High End Luxury Cars

dewey

The entry-level powerplant will be Volkswagen's 3.5-liter six-cylinder engine with 300 bhp.

Yawn! Zzzzzzzz!

This is nothing more than the good ole fashioned Cayenne approach: Sell a Porshe to the masses with a insignificant VW powerplant. They should just focus on the high HP Porsche engines. This insignificant VW engine will simply dilute the mystique of Porshce.(insignificant in terms of the likely size and weight of this car).

This is a dead ringer for the MB CLS. Porsche definitely used MB styling cues with this car. Not very creative or innovative IMO.

This 300hp VW powered Porsche will be driven into the dustbin of irrelevance. This car has the 928 written all over it.

tagman

Negative response to this car seems to be building momentum . . . me included. I've already given up on it.

TagMan

drfill

Yes and No.

Is it a value to have a watered-down S-Class for $75k, or a value to have a well-equipped LS LWB, with more power, for $75k?

Value is where you find it.

I certainly don't see an advantage for an S450, with less power, less integrated styling, and a higher starting price.

Lexus-intenders don't see the Mercedes S450 as a "prestigious" car, IMHO.

Prestige has little to do with Lexus-intenders. Lexus has earned great prestige in this country, and many see it as a better car, and buy, than any comparable Mercedes.

DrFill

tagman

Is it a value to have a watered-down S-Class for $75k, or a value to have a well-equipped LS LWB, with more power, for $75k?

Like you said . . . yes and no.

Watered down is your negative spin, but more realistically the vehicle will likely be very well-equipped.

Think about how the previous LS model offered less styling, handling, and performance, and hp than the previous S-Class, yet with the right "value" it was gobbled up.

So, in the same way, the S450 may, in fact, have less hp than the LS460, but still have better (according to some, but not all, of course) styling, possibly better handling, certainly more prestige (even if many claim that they don't care about that) . . . so at the right price, the same "value" seekers may decide that this S450 is the better deal, and forego the extra horsepower.

It really does depend upon the price tag and feature ratio. We will see.

Those that are Lexus-intended, as you say, will simply choose between the different LS variants, but those that are open-minded to comparison may indeed see the S450 as a worthwhile value that opens the door to a Mercedes Benz S-Class without the huge leap in price.

TagMan

syswei

Dear departed oac posted some very interesting info over here.

Commentary from the germancarfans?

lexusguy

I think it has more to do with electronic throttle programming and gear ratios than how the engine makes its torque. It's not a Honda engine. Fortunately, that kind of thing is relatively easy to change.

merc1

I don't think he understands how torque is generated. From that post the LS460's torque curve looks like this:

According to the analysis the guy presented:
2000rpm, the motor puts out 116hp/310Ibft
3000rpm, the motor puts out 197hp/340Ibft
4000rpm, the motor puts out 285hp/363Ibft (peak torque)
6400rpm (peak hp), the output is at 380-385hp/310Ibft

The S550 on the other hand develops a full 391 lb-ft of torque between 2,800 - 4,800 rpm, the LS460 needs 1600 more revs to get anywhere near that in torque output and the increments aren't much as the revs increase, again according to the stats given in that post. This is why C&D and others have stated that the LS460's smaller 4.6L V8 needs more revs to get close the 5.5L V8 in the S550 when it comes to torque output. This is another reason why Lexus went with 8 gears to keep their V8 in it's sweetspot, which is according to that post, is from about 3000-6400 rpm. This is basic engineering and nothing new, a larger engine wil develop more torque almost all of the time and a larger engine will develop more torque earlier. The two engine's torque curves don't even compare really and they aren't supposed to when you look at the difference in displacement. Now Lexus knows this too, which is why they're thrown some very clever engineering at their new V8 along with the 8-speed.

M

anthonyp

I personally hate to see Lexus value their product so high...It is a nice option to drive a very good car at a very good cost vs the German cars...Any of the cars when they get up to the lofty prices hurt when you go to sell...I guess everything is relative, but to loost the value option will hurt us all in the long run...I enjoy your postings Tony

blckislandguy

Not so fast, Dewey. Cayenne sales went from zero to 48% of all Porsche sales very quickly and helped Porsche rebound. Some Cayenne owners (yours truly, included) found they liked the much better Porsche customer service rather than what you get at a Bimmer, Audi, or Merc store and would like to move up in the brand.

