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High End Luxury Cars

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  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Thats because Mercedes has always been in the middle of a BMW and a Lexus in terms of sportiness....

    Hate to get in the middle of a food fight, but I'd argue that the word *sport* and the cars we debate on this forum - S, 7, A8 and LS - do not belong. So I'd suggest we eschew the word *sport* from this forum permanently, imo, cos no one buys these large sedans because of their *sportiness*....
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    This is true, except for in the case of an odd 750i Sport buyer, but the difference mentioned in my above post is in fact there and it is a factor to some buyers. A luxury car can still give a great ride and be somewhat fun to drive. It doesn't have to float and keel to give a good ride either, the S-Class proves that. Now when Lexus makes this new LS more roadworthy without ruining the ride you'll all of sudden see the point.

    M
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    "How about defending the 7 on its status as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" amongst its direct competitors?"

    Invalid, because that would be the 5 series, if any. The 7 is strictly a status symbol, IMO. It's too complex to even drive without a training course - how can that be the ultimate driving machine? :confuse:
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "How about defending the 7 on its status as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" amongst its direct competitors?"

    It isnt. The Maserati Quattroporte owns that title. Compared to the Maser's Ferrari V8 and F1 gearbox, the BMW is hardly an "ultimate" anything.
  • i think more accurately it should be....nobody on this forum purchases
    a Lexus with sportiness in mind.

    the S, 7, & A8 all have packages and
    variations in model to add more "sport" to the equation. just because these
    automobiles aren't pint sized or mid sized doesn't mean they can't be driven
    with a lot of enthusiasm.

    when i purchased my 05 A8 sportiness played a large factor in the decision.
    the model i purchased is the short wheel base version. it is incredibly nimble
    but at the same time gives you the width and comfort of a larger sedan. all that
    and you can still sit comfortably in the back seat.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,678
    However you want to look at it but I'd bet that 5% or less of the people that buy any of these cars are looking for sportiness and I'm talking flagship cars here.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Blah blah blah blah...... I'm still waiting for someone to reply.

    As I said in my earlier post, "There's a ton of talk about "when you're out of warranty" or "long term."

    If there are just a small percentage of people that keep their cars beyond the warranty period, then there are only a very small percentage that truly need to worry about the cost of reliability.

    And, as I also said in my earlier post..... "Perhaps these Edmunds forums attract that remaining 20%.... or perhaps just those that need to find something negative on BMW, et al."
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    If there are just a small percentage of people that keep their cars beyond the warranty period, then there are only a very small percentage that truly need to worry about the cost of reliability.

    Here's a reply from "someone": What do you think happens to cars when they go off lease - do they get tossed into the ocean? These cars get passed on to other owners, only some of which are under manufacturer certified extended warranties. And even those extended warranties are limited in time and coverage; for example, most don't cover electronics, which is what is most likely to break in these cars. Reliability is very relevant to these owners.

    Second, how do you think lease rates are set? Are residual values related to how these cars will hold up 3, 4 or 5 years after initial purchase? You better believe it.

    Third, even if a repair is covered under warranty, I for one don't want to spend my free time dealing with service departments. And if I buy (or lease) an $80,000 S, I don't want to be driving some lesser loaner car while the dealer tries to figure out what's wrong with my car. Read the forums for some of these cars (MB especially), and you'll see people disgusted with the time they don't even have their new cars because they are in the shop.

    Finally, I am one of those people who want to keep their cars beyond any warranty, so it is very relevant to me. And I don't believe MB would be going through the management changes and financial difficulties it is if these reliability issues were just the imagination of a few posters on this forum.

    So the lack of reliability is in fact relevant to a lot of people, including 8,500 former Mercedes employees that are losing their jobs.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    …I'd argue that the word *sport* and the cars we debate on this forum - S, 7, A8 and LS - do not belong.

    Compared to the Maser's Ferrari V8 and F1 gearbox, the BMW is hardly an "ultimate" anything.

    However you want to look at it but I'd bet that 5% or less of the people that buy any of these cars are looking for sportiness and I'm talking flagship cars here.


    Spoken like true Lexicans. Poor sport sedan ain’t good fuh nuttin. In that case I guess the Quattroporte was a blunder. Ditto the 7 and the MB tuners.

    Not only do you guys not appreciate what a sport sedan is, I doubt whether you even know what it is. The closest some of you guys have come to acknowledging the existence of a sport sedan is by saying it makes your teeth rattle. Well have this for breakfast now that you have ruined mine… In comparison to the 7 the LS is nothing more than a Lincoln Town Car and DeVille. Don’t even talk to me about fit finish and reliability because it doesn’t apply to this particular topic.

    This place needs is a couple of 7owners. Lexicans don’t know sport. Period.

    Ever wonder why the LS sport package doesn’t sell? Because Lexicans don’t know sport. There’s no use, we live on two different planets.

    ;-)
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,678
    "Spoken like true Lexicans. Poor sport sedan ain’t good fuh nuttin. In that case I guess the Quattroporte was a blunder. Ditto the 7 and the MB tuners."

