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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Do you like the exterior styling of the RR Phantom? I personally find it hideous (distinctive, maybe, but still ugly), but it is still a luxury vehicle.

    Not really no, but it is distinctive and bold, something that can't be said of a lot of cars. You know what it is instantly, no copying or imitation of anything else on the road - I like that to a degree. Same thing with Land Rover and Jaguar imo, they're not always the best looking cars in each segment, but you know what they are.

    Anyway Lexus is finally making some progress on the styling front....some people are going to prefer the looks of the 2007 LS over the 2007 S....well, maybe not someone with the moniker "merc1".

    Well me of course not, but the 2007 LS does look a lot better than the current car and the Lexus IS is like *that* close to being a good looking car. Though it is marred by childish details - like the rear tailights for instance they physically stick out from the body, I'm like what the hell? But yes, Lexus is redesigning their way out of the lame design colum, but the GS remians a letdown to me. I did enjoy driving the GS430 at the taste event.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I have never driven one so just what does "waft" mean? An invented word that equals "mushy suspension" or something?

    It is basically a term coined by RR. It means that the car glides along effortlessly, but with a sense of control, great power and authority.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    And any car doesn't *drive* according to you ???? Does an MB drive any better than a Lexus, or a Toyota or a Honda ? Like the S-, 7-, the LS is a RWD car, which means a better driving car than any FWD car. That the car *isloates* the driver is a part of luxury Lexus defines.... that which puts the ruts and grunts of the road outside the equation.

    Lots of questions there. Let me see, YES IMO a Benz drives better than a Lexus (at least in this segment we're talking about) because the ride is nearly the same in softness yet the S doesn't have the weak steering and keel over like the current LS. Now please explain to me why you think a car like a LS drives better than a high-end Toyota like the Avalon because its RWD. I seriously doubt any LS owner on this board has pushed their LS hard enough to be able to tell which wheels are doing the driving and/or to be able to explain the benifits of RWD when it comes to handling. You've got to be kidding me if you have to ask whether or not a 7-Series drives better than a regular car OAC. You should know the answer to that question. No, feeling every imperfection in the road isn't my definition of driving hence me liking the S-Class over the 7-Series and A8, but mushy steering and keeling over like the LS isn't my definition either.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Not that it is a requirement for a luxury car. Not that MB cannot put one in their car as standard... Far from it.. But that MB chooses to put it in the trunk in MY2006 is plainly, imo, out-of tune with modern times.... Can they architect the S430 to have an in-dash CD changer or not ???? That is the question I'd like an answer to from an MB fan...

    If it isn't a requirement then what is the point of this silly conversation about CD changers? Why would Mercedes make such a change on a car so late in the production cycle? It obviously isn't bothering anyone that much seeing as how the car is still very popular in its 7th model year!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Based on posts on the S-class board that's not the type of passion to be proud of. Personally I think all this passion nonsense is severely overblown and overhyped. If the passion was real the car would not lose value as rapidly as it does. In the 80's the passion argument made sense. Today it is total nonsense.

    Really? The excitement on the 2007 LS board is surely more indicative of how the car will sell then right? The new S won't sell anything because the same people aren't posting over and over like on the 2007 LS board right?

    Let me see if I have this right, just because Lexus doesn't inspire anything beyond raving about CD changers and driving along in total isolation what others feel for BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar and others Euros is nonesense. Yet when Lexus comes out with this V10 sports car and this rumored 400+hp LS600h you'll all of a sudden get passionate about Lexus because they'l truly have something worth getting passionate about right?

    There is nothing passionate about a car that looks like a Jaguar XK or CLS or the power of an M5 or the sound of a V10 or the design of a car like the A8? Come you know you like some of these Euro cars when you aren't reading Consumer Reports.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    But if an anecdote of Edmund's is to be a pointer, compare the level of interest based on posts for the 2007 LS v 2007 S. That'd tell you something, isn't it ??? Well, take a guess which car most people are talking about more ?