Engine parentage? Given 300 HP I don't think anyone will
be complaining (except dealers of competitive brands). Afterall, 300 HP is more than the compeition offers as base engines in their sedans.

This car should be very attractive to anyone looking at an optioned (Aren't they all?) 5 Series, a 4.2 powered A6, or someone of less than AARP temperment who is looking at
an E Class. Very attractive because it is going to be better made, with better handling, from a better dealer body, and more exclusive.

drfill

But this has been a long time comin'. There's only so long you can eat "Humble Pie".

Lexus, and in particular the LS, deserves, and needs, to move in the pantheon of luxury cars in stature and prestige, relative to other vehicles without anything approaching it's level of distinction/accomplishment.

The LS430 will (has) all the appeal of a Bee Gees T-shirt, but it is time to lose your innocence, and establish true dominance!

Look at it this way. The LS is turning 17 this month! It's ready to leave the nest and build it's own family of supercars, namely Hybrids, LWD, and special options that will change the industry (again).

If you still want to appreciate the LS, pre-revolutionary redesign, grab a 1998-2000 copy for somewhere around $25k, and enjoy!

The Future is Here!

DrFill

drfill

Didn't say the S450 wouldn't be well-equipped, but I did say watered-down.

I, and Merc, would like to see the day when Mercedes could play the "Value card" vs. Lexus!

That would be one sweet day!

The LS has a Full House of cards to play now. I see a lot of hands on the table, and I don't see anyone beating a Full House...... :sick:

DrFill

tagman

I, and Merc, would like to see the day when Mercedes could play the "Value card" vs. Lexus!

We will ALL be glad then!!

And, Merc may be about to witness a 4-door S-Class convertible early next year . . . so anything is possible.

Seriously though, I have previously posted a more detailed explanation of the potential for the S450 to be considered a "value", even as compared to the LS460L. Don't forget that the S-Class is already a LWB vehicle, while the LS460L is a price leap well above the LS460 std wheelbase. So, be sure you are comparing apples to apples when it comes to which wheelbase model we are comparing here.

Add to that the S-Class's styling and prestige, as well as the MB engineering and driving dynamics that many people actually prefer (yes, Doc, it's true), and then take a look at the price difference between an S450 and an LS460L.

I will say this until I see otherwise . . . there is a strong potential here for the S450 to be a "value" in this arena, but we will not know this until we know the actual price/feature ratio and how it all stacks up against the LS460L.

In any event, be prepared for the old switch-a-roo as we might see the S450 become
the "value" vehicle compared to the LS460L.

Don't forget, Doc, that you were supportive of Lexus LS price hikes. I warned you that "value" was important. So, if Lexus doesn't keep those prices reasonable, Mercedes Benz will benefit, and I assure you I won't be too upset about it.

TagMan

merc1

Afterall, 300 HP is more than the compeition offers as base engines in their sedans.

Not really, if the competition for this (which it is not the LPS segment) car is the CLS, Quattroporte, and the Aston-Martin Rapide. A 300hp V6 is going to seem both short on cylinders and hp compared to the V8s and V12s in those cars.

M

merc1

Tag, even if Mercedes did price the S450 to compete against the LS460L head on, the SWB LS460 will still be cheaper, and that is all some will see here. I personally don't want to see Mercedes even try to position the S450 as a value compared to any LS model, only as a slightly higher priced alternative vs a much higher priced alternative. The S450 isn't going to come in much under 76-77K IMO and that will still give Lexus some price advantage, but not as much as they've had in past if all the price speculation on the LS board is to be believed.

I'm sure both companies are waiting to see what the other does, but Lexus has to play their hand first since the S-Class went on sale months ago and MB is in no hurry to bring over the S450 and the LS460 goes on sell in less than a month.

I can see the S450 arriving next spring/summer as a 2008 model along with a S320 Bluetec or CDI.

M

tagman

I personally don't want to see Mercedes even try to position the S450 as a value compared to any LS model, only as a slightly higher priced alternative vs a much higher priced alternative.

I don't want to get into a heavy "value" discussion, but please be aware that "value", at least as I am using the word, does not mean "cheaper" or "cut-rate".

I use the word very specifically to mean that the product is perceived to be very much worth the price tag attached, almost to the point of getting more than one's money's worth, particularly in comparison to other products that warrant comparison.

An S450 priced moderately higher than an LS460L and significantly lower than an S550 would indeed be a "value".

An S-BlueTec will offer additional logical and sensible S-Class alternatives to the LS as well.

