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High End Luxury Cars

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  • Great, so are we listening to the sales leaders in our sales leading car? Point being, what sells the most is best= Lame mentality
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I had a similar situation with Designman over on the LPS board.
    He apologized as fellow raccoons should and all is well again.
    Woo! Woo!
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The XKR and 911 are very different cars. The 996 was a hoot to drive, but the interior wasnt much better than a Chevy Cavalier. I recently tested a brand new Carrera S Cabrio, which was an absoute blast. Wonderful exhaust note, and the wind was quite managable even at 120mph on the highway. The Jag is pretty embarrasing by comparison, past about 80mph you really want the top up. The interior is much better than it was previously, but there's still the typical Porsche sea of identical buttons. The total abscense of any trunk space is also a major issue.

    Ultimately, the biggest difference is that the Porsche is a sports car, and the Jag is a GT cruiser. They really arent even competitors, the Jag is more in league with the Maserati, XLR, and SC430. Any nice day with some sun and a back road, and the Jag is worth it. Porsche's arent made for bumpy PA back roads with 40mph speed limits.

    Also, I've been buying my Jag convertibles at 3 years old, much cheaper than even the base Carrera. Used Porsche's actually hold their value.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    You guys all done apologizing to each other? What did you do to each other for goodness sake? I stepped out for a little dinner tonight, and when I came back you've all been making up like you just had finished a big brawl at the local bar!

    Did I actually read someone begging for forgiveness? What forum is this? I must have signed in to the wrong website or something.

    (Actually, good to hear a little harmony around the campfire)

    BTW, lexusguy, are you into Jags? Which ones?
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    Blockisland guy - I can't agree with that decription because the people I know that own one or owned them in the past hardly fit that criteria. They fit my profile actually and simply always wanted what they thought is the best built product out there. That's also why they are so frustrated with the company because as far as they are concerned it's gone off track. I'd say the people I know also fit the profile of GaryH from everything I've seen of his posts. These are secure successful professional people or entrepenneurs and not wannabes. I do think all 3 brands, plus Audi and maybe Infinito to lesser extents have buyers who are seeking status and in that case MB probably leads the pack.

    OMG, I finally got back on the forums tonight after company left, and it has taken me forever to catch up with you guys. Some of the most vociferous bickering I've observed in my 13 months of posting here. Glad to see we seem to have calmed down a bit, apparently with only one post (at least that I noticed by the numbers) needed to be removed by Pat. Perhaps some of you should consider taking medication the next time the Edmunds server goes offline, so the juices will not be flowing so strongly when the servers come back up! :P

    Anyway, thanks Len for defending us current/former MB owners. I think you pegged my viewpoint on this nearly perfectly. Certainly anyone who puts down north of $50,000 for one of these cars has to be aware of how the cars are perceived by others. If you really don't want any attention and don't care about creature comforts, you drive an old Ford (like some really rich "old money" people I have known). You're much less likely to be carjacked in one of those! So "status" must figure into the equation for every buyer in this category, at least to some extent. But there are certainly lottery winners who when asked what they are going to do first with their windfall, say "I'm going to buy me a new Mercedes!" These folks are making a decision based almost entirely on status. On the other hand, people who test drive many of these cars, read magazines (from the auto ones to Consumer Reports), research online, etc., before making their final selection are likely putting pure status farther down in their priorities.

    But Howard, I don't consider myself a "geezer" either. Maybe a bit conservative in my personal values (after being a rabble rouser in the late '60s) and tastes, but geezer? I think even my teenage kids wouldn't call me that! But I would agree that someone looking to recapture their lost youth probably wouldn't find their satisfaction in buying an LS. But my 83 year-old uncle loves his LSes (on his third one now and I just persuaded him to wait until the '07s come out before replacing his current one), and I did have some misgivings before I bought my '05 whether it was perceived by others as a "geezer" car. However, when I went into the Lexus dealers here (around DC), I saw plenty of 40-60 year-olds doing the buying -- certainly not any older than the people looking at an S or a 7.

    The only thing I can say about MB buyers in the last few years is that apparently some of them were not heavy pre-purchase researchers. You can see some of their posts in the E- and S-Class forums here, which say something like "I'm having problems with my new MB and came here and see that other people seem to be as well. Is there a problem with the reliability of these cars?" Duh, just maybe! :sick:

    OK, enough of this. Time for this "successful, professional entrepreneur" or "geezer" (depending on who you believe) to go to bed. Good night, Gracie.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    My '00 XKR is my third Jaguar convertible. My first was a '96 XJS, followed by a '98 XK8. The '00 has been reliable enough that I've held onto it for several years. Unfortunately the all new LS and all new XK come out at the same time, tough decision.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Gary1.
    I was just having some fun. No slight intended.
    Heck-I'm not too far from geezer time myself!