    That is just it, Edmunds isn't a pointer. There are virtually no E-Class owners in the Luxury Performance Sedans thread yet the E is a top seller in the class. I can't believe you and ljflx think that just because the same 10-15 people post over and over in the 2007 LS thread that means something magical for the LS and doomsday for the S-Class. Hype, hype, and more hype. Then you reach the real conclusion towards the end of your post. Right, the S is a known product compared to the LS which is trying to shed a dullard image.

    More pointed is that even when known, the S is certainly not being described as the next thing to set the class on fire. No one who has seen the S has described it as a class setting, class defining car. Compare that to the LF-Sh unveiled last month in Tokyo.

    Really? Like who? Please give the sources of this, not the usual hype. Who has seen the S-Class here? Much less who has driven it to know what it will do when it comes to market? So far the press has called the car an amazing achievement and things of that nature, but the U.S. press hasn't done their full road tests yet or any comparo, just short initial drives in Europe.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Remember the thrill in these forums about the upcoming Lexus GS that will dethrone the BMW 5 series?

    Yep. Didn't happen. All you'll get now is that the GS is selling so the mission has been accomplished, yet other Lexus owners have gone on the record and said that the GS didn't even come close to the 5-Series going by all the talk Lexus did before the GS came out.

    Remember the thrill in these forums about the new and exciting IS that will knock the BMW 3 series from its Benchmark status!

    Another one that isn't going to happen, or at least it hasn't so far. For one Lexus botched the powertrain on the IS350 and secondly the IS250 is absolutely hapless next to the 325i. Again, you'll get mounds of posts about it selling well and what not, so the goal has been met.

    And now everyone is thrilled by the new LS that will show a thing or two about how a MB S series should really be!

    Yep, Lexus will walk away with the segment in every way possible. No other car (especially the S-Class) will be able to make a sale or be superior in any way. This is the norm around here, Lexus taking over the world only to wind up being a part of it just like every other make.

    Will the new LS make a splash? For sure. Will it put everyone else out of business? Heck naw.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    MB had to drop the price of their cars in 1999 because of price pressure, most notably from Lexus. That was before the quality took a big plunge and before the perception of the quality problems became real.

    This isn't totally correct. Mercedes dropped prices of the S-Class in 1999 (for the 2000 MY) because the previous car was seen as too big, overweight and too expensive in certain markets so they shifted direction. This had very little or nothing to do with Lexus. Lexus' LS wasn't even a factor back in 1999. That duller than dull 1995-2000 LS was barely even in S-Class price territory when the W140 S-Class was out and the 2000 S-Class with its price drop still wasn't near the price of a 1999 LS400.

    Mercedes dropping prices across the board compared to just the S-Class, happened for 1994..that was in response to Lexus and market conditions in general. The 2000 S-Class was a radical departure compared to the previous tank-like S from 1992-1999.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The only German automaker in danger of being crushed by Japan is VW. Cars like the S and 7 sell at prices where things like exchange rates dont really make that much of an impact. As long as there are people that feel that the big Germans offer an "experience" (whatever that may be) that Lexus cant match, they will continue to buy M-B and BMW. I think the '07 LS460 is going to be the best LS ever, but obviously its not a car for everyone.

    TMC may be on the verge of becoming the world's #1 automaker, but Lexus has a long way to go before becoming the #1 luxury brand.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I think VW is finally seeing the light by first admitting that the Phaeton was a mistake by dropping it, at least from the U.S. lineup.

    I think they'll be ok once everything they've got planned finally gets over here. I really don't think VW is serious enough about the U.S. market. They take their sweet time in getting products over here when they've been out in Europe for over a year. They need a cheaper base V6 Passat and some restructuring of the Passat's option packages and/or more stand alone options. Potential VW buyers are complaining about not being able to get a manual with the V6. Hello VW? VW buyers like "stick shifts". The Jetta needs a more powerful/refined base engine. Half of the Gallard's V10 my [non-permissible content removed]! It sure doesn't act or sound like it. There should 276hp "R36" versions of the Jetta, Golf and Passat. In the case of the Passat I'd turbocharge the V6 for 340hp. I don't know how they could do it with the current exchange rate, but they need to adjust prices badly. A Jetta can run over 30K now! I couldn't believe it.

