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High End Luxury Cars

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  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    It is the Germans that underestimate the competition. Look at how Lexus beats their behinds. BTW, if they can't make a $2000 navigation system work, how can I trust the Germans to make a $100k car that will work?
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Posts: 351
    Let's see... I suppose there is no difference between an electrical component with circuit boards and LCD displays and a complex mechanical vehicle. Without diving into a pointless holy war on this matter, my 2003 530SP has been as faultless as any Lexus could hope to be, not to mention more enjoyable to drive!

    Also, I do believe Lexus and Infiniti have taught the Germans a few things that they have found hard to swallow on the quality production (i.e. Lean) front due to cultural reasons as much as anything.

    Maybe a wise idea would be to curb the generalizations, as most true enthusiasts here recognize the Japanese marques for both their faults AND strengths. Upon due diligence, you may find that the underlying electronics in a German Nav system may not be of German origin at all... maybe so. Does anybody know who the major supplier is?
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    If Germans can get the same underlying electronics from the same place as the Japanese, why is it that they can't put them together and make it work like the Japanese? This make the Germans look even worse. How then can they put a $100K car together and make it work?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Without diving into a pointless holy war on this matter, my 2003 530SP has been as faultless as any Lexus could hope to be, not to mention more enjoyable to drive!

    I often wonder if the rest of the world drivers with cars and trucks do not enjoy driving them ? How is your 2003 530SP more enjoyable to drive than say my 2003 Matrix XR? That car is small, nimble, and tight; about the only negative is its puny 130HP motor. But when you get it going to the 3000rpm range, it sure moves... like every other car out there. It remains a myth of mythical (pun intended) proportions that those with SPs enjoy their driving more than any of us with our luxury cruisers... What if my ideal ride is a luxury cruiser ???

    As to your other point: How about BMW or VW getting an in-dash multi-CD changer ? That ain't that much of a technological marvel to do these days, or is it ???
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    "One thing I would like to see Lexus do is provide better chairs. They need to rip apart a Volvo seat and copy it to the letter."

    AMEN to that, guy...... Very flat and unsupportive....
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    This make the Germans look even worse. How then can they put a $100K car together and make it work?

    Simply because they want their cars to be equipped with more sophistication than competitors. Unfortunately greater sophistication and complexity involves more bugs and a longer learning curve for the driver!

    BMW is attempting to dumb down and simplify idrive to the same level as their competitors. I believe I read that MB is trying to reduce the complexity of their Command system. If these endeavors do happen then there should be little distinction between a hardware/software bug attired in a Kimono or in Lederhosen ;) .
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    As to your other point: How about BMW or VW getting an in-dash multi-CD changer ?

    Oh man that is just so passe! IToday ipod is essential while a a CD changer should be an option for those geriatric folks!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    What if my ideal ride is a luxury cruiser

    A Luxury Cruiser: In my case give me a chauffeur and wake me up when the ride is over!
  • rl81rl81 Posts: 53
    When BMW started (in 1994) they used VDO, which is part of Siemens. By the way, they were the first ones in Europe.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    " IToday ipod is essential while a a CD changer should be an option for those geriatric folks!"

    Call me geriatric, my dear Dewey.... But I still want my multi-CD changer cos all my music so far are on CDs. Only this past week my daughters bought me my first iPod, a Nano, from their baby sitting money, so I am now keeping up with the Joneses !! So, yes I will like an iPod plug in my next luxury cruiser in addition to my multi-CD changer, pls. Thank you, Lexus...
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "my 2003 530SP has been as faultless as any Lexus could hope to be, not to mention more enjoyable to drive!"

    See, this is where drivers of German cars and Lexus drivers have dfferent philosophies. German drivers think 2 years of reliable service is enough to call a car "faultless". We dont think quite the same way. Call me in ten years, and if its still faultless, then yes, it would be in the same league with Lexus.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Oh C'mon Lexusguy,

    I have a 7 year old BMW E46 and my wife has a 23 year old MB300TD!

    Faultless is the word to describe our two German cars!

    Such gereralized claims as German cars are unreliable and Japanese car are faultless is a BOGUS STATEMENT and you yourself know that!

    I am in the financial business and I do look at the financial consequences of owning a car! BMW is NUMERO UNO in terms of residual values! And it is DEPRECIATION that is the numbeer one expense of owning a car. Maintenace and fue costl are usually a small percentage when compared to depreciation. And it is the minimal depreciation of BMWs compared to Lexuses that will make a BMW more financially rewarding.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Don't minimize the free maintenance for BMW..... Free oil changes, scheduled interval maintenance, belts, hoses, lightbulbs, wiper blades, and even brakes & rotors! Edmunds estimates all Lexus models to cost between $1300-$1500 just in maintenance in the first 3 years alone.
  • The old Mercedes was pretty much faultless ...Mostly because it was so spartin...but we can't live in the past.

    Most of us do not talk about all Japanese cars being faultless....We talk about the Lexus LS being as Faultless as a car can be.

    Even you German car fans agree they have problems that have persisted for over a decade now..

    When you compare A LS 430 Ultra at $71,000 ...and the comporable 7 series at probably $70-110,000 (you tell me what a top of the line 7 series costs)

    You have saved approx $30,000 on day one by just buying the Lexus....Now maybe you or someone else has numbers on what a 5 yr. old 7 costs vrs a 5 yr old LS Ultra....both top of the line with Nav. and everything else.
  • that lexus expense includes a change of Transmission fluid and I believe brake fluid which I don't think are covered on the BMW free Maintance ....It also includes oil changes at 5000 miles rather then 15,000 on the BMW...Then when your warrenty runs out on the Bemer ...God help You...
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Everything, bumper to bumper was covered under my 3 year warranty for my BMW e46, except brake pads! It been 4 years since my warranty expired and it appears God has helped me!
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "Faultless is the word to describe our two German cars!"

