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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • Tiag:

    So we have some area's of agreement...Lexus LS does have Stability Cokntrol (which can be turned on and off, by the way, I am not sure how the mercedes one works) and Telematrics....

    I don't think this board is for the make up of the IS it is for high end Luxury Cars..So I will leave that alone.

    Mercedes has airbags that come out of the rear seats ...Goodie...Mine only protect your head..but even with your seat belt on you could bump you torso against the door..Hmmmm

    Since Lexus is extremely Profitable and Mercedes is hanging on by finger nails and toe nails...and since my LS has generally the same options as the higher end Mercedes.. Maybe Mercedes should take some options out of their car ...to be more competitive...

    I can think of All wheel drive (will be in LS in 07)that Mercedes has and the LS doesn't... specifically what other Options would Mercedes have that I am missing out on.

    When Lexus goes Hybred in the 07 LS ...Will their having that major feature make Mercedes a second rate car?
  • tiag:

    Actually I think Lexus costs less Loaded vrs Base.speaking only LS vrs S
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Merc,
    The poster before attempts to malign the Lexus name without any proof. The only thing those links indicated was that the Lexus performs MARGINALLY worse in rear end crashes, which the tester admits usually aren't serious.

    Now does Marginal=shoddy and unsafe? I don't think so...You'd think the Press would jump all over Lexus if that were true..Having been in an accident with my LS400 I know none of what these ridiculous allegations are true..

    The Government results don't show what he's saying. You're talking about a marginal difference here. What I am saying is that if you all want to harp on about innovation, I can harp on about reliability. With the exception of those few sentences, I responded quite directly.

    None of you acknowledge that being first in innovation isn't enough to generate profits. Prestige does not equal profits as clearly shown in the MB case. You fail to see the point that no one cares WHO built the thing first.. This is the point you all miss repeatedly.

    Despite being 15K cheaper, Lexus makes MORE money on the LS than Mercedes does on the S...What part of that don't you understand? You all seem to think Pricier=Better..Anytime someone attempts to slam Lexus I point at the profits they make. You can't argue with that kind of success..It's like putting down Tom Brady..Oh but wait, he's got Three Super Bowl rings.

    My Airbus vs Boeing argument was to illustrate that even though marginal differences in safety features exist, the airlines have not hesitated to fly them, despite the potential liability lawsuits if it was "unsafe.."

    The previous poster would have you believe we're comparing a Tank (MB) vs a go-cart (Lexus) When you use words like "Unsafe, and Shoddy engineering" that is what you are implying..In reality it seems to be a marginal difference at best. If it were a real issue, it would show up in all crash tests. It's funny, even the German loving car magazines have NEVER raised this point..The only category where the LS is slammed is dynamics and styling..

    Have you read the posts of former BMW owners in the LS forum? They don't think the difference (dynamics) between the 7 series and LS are night and day..You can quote all these pointless performance statistics, but are they indicative of real world use? Of course not! How many people race their high end cars on Tracks? This sort of data is meant for BS sessions and nothing more. Lexus owners love JDP, CR, and resale value stats because they bear the real world aspects of owning the car.

    SV
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "The SL just beats the SC430 to a pulp by all accounts outside of a CR survey so it would probably outsell the SC430 at any price"

    Aha... I couldn't have said it any better than you just did. If the SL is a much better car than the SC, does the higher price of the SL deter its sales ? Nope. See, we do agree....

    So let us extrapolate. If the S430/500 are better cars than the LS430, regardless of their higher prices, would they not sell better COMBINED than a single engined Lexus LS430 ? But we all know the reverse is the case, right ? So, it must tell you something about the incredible car the LS430 is. That it can single-handedly BEAT all S-class cars COMBINED in units sold. The LS, whether you'd like to admit it or not, is the most popular, most DESIRED mainstream full-size luxury car money can buy. Its higher sales bears this point out. If the MBs were $20K, $30K better (as currently priced), they should clobber the LS in sales.

    So, the sales numbers tell me that S-class cars are overpriced, and their cache brand can no longer support the price premium placed on them.

    The real irony of all this is that the high MSRP of S-class (430/500) is due primarily to an inefficient and high-cost MB production system. OTOH, Lexus can price their car right, generate more sales, and make the most profit/unit because they have the world's best production system. It is that simple.
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    "As tought in logic class, any If...then... statement is invalid and meaningless as soon as the if part becomes untrue"

    Invalid perhaps, but not meaningless. The point of the question is to narrow down the issues of contention. The fact is, given the hypothetical, and based on past comments, I would think SV, OAC, LJFLX and maybe some others would likely choose the S over a LS if reliability and value were not issues. So the corollary to this is that we probably all agree with MERC1, TIAG_M5, etc. on the S's plusses of driving dynamics, styling, prestige, safety, etc.

    So it really comes down to how much weight is given to the LS's reliability and value. For the Lexus aficionados (including me), those factors are so basic to the decision that they outweigh the (slight) positives of the S on the other issues.

    Sometimes in the heat of discussion, we lose sight of the obvious. But note that it is rare to see someone argue here that the LS is safer than the S, or has better driving dynamics, or has more prestige. Nor do you see many people saying the S is really more reliable than the LS, or that its electronics are better, or that you get more bang for your buck in the S. That disagreement may be true in comparing the traits of other cars, but not these two. We just disagree about how to weigh the importance of the different factors, not which car possesses which dominant trait.