    Toyota becoming #1 is just a continuation of the long nightmare GM and Ford have been living with for years. I actually feel sorry for GM somewhat now, after years of bashing them. They're just too big with too many of the same models that simply don't move the game on in any way other than creative price incentives. I'm not worried about Ford, they've proven before that when they're backed into a corner they come out swinging. Now since they've got Volvo, Land Rover and Aston up and running maybe they can concentrate more on their core brand.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I know I have often picked bones with MBs, highlighting areas I think they are short on. But as an LS owner, I'd like to highlight areas of my car I'd like to be better.

    My 1999 came into service Nov 15, 1998, a full 7 years of operation today. It has 109K miles to show for it.

    1) I've got a broken windshield that I cannot get a non-Lexus replacement for. Turns out no one makes the glass anymore, except one through Toyota. That stinks, cos its gonna cost me $700 to replace.
    2) My right tail-lamp is out. Well, 'bout time too. Just went out, so I gotta check on cost. I hope it isn't much :)
    3) My read-out says "Low washer fluid" but my washer fluid is not low. Lexus says its a bad electrical. Cost to diagnose and fix is $200. Seems like a lot for a bad fuse, imo.
    4) BTW, I hope Lexus re-design the trunk lid to open all the way all the time, instead of the two-step one. Cos I've bumped my head a few times already, and it hurts. I know, clumsy me... But I gotta have something to complain about, right ?

    Well, that's all the imperfections my car currently has. I am anxious to see the 2007 LS460, finally I can retire this baby and pass it on to my daughter. Trouble is she doesn't want the LS, so I am stuck... Get rid of it, or keep it ? What a problem to have, eh ? Anyone need a fairly well used but still reliable LS? :)
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Now please explain to me why you think a car like a LS drives better than a high-end Toyota like the Avalon because its RWD.

    Merc1, I am sure you know the answer to this. A RWD is a better driving car than a FWD car, everyone knows that already, else *most* sport sedans/coupes will be FWD, eh ? Why not drive the LS in the sport-mode and then drive the new Avalon and tell us which drives better? Maybe you'd be surprised. Many look at the LS and think it drives as it looks. You'll be plenty surprised... The LS is quite nimble for a big car. Drives real well, and steering may be a tad numb but still responsive enough. In sport mode, you get a lot more road feel (than a typical LS), and the handling is even better, all for a big full-size luxury cruiser. There is hardly any major difference b/w the S and the LS in driving and road isolation.

    Have you read the Nov C&D review on a short drive of the 2007 S500 ? Was it glowing ??? I'd say not. With a Maybach exterior, exaggerated rear wheel flares, and the BMW-interior, hmmm ! who knows how it will be received when it arrives here next spring ?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    A RWD is a better driving car than a FWD car, everyone knows that already, else *most* sport sedans/coupes will be FWD, eh ?

    The LS430 isn't a sport coupe or sports sedan, or a sporty anything. What difference does RWD make in a car like a LS430 when handling isn't a priority? There aren't any hi-hp models based on the LS that would require rwd so? I've driven the LS430 more than once now in all its "modes" and it didn't drive like anything to me. Still mushy and nothing even close to being nimble (compared to what?). Saying it is nible for it's size really isn't saying anything when larger cars in the same segment are more nimble, like the A8 or 7-Series. I'm still waiting to hear what the advantage is of the LS being rwd compared to similarly plush and isolated Avalon or ES330 when none of them have any road feel or any sense of even being on the road.

    There is hardly any major difference b/w the S and the LS in driving and road isolation.

    Careful wording here. No there isn't any "major" difference in "road isolation" as you put, but there is a difference in their driving characteristics for sure. None of the German cars in this segment isolate you completely from the road or the sound of the engine like the LS does. Nor do they have the mushy steering either.

