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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    No, not handling per say, just that there is no mention of driving at all. Nothing. The way a car drives, a sense of authority, should be part of the luxury equation too imo. A luxury car should impress in the drive before you even get into all the "stuff" that can be had on "regular" cars.

    Rolls-Royces "waft".

    M
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Rolls Royce is obviously a luxury brand (or ultra-luxury), but are their cars known for handling?

    BIG DIFFERENCE

    Most people drive their MBs and Lexuses
    Most poople get chauffeured in their Rolls Royces

    A wicked handling Rolls Royce will cause caviar stains on the attire of VIP passengers :(
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Most poople get chauffeured in their Rolls Royces

    More RRs are chauffered than MBs or Lexi, but I think it a strech to say that most are chauffered. I see a fair number of ultra-lux types around town (there is even a guy who drives an old RR to the train station each day) and only once have I seen one driven be a chauffer (it was a Maybach).
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    The problem with that definitinion of "luxury" is that sadly it doesn't include a thing about ...how it looks

    Do you like the exterior styling of the RR Phantom? I personally find it hideous (distinctive, maybe, but still ugly), but it is still a luxury vehicle.

    Anyway Lexus is finally making some progress on the styling front....some people are going to prefer the looks of the 2007 LS over the 2007 S....well, maybe not someone with the moniker "merc1".
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Rolls-Royces "waft".

    I have never driven one so just what does "waft" mean? An invented word that equals "mushy suspension" or something?
  • A car nut who does care about tradition would buy an older Mercedes...From Back in the days when they made good reliable cars....In those days the Technology was mostly mechanical and the German engineers excelled...TO DAY the state of the art is Electronic...The Japinese EXCELL...

    If you would like a AWD Super Sedan...a Lexus GS might be just the ticket for you or by year end 06 you could probably get a AWD LS....Then go storming down that Passing lane on a dark night on I89 heading to Montreal and be VERY CONFIDENT that the car will actually get you there without breaking down.
  • Merc.

    I think you have acknowledged that you don't actually own a ULTRA Luxury Sedan, although you have driven many....

    TO me The look of the car has nothing to do with LUXURY...To me Luxury is being pampered...Being safe...not being bothered by repairs...the knowledge that no matter how far I drive my car will get me there and back without hassel.

    In my youth I did see like the thrill of driving fast, taking corners at the limit, passing other cars at will and when room to do so was tight ....

    Now a Relaxed drive with a great sound system playing, With a through the dash 6 CD player in a quiet car, smoothly crusing in ultimate comfort...free from worry ...Is an awesome experience..

    It is an added thrill having the knowledge that my car can do 0-60 in 5.9 secs. That with the push of the power and sport buttons , my car will lower for added airo- dynamics and the steering will tighten for sharper control and the gearing can be changed for added pop off the line...
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    No, not handling per say, just that there is no mention of driving at all. Nothing. The way a car drives, a sense of authority, should be part of the luxury equation too imo.

    And any car doesn't *drive* according to you ???? Does an MB drive any better than a Lexus, or a Toyota or a Honda ? Like the S-, 7-, the LS is a RWD car, which means a better driving car than any FWD car. That the car *isloates* the driver is a part of luxury Lexus defines.... that which puts the ruts and grunts of the road outside the equation. Are you suggesting that feeling the road imperfections is a MUST-HAVE for driving experience ? Is that your definition of driving ???
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    Absolutely love my driving experience in my LS. Loved the S driving experience also when I drove it. They were virtually the same. This is pure myth (and psychological) as far as I am concerned - at least as it relates to Lexus and MB. BMW and Audi may be different though given preference for sport.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    By itself no it doesn't define a luxury car. But luxury cars are in part defined by convenience, imho. Such as electrically adjustable seats, and memory systems. If Lexus didn't have them, wouldn't MB fans be criticizing Lexus for it?

    In-dash changers are an obvious convenience feature...having 300 minutes of music easily available is better than having 50... and changers are widespread enough that if a luxury car doesn't have one, then it is imho slightly lacking. Not a huge deal, but a piece of the luxury jigsaw puzzle.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Is a CD player still optional on the S430? To me, thats just an insult, like going to a 5-star hotel and the coffee in the room is an $8 "option". When you're paying that kind of money, certain things are expected.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Is a CD player still optional on the S430? To me, thats just an insult, like going to a 5-star hotel and the coffee in the room is an $8 "option". When you're paying that kind of money, certain things are expected.