    That's why this battle can never be won, nor can anyone be swayed to one side or the other. We in fact probably all agree on the objective factors, we just disagree on their relative importance.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
  • hi guys,

    a lot of great posts!
    about 2 years ago there were crash test
    photos of the S class on a thread over
    at MBworld. i found the thread but the
    photos could not be viewed. I've asked
    the moderator to repost them so i can post
    a link for everyone to view. let me say
    this....when you see how MB tested the
    S class you will be AMAZED! they use a
    wedged shape battering ram. they then slam
    it into the side of the car. hopefully
    the photos will be reposted soon. i can
    say this....if i had to be strapped
    into either an LS430 or S Class like a crash test
    dummy.....i would without question
    be belted into the S.

    what i feel has been lost in much of the
    discussion considering safety is this....why
    doesn't Lexus invest more time and money
    in this area? if they want to be the worlds
    number one luxury automaker .....wouldn't "safety first"
    be the cornerstone of their philosophy? this is
    but another reason that Lexus is not on the same level as the German automakers.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    On innovation. Now you're back to the IMPORTANCE of innovations, rather than their sheer number. My point here is that hybrid tech trumps anything else MB has innovated in the last 15 years. Why? Because it is probably the only new technology to come along in the last 15 years (probably longer) that SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVES BOTH FUEL ECONOMY AND SHEER PERFORMANCE. The fuel savings are a societal and environmental good. And, through reduced emissions, fuel economy ultimately might save more lives than any one or even several safety innovations. While the performance improvement is something any germancarfan really should appreciate.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Succint and to the point.

    Spoken like an attorney....Not that you are one, eh ?

    :)
  • That's the sound of my four and five year olds discussing the features, benefits and prestige of the German makes vs. Lexus.

    Much more succinct, and as useful, as the recent discussions here. I'll check back in a few months to see if any adults have joined the discussion. (hits UNSUBSCRIBE button)
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    Thanks SYSWEI, DENALIINPA (assuming your positive comment was intended to include my post), and OAC.

    OAC, you are very observant. Yes, I am an attorney by training, but also own and manage a financial services/investment firm. And my investment philosophy tends to run to the "value" side. I guess that predilection is what moved me from a BMW/MB owner to a Lexus owner. :-)
  • den:

    have you ever seen that wedge hit a LEXUS LS in the side?...I though not...But even so you would rather be in the S...

    That seems like blind loyality to a Brand name.

    I would want to see that wedge hit a lexus before I made statements about which car I would rather be in...

    Of course I would also like to find out how many wedge shaped cars there were out there.
  • denaliinpa:

    do you know how much money and time Lexus spends on Safety testing?...Do you know what tests they use? Do you even know that safety first is NOT their first philosophy..(Lord knows it is not design)

    Do you think it makes sense to make these comments without knowing the above?

    You are right Lexus is not on the same level as the german automakers....they are on a higher level and going higher yet...With hybred technology just a year and a half away from the LS...it is going to be hard on the Germans to maintain that tiny $30 million profit at Mercedes.
  • darlinboy:

    Darn too late he left before I could thank him for his contribution.
  • xkssxkss Posts: 722
    The Lexus LS is just a rebadged Toyota Celsior. Really exciting, eh? Does Toyota test the Celsior on race tracks?

    image

    image
  • iancariancar Posts: 31
    i dunno what other people think, but if Mercedes can even make their radio or head lamp work perfectly and dependable, how can i trust it can save my life with its airbags and all other advance technologies. To be true, i love German car styles a lot, especially the CLS and S-class. But a car suppose to be served as a daily tool, not to sit at repair shop. Beside, when i spend more than 40k on a car, i will expect a car to work as the dealer promised. Luxury goods should be separated from normal products because of every little details, not giving its owners headache.
  • iancariancar Posts: 31
    In Japan, Lexus brand is not exist until late 2004 and the only model they are selling that are badged as Lexus is the redesigned 2006 GS 350/430 (start selling in Q2 - Q3 2005). Therefore,in Japan, Lexus is not in business yet. Hence, every car Toyota coporation made will badge with "Toyota". Beside the badge, Toyota Celsior cost no less than LS model in US. Other than LS430, SC430 is named Soarer and IS300 is named Atezza, both priced similar to their American counterpart. Toyota currently is selling over 64 models (cars/light trucks excluded commercial vehicles) and 18 of them is 4 door sedans. So i may not be suprised if Toyota/Lexus is developing a super sedan that is place above Celsior/LS to serve as a new flagship for homeworld lexus in the near future.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I have to admit, it is rather jolting to see the Toyota logo front and back on the LS 430. Not for the squeamish!
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    It is the same car, isn't it? It is a bone fide luxury car in the way it feels to the driver, isn't it? I just don't see the big deal. Slap whatever label on it, the merits of the car are the same. The rest is just in the buyer's head, and show how much irrationality there's involved in buying a car despite discussions like this one trying to make it look like one has very rational reasons for one's personal choice. Admit it: there is not one bad car among those discussed here. Nor a single mediocre one. Only great ones.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    xkss, denali and others, you do seem to have a fixation on the "badge" and keep using "rebadged" as an ephithet.

    I would have thought that a true auto "enthusiast" wouldn't care much about the "badge" or the origins of a car (i.e., whether it has been "rebadged"). I thought all that would matter are the physical characteristics of the car itself...handling, acceleration, styling, etc.

    Why should a true enthusiast care so much about what badge is on the hood?
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