    Have you read the Nov C&D review on a short drive of the 2007 S500 ? Was it glowing ??? I'd say not. With a Maybach exterior, exaggerated rear wheel flares, and the BMW-interior, hmmm ! who knows how it will be received when it arrives here next spring ?

    Yeah I read it. I have to ask you the same question because the review wasn't negative in the least and it was pretty good for such a short drive:

    Mercedes is hoping younger buyers will find the S-class's aggressive new shape appealing. To our eyes the fender flares are more sports car than über-Benz, but they do make room for the larger wheels that are mandatory on this type of car. This big Benz dynamically and stylistically straddles the line between the over-the-top-engineered and overweight early-'90s S-class and the svelte and stylish late-'90s version. It has enough advanced engineering and technology to make a robot blush, and it's all wrapped in stylish sheetmetal.

    Source

    Sounds like to me they haven't made their final judgement yet and there is much more to come. No need to reach for something that isn't there.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yeah, I wasnt surprised to see that GM has abandoned their "value pricing" strategy in favor of the usual heaps of incentives after the showrooms became ghost towns in October. GM has been the "Bob's discount mattress warehouse" of car companies since 2001, and that kind of consumer perception takes years to change, not one month.

    Ford is definitely in better shape, as I think one of their biggest problems was their dull as dishwater styling on products like the 500 and Freestyle. People seem to like the Fusion quite a bit. Mercury is somewhat of a mess, and Lincoln is an even bigger mess, but I think the Ford core brand will be fine.

    I'm very curious to see what Volvo is going to come up with in the next few years. Ford seems to want Volvo to compete with brands like BMW and Mercedes, and to push Jag up into the Bentley stratosphere. I'm not sure the plan for Jag is such a hot idea, but a bunch of dramatically sportier V8 powered Volvos will definitely be interesting.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    TOKYO (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp. (7203.T: Quote, Profile, Research) will begin using a cheaper and smaller hybrid system from 2008, more than doubling production of the fuel-sipping vehicles by then to 600,000 units a year, the Asahi daily reported on Wednesday....
    By making the system smaller, Toyota aims to slash the premium by half and expand its use to most of its mid-sized or larger cars, the Asahi said, without citing sources.

    link title
  • I can't believe you and ljflx think that just because the same 10-15 people post over and over in the 2007 LS thread that means something magical for the LS and doomsday for the S-Class.

    That I agree.
    Everytime I read a piece of boring crap trying to play down the best selling luxury brand, chances are it is from that same 1 person.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    That I agree.
    Everytime I read a piece of boring crap trying to play down the best selling luxury brand, chances are it is from that same 1 person.


    Which global luxury brand leader are you referring to BMW or MB? In fact there seems to be more than 1 person that plays down these two best of the best luxury marques ;)
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    I checked some pix of the Lexus LF-Sh at:
    link title

    and had to do a double-take when I opened the side-profile view (the light blue car). If you get the same page/ad I had, there is an Infiniti M ad just above the thumbnails. I pulled the Lexus profile pic below the M profile pic and noticed an odd resemblance.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    BMW or MB...two best of the best luxury marques

    You forgot to say imho.

    Funny, when anyone criticizes anything done by a German car company, that person is "downplaying" German achievement. But when a German carfan criticizes anything a Japanese company does, he is only spreading "truth".
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "I can't believe you and ljflx think that just because the same 10-15 people post over and over in the 2007 LS thread that means something magical for the LS and doomsday for the S-Class."

    I've never posted that this was an indicator of anything. But I am quite surprised that the S-class board is so dead with a new model around the corner. In fact the last post, which broke a long drought, was by someone at Edmunds raising the possibility that every S-class built since 1999 may have to be recalled. But I wouldn't discount what OAC is implying either. In 2000/2001 the new LS started to get a lot more posts as well before the 2001 intro, and the car was red hot exceeding 2001 sales goals by 40%. I think the interest in the 2007 car is far greater than the 2001 car and I fully expect this car will dominate this segment.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    It was all in jest!