I, for one, still see the S-Class as the true benchmark, and I also believe that those in the buying public that have not pre-disposed themselves to a "Lexus no matter what", will realize the merits of the S-Class. It is a sensational vehicle, and an S450 will be a terrific contender to the LS460, and will be a preferable car to many of those that look at both with an open mind.

I have tremendous confidence in the S-Class as it compares to the LS460, and the addition of the S450 brings it closer to those whose financial limits might not allow for the S550.

The new LS460 is a terrific vehicle, I am clear about that, and it deserves serious respect, but the Mercedes Benz S-Class quite simply still has the blue ribbon, IMO.

TagMan

lexusguy

Wow, talk about a shameless copy. The interior design of the new Mondeo is an almost exact replica of a Benz ML or GL.

merc1

Well you know Tag, I can't argue with any of that!

I understand your definition of value and I agree, but cheaper is all that some will see which was my point about the SWB LS460. And of course for the pending LS460 sales rhetoric.

M

designman

Gawd I hope Mercedes doesn't build this thing. I think the press has this confused with a future Maybach or a CL Cabriolet, but a S550 Cabriolet, NEVER!!!!

Hmm... why? I think an S cab would be s-o-o cool.

merc1

I know you don't think that. You, dewey and tag are just trying to see how much S Cabrio taunting I can take...lol!

M

designman

This is nothing more than the good ole fashioned Cayenne approach: Sell a Porshe to the masses with a insignificant VW powerplant.

Actually, I like the idea. For one thing it tells us that Panamera will be attainable, and there will be enough to choose from between the low and high end.

This is a dead ringer for the MB CLS. Porsche definitely used MB styling cues with this car. Not very creative or innovative IMO.

I don't expect the car to be drop-dead gorgeous, rather, it just needs that come-hither minimal, functional Porsche appeal. As far as the CLS thing, it was MB who ripped off the headlamp design. This car is not going to resemble the CLS.

designman

I'm serious. I like the old Lincoln convertible and even though the Eldorados and Deville cabs were two door, they had that Texas-big panache to them... pink Cadillac sass 'n swagger 'n stuff. Yep, I like that.

merc1

Well now that you mention those names I know I'm definitely against the idea of such a car from Mercedes-Benz!!!

M

designman

Aww shucks Merc, stop being a fuddy duddy. ;-) Mercedes is probably the one brand that carries the torch of swagger that the old Caddies had in their day. Bring on that drop-top S!!

merc1

Bring on that drop-top S!!

Quick someone call 911!

M

designman

LOL! ;-)

designman

Another thing... an S cab will be very collectible down the road.

tagman

Another thing... an S cab will be very collectible down the road.

I agree.

And . . . It would be a sure bet in Florida and out here in California.

Won't be inexpensive. Expect it to cost lots of $$$$.

TagMan

blkhemi

The S8 is on the ship!!! I got confirmation just about 3hrs ago that the ship will be pilling out at 5am our time tomorrow and dock 9/29(between stops). The car will sit on the dock for a day and then be taken to the dealer for prep for 2 days. Then on Oct. 2, it will be all mine!!!

I drove an early-production model at an Audi Invitational in Palm Beach back in the spring, and this is what sold me on the car. It doesn't bite corners like a QP or 760i Sport does, nor does it have the blistering accel like an S55/S65, but it is the best example of the "complete" sports sedan on the road today, hands down. The ride still remains Audi plush/firm, and the steering/braking is nothing short of astonishing.

All in all, I'm very satisfied with the purchase.

blkhemi

It seems now that the Porsche execs wouldn't green light the car unless a more "affordable" variant was part of the deal.

This is nothing new. MB has the CLS350 in Europe that they're thinking of sending to our shores. The A7 will have a 320hp 3.6L V-6 standard hooked up to a DSG, with the next gen 430hp 4.4L(enlarged 4.2) and 550hp Lambo V10 as optional equipment. Both cars are said to be developed side-by-side altho the Porsche will have the requiste "supercar" macho gear, much like the Cayenne more so than the Q7/Toureag.

It's just pure marketing sense. In order to stay competitive, a car company can't offer only one maybe two powerplants. Take Porsche itself for example. The company has no fewer than 7 iterations of the coveted 911. The base Cayman is on the way here. The 6 variants of the Cayenne should be some sort of signal that this company is definetely willing to offer it's cars with choiced beyond anyone's imagination.

