would obviously step on LS's toes. Previous crowns have been REALLY boring designs, so it is a major step forward in that respect, and yes, the interior is gorgeous. The Koreans still have not developed any sense of style. This can somewhat be excused because of their relatively short time thus far as global players, but the blatant rip-offs of Japanese and European designs always pale to the originals and make them look as second rate as they still are. The worst of which that comes to mind is the Kia Sorento, which steals so much from the RX300 that I was a little surprised Toyota didnt take them to court over it. I guess since the RX was going to be replaced when the Sorento showed that they figured it wasnt worth it.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    We had a trivia topic on the News and View board once.

    I asked: Under what sigle brand can you find a Maybach, Saab, and Ferrari all for less than the originals?

    The Answer: Hyundai.

    The Elantra GT is a dead-ringer for the old Saab 900/9-3 5-door hatchbacks. The Tiburon GT is a Ferrari 456GT clone and the XG300/350 is your Maybach knockoff.

    Their sister brand Kia has what has to be the largest number of borrowed styling ques of any car on the market in their Amanti model. The front is either Jaguar or Mercedes, and the back is either Lincoln or Buick. What a mess of a car.

    Lexusguy,

    I tried not to say this, but Toyota of all companies can't take anyone to court because of copied or borrowed styling. In the Chinese market where some Chinese companies have blatantly taken designs from them (GM and Honda too) maybe, but not here. Toyota has too many arguable knock-offs of their own to take anyone to court over anything.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,665
    The front grill is a bit too Acura like. But the side profile, with those beautiful wheels is stunning and looks like a very regal and expensive car. The rear lights and decklid look good on the car but I tend to agree with merc1 that this is not a good overall movement in design. The interior is beautiful and will probably be similar to the next LS. Toyota has never brought the Crown here and if it wasn't for the Lexus styling change I would have thought that it could be the next LS.

    Isn't the Crown the Toyota that has a V-12 or a V-12 option?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    Do we have to go thru this again?

    Please list all the knock-offs Toyota/Lexus makes! I bet you you can only come with 2-3, even somewhat legitimate knock-offs.
  • Prince:

    I am posting only in response to others who insist on telling me what EVERYBODY thinks...If you guys stop I will...How simple could that be.
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