    LG: You capture all that I had been saying. That this is a minimal expectation from a $60K+ car when a car 75% cheaper has it standard... Not that it is a requirement for a luxury car. Not that MB cannot put one in their car as standard... Far from it.. But that MB chooses to put it in the trunk in MY2006 is plainly, imo, out-of tune with modern times.... Can they architect the S430 to have an in-dash CD changer or not ???? That is the question I'd like an answer to from an MB fan...

    More pointedly, what exactly does the $80K purchase of an S430 get vs what I get for my $65K purchase of an LS430 ??
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    You may have heard the news that VWoA has decided to discontinue sales of the car in USA/Canada in mid 2006. What do you think about the collect-ability factor for this car?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    More pointedly, what exactly does the $80K purchase of an S430 get vs what I get for my $65K purchase of an LS430 ??

    A car that people feel passionate about owning despite the lack of a CD Changer.

    I am willing to wager that the upcoming LS will be just as disappointing as the new generation GS and IS!

    Remember the thrill in these forums about the upcoming Lexus GS that will dethrone the BMW 5 series?

    Remember the thrill in these forums about the new and exciting IS that will knock the BMW 3 series from its Benchmark status!

    And now everyone is thrilled by the new LS that will show a thing or two about how a MB S series should really be!

    I am no Nostradamus but I do sense upcoming disappointemnt in the air for quite a few Lexus fans!
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    Paldi - If they keep making the car in Europe and not here I would think the odds are against it. But if they cease production completely it's a possibility. The big thing going against it is that it has a large resemblance to the A8. If there was a total production stop and the A8 resemblance was a lot less than I'd think there was a good chance. You have one so the question is do you think it is distinctly different enough from the A8 to warrant big price support in the future?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    Based on posts on the S-class board that's not the type of passion to be proud of. Personally I think all this passion nonsense is severely overblown and overhyped. If the passion was real the car would not lose value as rapidly as it does. In the 80's the passion argument made sense. Today it is total nonsense.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    "I am no Nostradamus but I do sense upcoming disappointemnt in the air for quite a few Lexus fans!"

    Most of us are owners and repeat owners, not fans. I'd say the chance of disappointment is 1 in 20. I sense something very different - that being a car the Germans will be following and which will be setting the pace.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Len: I wouldn't even start a debate about the 2007 LS v 2007 S class. That debate is coming real soon, I guess. But if an anecdote of Edmund's is to be a pointer, compare the level of interest based on posts for the 2007 LS v 2007 S. That'd tell you something, isn't it ??? Well, take a guess which car most people are talking about more ? Of course, I'd hear that the 2007 S is already a *known* commodity hence not much mystery/intrigue unlike the next LS, but that is the tip of the iceberg. More pointed is that even when known, the S is certainly not being described as the next thing to set the class on fire. No one who has seen the S has described it as a class setting, class defining car. Compare that to the LF-Sh unveiled last month in Tokyo.

    'Nuff said...
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Most of us are owners and repeat owners, not fans

    ljfx,

    You make a great point! It is about owning the car and not being a brand fan! It all boils down to preferences in terms of ride, luxury, performance, handling , reliability or a CD changer!

    But the difference between a MB S and a Lexus LS is that people are willing to pay 80k for the MB vs. 65k for the LS!

    You may ask why the market favors paying more for the MB S?

    Status and nothing else

    MB is overall a superior car in terms of the prefernces I mentioned above

    MB brand loyalty

    Stupidity--spending more money on a car that is not worth it


    We in this forum will not be able to determine what justifies the premium price of a Benz. But what cannot be debated is the fact that the market values the Benz far more highly in terms of dollars than a Lexus. And it is that value that is place on the Benz that proves its superiority!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    OAC,

    you can do a bit better than that cant you!

    I think the Lexus LS for the sake of a good debate deserves a better defense than the number of posts in a Edumunds forum!

    Based on your criteria the Lexus GS and IS would have made mincemeat out of the BMW 3 and 5 series if you took solely into account the number of posts in the future vehicle discusssions of the IS and the 3 series.