Altho you do have the occassional car, like the LS460, that says this is what we have, take it or leave it. But more than usual, choices are what's best to the consumer.

designman

Another reason low-end versions are offered is because they have to meet fleet emissions and fuel consumption regulations.

Another thing to consider is that all Porsches, even Cayenne, are considered the best, benchmarks with regard to road-handling performance. Porsche is not Santa Claus when it comes to horsepower, they never were. But the 911 and Boxster/Cayman are typically described as brilliant, pure driver's cars. We can expect the same of Panamera. It will have to be measured against the likes of Quattroporte, M5 and Rapide. I don't expect Porsche to play second fiddle with handling. It's their territory and their engineers are said to be among the best in the business.

tagman

Another thing to consider is that all Porsches, even Cayenne, are considered the best, benchmarks with regard to road-handling performance.

Maybe so . . . but let's look at something for a moment.

The Cayman version of the Boxster has turned out to be the true star, simply because the engine is in the right position for better balance.

What to do then? Should Porsche deny the Cayman its rightful potential due to the seniority of the 911?

This is no easy transition. The Cayman with added horsepower and the feet to handle it could ultimately surpass Porsche's own 911, IMO.

And look at the price difference between the Cayman and the 911. There is little justification any more. Has the 911 gotten too pricey, or is the Cayman a bargain? Either way, it's out of whack, IMO, although I believe that the 911 has finally gotten overpriced.

The Cayenne? Benchmark maybe, but needs to be better, IMO.

One problem I see with the Panamera, which dissapoints me because I've had my eye on it for quite some time, is that it will not look extraordinary. It's already a foregone conclusion that it's appearance will not be shockingly beautiful, as I think it could and should be.

In addition, by the time the upper end powertrain is offered, which would be the only real way to get the car to begin with, I suspect that the price for it will be through the roof. Rear seat room could be marginal, and when considering the huge price tag, I can't help but wonder how this is all going to be successful.

While I am admittedly skeptical, I truly hope that the Panamera surprises all of us with gorgeous body lines, a comfortable interior for four passengers, legendary Porsche performance, and a reasonable price. In other words, I hope it sets the benchmark that you speak of, but somehow I don't yet see it on this one. But it is still very early.

I anxiously await tremendous power for the Cayman so that one day it can "be all that it can be". Now THAT will be a new benchmark, IMO.

TagMan

designman

The Cayman version of the Boxster has turned out to be the true star, simply because the engine is in the right position for better balance.

Cayman and Boxster engines are in the same position and balance is identical at 45/55 front/rear. You must be talking about both Boxster and Cayman as compared with the 911 Carrera which is 38/62. The Boxster S has garnered impeccable reviews ever since its launch in 2000, punctuated by its beating a Ferrari Enzo in the slalom. The fact that the Cayman S outperforms the Boxster S is of no real consequence to the latter since one is a coupe and the other a roadster, two versions of the same car.

And look at the price difference between the Cayman and the 911. There is little justification any more. Has the 911 gotten too pricey, or is the Cayman a bargain? Either way, it's out of whack…

Not really. Porsche has always charged for horsepower as diamonds are charged by the karat. On top of that there is a premium for the 911 badge but it’s not that much, more if you consider that the 911 probably costs less to make. But power is really the price unit.

One problem I see with the Panamera, which dissapoints me because I've had my eye on it for quite some time, is that it will not look extraordinary. It's already a foregone conclusion that it's appearance will not be shockingly beautiful, as I think it could and should be.

Well your opinion of the styling is your prerogative but it’s too early to gauge. You can’t go by the official Porsche sketch and you can’t go by the spy shots of the mule. It’s just too early to be commenting on a model that will be released for the 2010 model year. We’re very early in the game. Also, if you are a Mercedes person, this is a strong indication of your preferences. They are too different. Just as there are 911 people and SL people and never the twain shall meet, I expect the Panamera and CLS to be the same type of deal. There is going to be a feral Porsche-ness about it.

I anxiously await tremendous power for the Cayman so that one day it can "be all that it can be". Now THAT will be a new benchmark, IMO.

This is a common lament among Porsche enthusiasts. What we forget is that there is a lot to choose from among 911’s and that “all it can be” is something that has much greater significance among track rats. The 911 Turbo and C4s are closer to that ideal with balance and is plenty of car for average enthusiasts who don’t track their cars. Furthermore, when and if the mid-engine Porsches are “all they can be”, they will be priced in the league of 911s—there is no way around it.