    Even though I am a BMW fanatic, I am looking forward to finally seeing and driving the new LS.

    I drove the 2005 LS 3 times and had some reservations about the car-the driver's seat, steering, brakes and body lean.
    I look forward to finding out for myself whether the new LS is an improvement.

    I know it will probably be a big success stylistically as I am sure Lexus has heard the "Mercedes copycat" complaints loud and clear.

    Merc1 has already posted that he will be attending the North American International Auto Show in Detroit on January 8th for the WORLD PREMIERE unveiling of the new LS!
    I eagerly look forward to his first impressions even though Lexus will probably be keeping onlookers a "safe" distance away so they really will not be getting a good view of the interior (as they did when the GS was first revealed).
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Hpowers,

    if your priority is ride/luxury then I am sure you are going to love the new LS.

    If your priority is performance/handling then I am sure you are going to have a hard time saying farewell to your BMW 545!

    It is not a question of which car is better or worse, but which car is more suitable to your individual needs.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Point being, what sells the most is best= Lame mentality

    True, such logic is lame.

    The BMW525i is a fantastic car because it sells well? I dont think so!

    The pretensious Camrys and Highlanders with a Lexus logo are wonderful vehicles because they sell well? I dont think so!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Maybe so, but I still am eagerly anticipating the arrival of the new LS.
    I am expecting really smart styling here.
    I don't know about performance improvements, but I will be driving one when it comes out late 2006 to see for myself.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    If it's not possible to get back to talking about the CARS and MARQUES and leave the personal issues and snide remarks at the door - including our subjective "assessments" of what sort of person buys what marque - I don't really see where we have a viable topic anymore.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    by being away last night ...

    I'm here now and any post that talks about others instead of the cars or the marques is going to be (and is being) removed.

    If those posts don't stop, this discussion is history. We are not here to snipe at and insult each other nor are we here to make sweeping generalizations about any group of people.

    This discussion has a long history and has certainly had its ups and downs over the years. Lots of very worthwhile commentary has been made here and I hope it can continue.

    But we're not going to keep going down the path that so many of you can't seem to get away from.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    WOW, Could be a VERY tough decision. As you know, I'm not a big Lexus fan, only because the car hasn't excited me enough, but if the new one were more exhilerating, I'd be open-minded enough to give it a chance. From what I've seen so far, it might be very nice. I'm concerned that all the Lexus styling is starting to look the same across the model line-up. This happened to Mercedes recently, when the C, E, and S have all started to look a little too similar, except for size. Of course, the car's are very different beyond the appearance. The new S seems different enough, however.

    Anyway, the style similarity across the model lines is a concern. A flagship needs to be just that, in my opinion . . . a flagship . . . stand apart, definately in the lead.

    The all-aluminum beautiful Jag XK is a TOTALLY different beast. What would you base your choice on, since the cars are SO different?
  • Agreed. Where one lives is often the best predictor of what they will drive. You don't see many Ford F150 KR 4X4 editions in 10028.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Cars and marques. We are not talking about each other and we are not insulting people on any level. Leave the people out of your posts, please.

    If you want to talk to me, email me.

    Thank you.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Interesting comments and got me to thinking about designs through any lux brands. So the magic question - is it better for each model line to be more or less the same styling of the others (BMW, MB, Audi and where Lexus is now going)or different looks (Infiniti and where Lexus was). I for one, am not thrilled that you can drop 70k or 80k+ on car and see a smaller versioned C-class, 3-series or IS that is a fraction of the price.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    EXACTLY my question! And this question is valid across ALL the marques. Shouldn't the different models of the same marque be more distinguishable from one another?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Most likely I'll be going for the LS460. Even the new aluminum XJ is losing $20K a year in value, so there's absolutely no way I'd be dumb enough to shell out $90K+ for a brand new XKR convertible. Cut to 3 years later, when its worth $55K, then I'll bite. I dont think my '00 R will last until 2010 though, so I'll probably sell pretty soon, and wait a few years before buying another Jag.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Well therein is my whole price issue on the s-class and why I think MB pricepoints can't hold. Retentions are awful and how long are people going to be burned by paying a fortune and seeing such rapid price drops. The reliabilty issue has cut the legs out of resale prices 3 years later on many cars. The key to long term price retention is reliability.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Went to a dealer's MB, BMW, Porsche, and VW car show here today (they had the new Cayman BTW). Great looking cars but a poor turnout when I was there. 25 cars on display and maybe 7 people (inclusive) were there. Went right after church - figured many others would do the same. I was wrong.