    If you have two German cars that have never had a mechanical or electrical problem, thats wonderful, but its not a valid statistic. Statistics say that the SC430 is the most faultless of any car in the world, and the LS430 is the most faultless sedan in the world. You cant argue with that.

    The point I'm trying to make is, I dont think two years of good reliability is something to applaud. I expect that from a car. It would be like applauding the builders of my house because its been 5 years, and the roof hasnt fallen in.
  • It is good to have God on your side, especially when you own a German car these days...
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Just curious, Dewey, how many miles are on your e46 Bimmer ? For reference sake, my 1999 LS400 now has 109K miles with up-to-date regular maintainance, and you'd swear it had no more than 10K miles by the sound of its engine, its quiet interior, its quite ride, and plush interior. With the exception of my wife bashing it in a couple of places on the front fender, and someone ripping off a front turn signal, that car has just been perfect. Now, that's what I call a reliable car...
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Statistically prove to me that BMW3 and BMW5 series are unreliable. Beyond these two vehicles I dont care what the statistics are because I am buying one car not the whole brand( I have no intention upon doing a hostile take-over of BMW)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Oac,

    My BMW e46 has 114k since 1999!

    My anecdotal evidence will not persuade you or anyone. But it has has persuaded me.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Your annecdotal evidence has persuaded you that particular units you own are reliable.

    But ask yourself if, when making his next purchase decision, an individual should go by the "sample of one" that his last purchase represents? Or does it make sense instead to refer to a broader sample?
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    that lexus expense includes a change of Transmission fluid and I believe brake fluid which I don't think are covered on the BMW free Maintance ....It also includes oil changes at 5000 miles rather then 15,000 on the BMW...Then when your warrenty runs out on the Bemer ...God help You...

    Of course BMW covers fluid changes! Where'd you get that? They cover everything except tires and rotations for 4yr/50k.... including free oil changes, scheduled interval maintenance, belts, hoses, lightbulbs, wiper blades, and even brakes & rotors! I don't know about you, but I hate to have to shell out $500+ every year just in upkeep.

    There's a ton of talk about "when you're out of warranty" or "long term"..... How many luxury car buyers keep their cars beyond the warranty period?

    Consider this (courtesy of Consumer Guide): Half of all luxury vehicles are leased, so those people will always be under warranty. Of the remaining half, I'll be conservative and estimate that half of those will keep the car beyond the warranty coverage. Then, of course, of that remaining 25% of people who keep their cars a long time, how many got an extended warranty in anticipation of keeping their car a long time? (Don't know for sure, but I'll say 1/5 of those people). That comes to about 80% of people that don't need to worry about repair costs.

    Perhaps these Edmunds forums attract that remaining 20%.... or perhaps just those that need to find something negative on BMW, et al.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Like pretty much all German cars, the E46 5 series started out totally unreliable, and gradually improved. By '01, they were pretty good, and '03s were very good (for a German car). Then it was replaced, and reliability went down the toilet (as usual). I'm not making this up. Look at the residuals for '97 5 series cars vs. '98s. The '97s take a beating on resale because they are known to have terrible reliability records. Stastically, if you want a reliable German car, buy the last model year before redesign, as they have usually worked out all of the bugs by then. This is true of Audi, BMW, and Mercedes. If you enjoy spending lots of time at the service department, buy an initial year.
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    Ever wonder where your gas money goes? Well, you and I might want a silver Audi A8, but if you are the Sheikh of Abu Dhabi, you get an A8 made of silver!

    image

    It goes nicely with the rest of his car collection. He seems to have a preference for BMWs... 10 7s and only 2 Ss and 2 RRs. Oh BTW, that is his home, not a hotel -- and you can only see a small part of it in this picture.

    image

    And of course this is for the bright desert sun :shades:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Forget my anecdotal experience and let us look at the HARD STATS!

    Lexusguy,

    did we not have this identical conversation before in another forum!

    Initial year intros tend to have more bugs, that is a phenemona that exists not only with BMW but also with Lexus(Lexus GX470)!

    The 97 5 series unreliable? Check the CR stats, the reliability is average. And average is not what I would call unreliable!

    As I said please prove to me statistically that either the BMW3 and BMW5 series are unreliable!

    I think it is long overdue that this "BMW unreliability myth bubble" should burst! In fact this myth is about the only justification in buying a Lexus. If everybody knew the hard and cold facts then very few would choose to buy an appliance-like Lexus!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I dont see this Sheikh's Prius?
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    Right now I have a strange problem with the radio, it just sort of recycles or misses a beat eavery five seconds only on fm...The right rear folding mirron doesn`t extend itself all the way about half the time, and the laser cruse control is broken....I`l carry it in shortly and I am sure all will be fixed, but Lexus does have it`s share of problems.....Tony
  • $500 per yr. in upkeep is cheap compared to the cost of constant breakdowns some possibly in lonely area's with no cell phone service or rough area's in the big city...

    Dependability has a relatively small maintance cost and pays bid dividends in lots of area's not just finincial.

    I keep my cars until I don't trust them any longer ....If they leave me stranded anywhere even once I get another car. I they get old and beat up and tired, they have reached the point where I no longer trust them...OR....

    Until a new pretty one catches my eye...like that 07 LS that will be out soon...A 4WD Hybrid really sounds interesting to me.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    500 per yr. in upkeep is cheap compared to the cost of constant breakdowns some possibly in lonely area's with no cell phone service or rough area's in the big city...

    What are you suggesting by the above statement and can you back it up with statistics!
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