Now I could be wrong about my assessment of Panamera, after all, Porsche has learned how to become more profitable. This can preclude fulfillment of product expectations among the cognoscenti. But that company has some big egos, a big heritage, and has lived up to its reputation. Could it bomb? Sure. Just as Lexus reliability can also go south. But Lexus is Lexus and Porsche is Porsche. As the legend goes, excellence is expected and accordingly I remain optimistic until convinced otherwise.

In the meantime, what about that Elise? I would like to hear about it. The Lotus section is dead. Could you spare a word or two, especially after all of the talk about Fords, GM and whatnot around here recently?

;-)

tagman

Nice reply thank you.

I know that the Cayman is a coupe version of the Boxster, and that they are essentially the same car. Even though this is the case, the Cayman has an important advantage. Not being a ragtop, it is much more rigid and stable. I truly loved my original Boxster, although I was envious when the S came out, because the original lacked power.

Also, yes I agree that additional ponies from Porsche have traditionally come at an expected premium.

I dearly miss my air-cooled 911 sometimes, though, even if it did not perform up to today's water-cooled powerplants.

I know it is early on the Panamera, as I posted, but it is difficult to avoid forming early opinions as information leaks out. I think part of the problem for me is that I have had very big expectations of the Panamera. After all, it is a beloved Porsche. But as I indicated, the early stuff just isn't getting my blood going yet. We'll have to wait and see.

Thanks for asking about the Elise. I just got an invitation to a high performance driving event at Infineon Raceway (Sears Point) from the Lotus/Lamborghini dealer that I purchased it from. My schedule looks like there could be a conflict, but I've been told that there will be additional invitations over time. Sounds like a blast.

The Elise Sport is so much fun to drive. Just raw fun. I've had it up to about 130 mph so far, and I've pushed some corners real hard. I still have not truly discovered the cornering limits yet. It just takes turns like glue. That's really where this Lotus shines, IMO . . . in the turns.

No real problems to speak of, although I experienced a slight rear brake shutter when cold recently. I'm not sure it is important, but I will mention it to the dealer anyway.

Otherwise, the Toyota powerplant spins like a top, and does not want to stop.

I let one of my good friends drive it, and he was yelling "yahoo" when we were done. He then truly stopped his deal on his second 911 and bought the exact same car as mine, the Limited Elise Sport. His is car number 43. Mine is number 5 (out of 50 worldwide). He traded in his first 911, which he was originally going to trade-in on his next 911. Our cars look like twins. True story.

Here's my car (from Edmunds pics):



BTW, it looks like Lotus is about to release some new magic soon.



Here's the article, too:

link title

Regards,

TagMan

cxvargas

Well, the new Mondeo was mainly designed in Cologne, Germany and even thou the interior takes form MB I guess this car would make a great addition to Mercury as an entry level luxury brand of Lincoln.

designman

That’s quite a story with your friend canceling his 911 order. Now I’m psyched to go test drive it. I am thinking about replacing my 02 Boxster S and am not sure what I want. Leading a healthy list is an 07 Boxster S but the others are close behind. When the Elise first came over here, just sitting in one talked me out of the test drive in addition to listening to other experiences of dual Porsche/Elise owners, but now you have stoked my curiosity again. Of course the question is what my tolerance could be for that extreme.

tagman

D-man, The Elise is a bit extreme, no doubt, but it largely depends upon your needs . . . if you need a more comfy and civilized vehicle that still provides plenty of exhileration, it is hard to beat the Boxster/Cayman. And the price is still appropriate for those models, IMO.

I am always confident to recommend a Porsche to someone, but to recommend the Elise . . . well, it really has to be a very personal decision that comes with a different set of pros and cons. You really have to buy it for all that it gives, and be willing to overlook some of the inconveniences.

Depending upon your situation, you also may have to consider your passenger.

Anyway, test drive it where you are allowed to really push it hard.

You'll have fun anyway, and you'll understand the vehicle, whether or not you purchase one.

If you want or need to go for the safer bet, it is almost impossible to go wrong with the Porsche.

Keep me posted, as I'd really like to hear about your experience if you drive one, and drive it hard. And if you have any specific questions about the Elise, there's a good chance I can answer or at least point you in the right direction for the answer.