    I wonder, if this was a Lexus, Infiniti, Acura show if the turnout would have been better?

    Maybe not too many people want to spend $60-80K on a car.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    This is a conundrum... Create a *family* style or unique styling for each model. Personally, I'd prefer the latter, but the former may be far cheaper, and may be a distinguishing facet for a brand - instant recognition regardless of trim. I don't think the IS and GS are that similar looking, and hope the LS takes a cue of its own, though within the family L-Finesse styling. Already the *prototype* 2007 LS looks good enough, and distinct enough from the new IS and GS, that I am quite happy with it.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    More likely it's too close to Christmas.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    hardly wait to see the photos of the new LS from the auto show in Detroit on January 8th.
    This seems to be an American coup.
    Does anybody know if an American auto show has ever had an International brand model world premiere before this one?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    What I'm dying to see is what they do with the interior. Cars like the A8, Quattroporte, and the new S have set the bar extremely high for interior quality and design. Lexus has their work cut out for them.
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    Do you guys know when the new LS will be on the street?
    Sept/Oct'06?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    When the new GS was released, I wasn't allowed to get close enough to see the interior.
    The car was roped off on a high platform and the doors were closed.
    Nobody from Lexus would open any of the doors.
    Exterior viewing only.

    One has to assume, the folks going to Detroit on January 8th will be disappointed if they expect to get a good view of the interior of the new LS.

    I don't get it. If you are going through the trouble of exhibiting a car, have somebody there who will open the doors upon request.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    What's going to be the appropriate inerior? Another area for subjective differences. There's the high-tech gadget and wizardry interior (more of BMW), there's the stately classic elegance (like Jag), There's the sophistication (like MB), and there's the ergonomically logical conservative, yet comfortable (like Lexus). You may not agree with my descriptions, but it's not easy to sum it up so easily. I guess my question is "what does make for a good interior in these cars nowadays?"
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi Everyone,
    I'm getting a real laugh reading some of the posts here..Bill Parcells, probably one of the best coaches in football always says, "Your Record says what you are.."
    The ultimate judge of success for any business is $$$. You can argue the whole prestige angle all you want, but it is meaningless if the carmarker isn't making money.

    I've seen plenty of posters dispute the notion that
    product X that sells more than Y is "Better." "Better" is a very subjective thing. Is a Jaguar "Better" than a Lexus? It probably has "Better" prestige, and they used to have better styling. How much would anyone wager that Jaguar would Kill to have Lexus' Sales Volume right now..
    At the end of the day, Carmarkers are in the business of making $$$. The more the Better!!!

    All this talk of Engine choices and Wheelbases makes me laugh..You can customize a Scion in probably 20 ways..Does that make it more exclusive than the LS430?

    We all know the demographics of those who own these cars, late 40 to early 50 making a decent six figure salary. Let's not kid ourselves into believing a potential LS430 owner is going to also consider a M5 or E55. Lexus clearly is not aiming for that market share, at least with the LS430..

    I've noted some of the Lexus PR targeting BMW. It's pure marketing nonsense IMHO. I think the GS was a big miss, if that is what they are trying to accomplish. Why equip the car with a Traction Control system that can't be turned off then? Why not offer a 6 spd manual? If they built Lexus cars to compete with BMW they'd alienate their existing customer base. I suspect this whole marketing campaign is mere hyperbole, much like their changing the Relentless Pursuit of Perfection to the "Passionate" Pursuit of Perfection.

    I saw this link on the web:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10387050/
    It ranks the most expensive cars to own in terms of depreciation. Notice how the list is populated with German cars.

    Someone commented that a $65K car should sell more than $85K car. This is probably true. But I did uncover a curious fact from the web. In the mid 80's Rolls Royce was advised to increase the price of their cars. They did so, and their sales increased. I think the "Snob" Factor was part of this. I do believe with a lot of these "Prestige" items Price = Better.

    I think we are NOT representative of the typical High End marque buyer. We are all passionate about our brands. Ask the typical surbuban yuppie about their 3 Series, and they probably won't know much about the technical aspects of the car. Ask a typical LS430 owner about DVD vs CD based Nav Systems and they probably wouldn't know either.

    I think some posters have hit the nail on the head when they said Image and Snobbery are prime motivators in the purchase of these cars for many. I feel this holds true for ALL the brands discussed, not just the German ones.

    SV
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