    You must be in a bad mood today. Let's add up the volume of those car sales in the segment and see if we get over 5%.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,678
    "If there are just a small percentage of people that keep their cars beyond the warranty period, then there are only a very small percentage that truly need to worry about the cost of reliability."

    Why do you think MB resale values have fallen so far. The market for three year old MB's is quite weak. So.stop worrying about the cost of reliablility but start worrying about the value of your car. As the man said - you can pay me now or you can pay me later.

    So here you go:

    An S500 after 3 years:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/mercedesbenz/sclass/100003445/prices.html

    An S430 after 3 years:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/mercedesbenz/sclass/100003444/prices.html

    An LS430 after 3 years:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/lexus/ls430/100003418/prices.html

    A 7-series after 3 years:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/bmw/7series/100070588/prices.html

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/bmw/7series/100070589/prices.html

    An A8 after 3 years:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/audi/a8/100003619/prices.html

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/audi/a8/100003620/prices.html

    Let's remember the LS430 in this comparison is a $60K car vs. 75-85K for the others when new.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    You must be in a bad mood today.

    Nah, just stirring the sauce, making sure the sahzeeches don't stick to the bottom of the pot.

    Let's add up the volume of those car sales in the segment and see if we get over 5%.

    I'm waiting.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,678
    Not my job. Let someone disprove it. But you have about 80,000 cars in the segment so you need to be north of 4,000. Wherever it lands it'll still be a tiny minority.

    Hey - you went BMW and those resales blow away Audi and MB.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Well, the 7 alone did 12,773 YTD in September. That's approximately 16%.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,678
    That is hardly a tuned car or a true sports sedan.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I knew you would say something like that. I beg to differ. Read the reviews. The 7 is the sport sedan in this class and the A8 is right behind it. And when talking "tuning" throw the suspensions in there not just the engines. As a matter of fact, to the pure driver the suspension/steering is the most important part. MB does power, BMW does suspension and steering. Ask any 7 owner why they chose it over MB and Lexus and you will get one answer across the board... it's the ride.

    BMW does sport. Even the X3 ride blows away every SUV IMO with the excetion of the FX and Cayenne S close behind. And soon they will have a crossover, minivan, or whatever you want to call it, and I GUARANTEE it will blow away everything in its class when it comes to the sport ride. Furthermore, it will be the first vehicle in that class to even have the sport ride.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    YTD through September, 5.7% of 3-series sales are of the M3, and .014% of 5-series sales are of the M5. They don't even make a M7, of course.

    The numbers are somewhat unfair as presented as I believe both are based on the old platforms. So looking back at CY 2004, it was 7.4% for the M3 and 0.7% for the M5. For CY 2003, 7.2% for the M3 and 3.1% for the M5.

    My guess is that AMG numbers would probably be no higher.

    The numbers speak for themselves, and suggest that few sedan buyers are interested in getting as much sport as they possibly can. Rather, 95+% of buyers want some mix of sport and luxury. If their preference is a little more sport (but not ultimate sport), they'll buy a non-M BMW; if they want a little less, they'll buy a non-AMG MB or a Lexus.

    IMHO there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the ideal tradeoff between sport and luxury. It comes down to personal preference. Merc1 seems to think that MB presents the ideal balance between sport and luxury. A BMW owner thinks BMW presents the ideal balance. Each is right with respect to their own personal preference. But neither has the right to decide what is right for everyone.
  • there is an interesting article over at Autoweek.com about the upcoming LS.
    the designer mentions a couple of points. first they want the new LS to
    have more sporting character and the second is how they are trying
    to move Lexus from a luxury brand to a prestige brand. coming from the
    guy who is designing the car this says quite a bit. first he is acknowledging
    that the LS is not completely reaching the target audience Lexus wants and
    second that BMW and MB are still considered higher up on the automotive
    totem pole.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    INHO there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the ideal tradeoff between sport and luxury.

    I totally agree and would never argue that point. But the basis of my contention goes back to Oac saying…

    …I'd argue that the word *sport* and the cars we debate on this forum - S, 7, A8 and LS - do not belong.

    And the ultimate dis by Lexusguy…

    Compared to the Maser's Ferrari V8 and F1 gearbox, the BMW is hardly an "ultimate" anything.

    …because if I recall correctly, the reviews of the Quattroporte’s handling weren’t exactly glowing, plus the high revving engine and sequential gearbox in that thing don’t even belong on street cars in my opinion. BMW and Mercedes have the best formula for real-world engines.

    BMW doesn’t claim to be the ultimate LUXURY car, just the ultimate DRIVING machine with regard to SEDANS (it also applies to the SUVs), which is an accolade created not by themselves, rather by their buyers long ago. And compared with most of the real-world sedans in production, it is right on the money.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,678
    Some of the 7-series drivers I get behind are as conservative and slow as it gets. So I'd beg to differ. I have no doubt the 7 handles real well and better than an LS but I doubt people bought it just for that reason.
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    If they are that slow and conservative, yet want the space and the luxury, maybe BMW should come out with a 725--the platinum slug.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Some of the 7-series drivers I get behind are as conservative and slow as it gets.