TagMan

designman

Thanks. I'll let you know what develops.

blckislandguy

Right you are. I was focusing on a "base" Panamerica competing with a 5 Series/E Class etc and I'm now not sure that there will be a "base" Panamerica for around 60K. A sales guy at the Providence (RI) Porsche dealer thinks the price point will be around 125K and include V10 power.

syswei

Honda....announced plans to launch in the U.S. by 2009 a sedan -- probably a Honda Accord -- powered by a "super clean," four-cylinder diesel system....

Honda said the system, unveiled over the weekend at the company's Tochigi technical center north of Tokyo, is as clean as the most advanced gasoline engines. They expect it to meet the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's tough Tier II Bin 5 diesel-emission regulations, as well as even more-stringent standards for California. That would mean Honda vehicles equipped with the new system could be sold in all 50 U.S. states.

....Honda's system uses a newly designed catalytic converter with a two-layer structure. One layer absorbs NOx from the exhaust gas and converts some of it into ammonia. The other layer uses that ammonia in a chemical reaction that turns the remaining NOx into harmless nitrogen.

This means the Honda system doesn't need a big, separate tank for urea, making the system simpler and more compact. In addition, the user won't have to top up the system with urea to make the engine run properly.

--WSJ

tagman

I'll consider that Honda's newly developed catalytic converter is patented, and there might be licensing agreements in order for others to use it.

It is the solution needed to satisfy the urea issue.

Thanks, syswei, for the info.

TagMan

dewey

Cayenne sales went from zero to 48% of all Porsche sales very quickly and helped Porsche rebound. Some Cayenne owners (yours truly, included) found they liked the much better Porsche customer service rather than what you get at a Bimmer, Audi, or Merc store and would like to move up in the brand.

Cant argue with that. Porsche has done well for itself in the SUV market.

But I am talking about a Porsche car. This VW-Porsche sharing idea brings back a odious chapter of Porsche history that best remains forgotten:

The idea for the 914 originated in the mid-sixties, when the presidents of VW and Porsche collaborated on an idea to produce a new sports car for each of their companies. Volkswagen wanted a new, sportier model to replace the Karmann-Ghia and Porsche would also use the car, but with all the components coming from the 911 series.

VW would take 914 bodies and finish them as 914/4s, and Porsche would take their portion of the body shells, and build 914/6s. When sold in North America, however, all 914s would be considered Porsches.

dewey

Actually, I like the idea. For one thing it tells us that Panamera will be attainable, and there will be enough to choose from between the low and high end.

Are Porsches suppose to be attainable?

No, not really! Not if it involves a Porsche that will be significantly underpowered to the competition. Underpowered is OK, but significantly underpowered is not OK.

The BMW 530i with 225HP two years ago was not able to compete in comparision drive tests. The same will happen with a 300HP Panamera if it is suppose to compete with far more powerful HELM models.

dewey

Based on looks alone it is best to wait two more years for the new Elise. Patience in this case is a virtue.

tagman

Based on looks alone it is best to wait two more years for the new Elise. Patience in this case is a virtue.

Dewey - That is NOT the next Elise coming in two years. It is the new Lotus Esprit, which is code-named MSC, for mid-engined supercar, with a price tag of at least twice that of an Elise, maybe even three times as much, somewhere north of $130,000. It is rumored to offer unprecedented off-the-chart performance. We'll see.

The Elise will undergo a different set of changes next year most likely as an '08 model, as a result of the end of its current exemptions. The Elise will therefore most likely get a little larger. If the larger '08 turns out to be incredibly better than my '06, the answer could always be a trade-in at some reasonable point.

But for now, the Elise Sport is the Lotus to have, so until that changes, that's where I'll get my kicks.

I agree with you that the upcoming Esprit is a real looker. It has a bit of Lambo in it, IMO, but regardless, it is beautiful and slick.

TagMan

merc1

Well today was the day, I got to drive the LS460L, didn't even bother with the SWB LS460. I also drove the GS450h, IS350, SC430 and GS350.

IS350 - Easily my favorite Lexus. Powerful, snug, pretty good looking, and fast as hell. I can see why there are complaints about rear seat room though. While fast it still isn't as buttoned down as the last 3-Series I drove. I like the interior and the whole layout and presentation of this Lexus more than any other. I tried to scrub the tires off the IS350 trhough the slalom and I could swear the car was panting after I got out...! This year there were no competitor cars from BMW or Mercedes to compare to the IS or GS. Would have really liked to drive a 335i Sedan to compare, but they aren't out just yet. Not that it matters to me much, but the IS350 is crying out for a real sports suspension and true manual to exploit all that power. The new 335i and G35 still don't have a true competitor from Lexus in the IS350 for the hard core guys.