    Unfortunately that appears to be not the case!
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    In 1990 it was $85K vs $41K. By 2007 it will be $90K vs $85K. You're running out of time, my friend. By 2007 they'll be a $150K Lexus in showrooms and they'll be a $110K LS around the corner. The price argument is about to die. Guess what - those Lexus cars will hold the residuals and resales far better than their MB counterparts. The $65K LS already wins that battle against an $85K MB S right now after 4 years in actual dollars retained. In percentage of purchase price retained it's equivalent to a blowout in a football game. This is how the baton is passed in business.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    You have pointed out correctly that historically the LS is closing the price gap.

    But that declining price gap does not only reflect Lexus improvements. It also reflects the decline of perceived MB quality/reliability!

    With new MB management there is a good probability of a turnaround and if you have not noticed almost every single MB press release focuses on renewing quality/reliability of their product line. If MB qualtiy/reliability increases then you can make a safe bet that the MB price premium will remain intact.

    That 150K Lexus you mentioned will still be competing against a more expensive MB.

    In other words expect the MB price premium to remain!
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    MB had to drop the price of their cars in 1999 because of price pressure, most notably from Lexus. That was before the quality took a big plunge and before the perception of the quality problems became real. This isn't about their reliability issues at the MSRP level. The reliability issue comes in to play at the resale level - which is why the prices there are so telling. The 7% price increase on the S is a bold move given the horrendous resale values of an S class after 3 years. I'll go on record as saying that price increase will be a failure and that there will need to be plenty of MB subsidies on the car and it will happen very quickly.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Sometimes I feel like you simply want to argue for sake of it... You stretch a simple point ad infinitum... Do you factor that both the GS and the IS had not had a redesign in quite a while (GS in 7+ years; IS in 5 yrs), and the level of interest would certainly be great for these two cars ??? But even with such a heightened level of interest, I bet you that the number of posts and boards of BMW far outnumber the GS and IS combined. Especially if you add the gadzillion numbers of comparos where BMW and its competitors. Have you seen any such comparos for the 2007 LS and 2007 S ? Are you discounting that the LS and S cars are in different levels of interests compared to more affordable IS/GS/3/5-series ??? Should all these cars have any similar measures ?

    Like Len said, there are owners and their are fans...
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Really? I'll have to take your word for it, because I've yet to see one in my town. Yet, I can't swing a dead cat without hitting a new Mustang.... But, if you say sales took off......whatever that means. It is a very invisible car, maybe I just don't know what one looks like.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I'm just parroting what I've read. I can only remember actually seeing one on the road. I agree though, even the G6 coupe has more personality, and that isnt saying much.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I think I have to agree with ya, Mattox. I think the MB S-class is more fun to drive, and better looking than the LS-430, but in the end, after comparing them both with week long test drives, I chose the LS - and largely because of the things wrong with a new S-
    Class, and NOTHING wrong with the LS-430. Also, the LS is much less - hard to argue with that, even though the dang steering wheel is as large as an 83 Cadillac's.....
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The 7% price increase on the S is a bold move given the horrendous resale values of an S class after 3 years. I'll go on record as saying that price increase will be a failure and that there will need to be plenty of MB subsidies on the car and it will happen very quickly.

    Prices of the new MB S are increasing because MB is not as ruthless about cost cutting at the expense of quality as they have been in the past! Among their top goals now is to reduce warranty costs which should translate into increased future reliability!

    You assume the MB S future will resemble the past! I think otherwise! As has been said before, time will tell!
  • But the difference between a MB S and a Lexus LS is that people are willing to pay 80k for the MB vs. 65k for the LS!

    You may ask why the market favors paying more for the MB S?


    The assumption behind the question may be false. Very few people actually pay the $80k. A typical S class acquisition is done via lease. MB heavily subsidizes lease through unrealistic residues. An $80K S430 may have a lease residue of $55k, whereas in reality the car would have difficulty clearing $35k at auction after lease return! The missing $20k comes back to bite at MB finances three years later! A delayed pain is still pain; the car would have generated a total revenue of $60k (sans interest payment, which is also subsidized), or some $5k less than the competing Lexus, which does not subsidize leases.
  • their top goals now is to reduce warranty costs which should translate into increased future reliability!

    Not true. It could simply mean offering less warranty coverage and be more exacting towards customers. It has happened before, like their free maintenance service.

    You assume the MB S future will resemble the past! I think otherwise!

    Given that none of us has a crystal ball, the past is our only guide to future. "This time it will be different" are some of the most famous last words of the gullibles.
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