    I’ve driven behind people in 911 Turbos who clog traffic. That’s not the point. There are plenty of slow-driving old people who love BMWs because the ride feels taught and secure to them. I’ve said this long ago and I’ll say it again, a car with a sportier suspension is also safer vehicle, and plenty of slow-driving people know it and feel it.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Not only do you guys not appreciate what a sport sedan is, I doubt whether you even know what it is. The closest some of you guys have come to acknowledging the existence of a sport sedan is by saying it makes your teeth rattle...

    The 7 is the sport sedan in this class and the A8 is right behind it...


    Designman: I'll second Len and say you probably started Monday on a sour note ;) How so ? We Lexicans (your word) don't understand or know what sport is ??? Now let me turn the question around: can you define for us what *sport* is ?

    Oh, just this past Saturday I was out to a BMW shop driving one of the ultimate sport sedans they have, a 330i, with SP, run-flats, low profile tires, fully sport-tuned car. Retailed at $45K and change. That was a sporty car, small, nimble, tuned to the heavens for sportiness...very very nice ride, taut and wound so tight I thought the steering was going to snap in my fingers... I put it through its paces.... uphills, twisties, straightaways, etc... my average speed on the test drive was ~80mph (higher in some places). Loved the car, but not the price. Just for the heck of it, took out an equally tuned IS350 with the 18" low-profile tires. Well, I wish you'd seen me in these two cars on the roads, you'd understand why I was grinnng from ear to ear... Not the sign of someone who doesn't know sporty cars, eh ???

    Now a 7-series is sporty ???? Ditto an A8 ??? Based on what ? a 19" wheel package ? A SWB trim ? Geez, let's see why someone wants to spend $80 large on a full-size family sedan because its sporty ??? That's the realm of Porsche's and M3/M5/645i/Z etc...

    Sorry if you are having a bad morning... how can I make it better ???
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Sorry if you are having a bad morning... how can I make it better ???

    Just agree with me… hmm… nope, on second thought, just keep debating, it’s no fun hitting a tennis ball back and forth against a wall ;-)

    can you define for us what *sport* is?

    Yeah I will do it later on… gotta get out of here. Keep in mind, you can’t compare any car in this class to the smaller cars. You can only compare them to each other. These cars are literally two-ton lizzies.

    For starters, go behind any BMW and observe the rear wheel camber. They have a healthy (sporty) dose of negative camber. This is most easily observed on the X5 because of its ground clearance and large wheels.

    (Some may ask, what’s negative camber? When viewed from behind the car, the top of the wheels tilt inward like the sides of the letter A.)
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Designman, over on the 2007 Lexus LS board, we're still waiting for your esteemed opinion on the styling of the LF-Sh. A great look at the car can be seen at http://lexus.jp/ms/ , click "LF-SH" at the top, then "movie" at the bottom and finally one of the choices under "booth" on the left.
  • The Japanese are known for being very Modest...

    BMW is what it is a Drivers Car ...If luxury is what you want buy Lexus if you want a Drivers Car...buy BMW

    MB is a Luxury car that is not very reliable...If you want an expensive car with lots of prestige and state of the art features that often work, buy MB...If you want Luxury and Reliability..With state of the art Audio, Ride, Quiet and interior...buy Lexus.
  • Designman:

    It am surprised you left the Lexus engine out of your comment...It compares to Mercedes and BMW engines with Approx 330+ HP vrs its 290 HP. Yet Its 0-60 times at 5.9Sec is faster then the BMW, Mercedes and Audi A-8 for that matter...

    It is the Cleanest engine of the group ....It is the most reliable engine of the group.

    In light of all that do you really think the BMW and Mercedes have the Best Formuals for real world engines ...and WHY?
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi All,
    I don't think Lexus has ever aspired to be the Japanese BMW...That is more up Infiniti's alley. I agree with the other "Lexicans" in the sense that none of these cars are "true" sport sedans (Maybe the XJR might be). If sport is desired why not go for a M3/5 or AMG MB?

    Also keep in mind the average age of the drivers who own these sort of cars. Aren't they all in their mid 50's? I don't see too many 35 yr olds desiring to own a 7 Series, S Class or LS430. They'd probably go for a 540,GS, AMG E..

    I still think cramming these cars with HP and electronics is a big mistake..My LS430 is more than enough for me. What's the point of 350 HP in a LS460? As it is, you can't even drive in MA beyond 65 MPH without getting a ticket. Somehow I don't see many people like me drag racing some kid in a Camaro or Mustang..Though I admit, I did do that when I got my latest LS430...It is funny to see the look on their face when a "Old Geezer's car" beats them cleanly at a stoplight.

    SV
  • second that BMW and MB are still considered higher up on the automotive
    totem pole.


    I personally think Lexus is more prestigious than BMW or MB.

    Why? I think prestige is NOT defined by the most expensive car a company produces---even some Korean or Chinese makers can build a limo if they want. It's the basic car, the bread&butter car that matters. I don't feel like buying a MB S600 knowing that millions of A-class cars are on the streets. Lexus at least starts with IS, the equivalent of C-class.
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