    I dont think Killerbunny was referring to MB or BMW?

    I like the G35 and cant wait for the new generation ! I dont discriminate a car based on nationality.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    But I am quite surprised that the S-class board is so dead with a new model around the corner.

    So what does that prove?

    It may just mean the S drivers dont participate in these forums! The lack of attendance does not imply anything about the new S.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Doesn't prove anything. I'm just surprised because there were plenty of S-class posts - by real owners - in the past, particularly in the 2000-2003 period.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    In fact I'd state that the new S-class should have MORE interest than the new LS. Why ? The new S is the first re-design in like forever (6+ years), so why isn't there a pent-up anticipation for this car ? OTOH, the LS received a complete makeover for the 2001 release, and another face-lift for the 2004 release, yet barely 3 years later, Lexus is re-doing it all over again, and the buzz is real strong !!! Hmmmmmm...... I would have thought that the car that needs the redo the most would be getting the buzz... Maybe its that the new S really does not need a re-do afterall... Its current style is already pretty nice, and MB can only worsen not improve an already great style. Maybe they should have left it alone afterall...But with a re-styled 7, A8 and LS in the offing, it makes sense to re-do the S as well... But we'll see.
  • I have never driven one so just what does "waft" mean? An invented word that equals "mushy suspension" or something?

    It is basically a term coined by RR. It means that the car glides along effortlessly, but with a sense of control, great power and authority.


    It's funny how the eurofans nowadays make "riding on clouds" into some kind of perjorative, after Lexus started making cars that are better at offering a more quiet and serene environment for the riders.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Likewise, anytime I read anything about Lexus' domination of the world and the end of Mercedes it is usually the same folks, over and over again. Then when it doesn't happen (the latest case being the failed destruction of BMW) all you get is sales data and reliability reports.

    Who said anything about downplaying the bestselling luxury brand this time around? I surely didn't. Did you actually read before you posted? Doesn't seem like it.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    All of this thread popularity nonsense reminds me of the equally silly stuff going on about sales in the Luxury Performance Sedans thread.

    Just because one thread has a lot of activity and the others has little or no activity doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. There are hundreds of thousounds of buyers from all these luxury brands that don't even know about Edmunds' Town Hall.

    The E-Class trounces the GS in sales month after month, yet the GS thread is much more popular here.

    Just because a few people swoon over a new car and post over and over (and get duped into believing that they had an inside track from Japan) doesn't mean that a car who's thread isn't posting much won't be succesfull either.

    How much further are we going to reach with this?

    M
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    I think it has been mentioned here before, but power/performance is definitely an aspect of a high-end luxury car...

    Why is it, then, that all the Lexus fans never bring this up while they are rambling incessantly about reliability? Funny how the Lexus has the least power of any car in the class, and gets almost 100 hp less than than the BMW, yet they get the same gas mileage.

    Why don't the Lexus fans ever talk about this obvious component of luxury?
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi all,
    Doesn't anyone here remember the LS430 vs Q45 comparison a few years back? The LS430 beat the Q45 in the 0-60 test despite a 50 HP deficit. I don't know where this myth of Lexus cars being slow comes from...Even the LS430 can hit 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and have a top speed of 135 MPH (Electronically limited) The car can definitely go faster than that...My LS400 has done 135 MPH easily and had more to give!

    SV
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    but power/performance is definitely an aspect of a high-end luxury car...

    Agreed!

    Funny how the Lexus has the least power of any car in the class

    Why should I be surprised when a German carfan just arrogantly assumes that German cars perform best, without bothering to check the facts?

    750i - 360hp, 360 lb-ft, 5.8 sec 0-60
    LS430 - 278hp, 312 lb-ft, 5.9 sec
    S430 - 275hp, 295 lb-ft, 6.6 sec

    So, which brand is it again that has "the least power of any car in the class"?
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