GS350 - This model has really been invorgorated, so much so it renders the GS430 so pointless as to where there was no GS430 at the event. It feels as fast as the GS430 I drove last year, other than that everything else is the same. No E-Class or 5-Series there to compare to this year. A GS460 will arrive in Jan-Feb 07' as 2008 model. Per the reps this was done to ensure the LS460 doesn't have anything in-house to compete with.

GS450h - A surprise, very powerful. There was a subtle clicking/beeping when you really got down on the power, kinda like an alert as to why the hybrid system kicked in/switched off. The course they had allowed you to floor both the IS and GS and of course I did. You do feel the torque kick in once you've taken off, almost like a turbocharged car. Overall though the power delivery is just as seamless as in other Lexus, you really aren't aware that so much is going on underneath. Engineering, engineering, engineering.

SC430 - Not as much of a barge as I expected, then again they had a different handling/driving course for the SC, RX and ES. Nice interior for sure, but the cowl shake is noticeable and the rear seats are just for decoration. This is a 2-door LS430, not a competitor to SL or XK.

LS460L - I only drove the LS460L which had the air suspension which I adjusted to the stiffest setting. While better handling than the outgoing LS430, it doesn't handle as well as the S550 or 750i that were on hand. The roll is still there, but the brakes are stronger, as is the acceleration. There might be 8 gears working underneath but you'd never know it by the seamless power delivery. Not quite as much of a shove in the back as the S550 delivers off the line, but you'll have to be paying close attention to notice any real difference. Yes the tranny does have drop some gears, but it is invisible to the driver so the point is moot. The car has the same smooth/quiet ride as the previous car, but with a lot more room, especially in the rear seat area. The reps were saying 65K for the SWB LS460 and about 75-78K for the LS460L. The LS600hL will check in around 90K, per our conversation. Pricing comes out in 10 days for the 460 models. Very impressive car to say the least about it. The SWB version looks a little unbalanced as in the test track pic below, too stubby.

The sole competitor I drove at this year's event:

S550 - Right away you notice a heavier, sturdier feel compared to the LS460 which is expected for a German car. Acceleration is blistering with a little more shove in the back than the LS460L, and the handling is tighter with less roll than the LS460L, but other than these few items these cars are pretty evenly matched in the few other ways I could examine them during such a short period of time. None of the S550s at the event were equiped with ABC, only Airmatic in the sportiest setting.

750i - didn't bother to drive it.

A few pics, the LS460:





My favorite Lexus, the IS350:





The test track:



cont....

merc1

The SC430:



The GS450h:



Notice the chrome slats in the wheels in the second pic, nice touch.

The rest of the range:



The RX350, LX470 and GX470:



Overall a great day to be a Japanese luxury car fan or car fanatic in general, and a learning experience. The Lexus folks are very knowledgeable about their cars at these events and the food was outstanding. They can loose the spa and other nonsense though. Not sure why, but the only competitors that were there were the 750i and S550, no E's and 5's or 3's to compare to the other Lexi. The IS350 is crying out for a better tuned suspension and true manual, until then the 335i and G35 still don't have a competitor in the IS350 when it comes to the hard core guys on the ELLPS board.

M

lexusguy

Easily my favorite Lexus. Powerful, snug, pretty good looking, and fast as hell.

The IS is a sharp looking car, especially with those wheels. I think the shape of the rear doors is somewhat akward though. Wouldn't be an issue in black.

merc1

You mean the metal part at the back of the rear door that reaches upwared here?



Yeah that is one of those little design details that should have been better resolved, but at least it isn't black plastic.

M

lexusguy

The new G I think looks better in some ways, worse in others. I need to see it in person. The last G I thought was a bit akward when it launched, but I ended up really liking the car.

merc1

Yeah it may be, I'd have to see it in person also. Though with the G, the Coupe is where the action is for me. Truthfully I don't care much for 4-door cars and if there is a coupe or convertible version I'll always go that route. I've seen the new 335i Coupe on the road a few times now and there is no way I'd take a 335i sedan over the coupe. I can't wait to see the new G35 Coupe, if it is anything like that concept they've got another winner on their hands. I notice the G and IS are wearing nearly the same shoes!

M