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High End Luxury Cars

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  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    > .. Lexus' focus is building a car that
    > emphasize reliability, tranquility and comfort
    > rather than styles, performance and handling ..

    The odd thing is that that was exactly the Mercedes sedan philosophy... until BMW started swaying too many yuppie buyers away from them with sportier dynamics. As BMW rose and rose, Mercedes got lured into increasingly going for the same value proposition. At some point in time, they had abandoned their traditional value proposition so much that there was a market void. Whether it was genius to identify the need and fill it, or whether that was the only philosophy that would have worked for Lexus anyhow and thus they just met a receptive market one will never know. But to me there is little doubt that Lexus did benefit from Mercedes having been lured away from their traditional approach by the more dynamic, flashier BMW challenge.

    > .. CLS is the most beautiful sedan ..

    They won't sell you one if you call it a sedan in the Merc dealership. They call them "coupes". :-)
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    No but remember the intent was to redefine the way lux cars are sold. The Lexus branding is a lot more than what many on this board seem to understand. The LS was totally engineered for the US market which is another reason why that Celsior argument is so weird and foolish. Anyone who thinks the Celsior was the model that the LS became knows nothing about Toyotas grand plans in the 1980's. The profits they make now are pure proof the plan was an immense success.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Whatever they call it, hope to have one by August.
  • like i said in my post....MB is not rebadging
    vehicles and creating a new brand. it seems to me that when anyone speaks of Lexus automobiles and the brand Lexus they mention the LS430. well guys the LS is a very nice car....but one car does not make a luxury brand. most Lexus automobiles sold in the US are re badged Toyotas. maybe they should be called Lexota's? how's that for "castigating"?

    so stripped down E classes are used as taxi cabs. that is nothing new. please explain to me
    how this diminishes MB's luxury brand appeal?

    as for the A class and smart. what really is the point? why not mention S65, Maybach? for our purposes in this discussion it is what's in the middle that seems to matter most.

    you know guys i cross shopped the LS430. so it's not like i hate Lexus! i just find it completely unbelievable that anyone could think
    Lexus to be a more substantial and luxury automobile brand than Mercedes Benz.
  • i had two K1200RS's. it seems the times are changing at BMW motorcycles. more power...more speed...less wolf in sheeps clothing!
  • it seems to me that many Mercedes Benz owners are being accused of purchasing their cars out of some need for status. maybe...maybe not. on the other hand it seems to me that some Lexus owners feel the need to identify themselves with Toyota motor companies business success. it seems that peoples needs are met in a variety of ways...even if..... some of them are completely irrational.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "so stripped down E classes are used as taxi cabs. that is nothing new. please explain to me
    how this diminishes MB's luxury brand appeal? "

    How does the LS430 being a Celsior diminish the LS430's luxury appeal?? AT least the LS430 or Celsior both come decked out with Leather, alloy wheels, power seats, etc.
  • You stated that the Phaeton was a rebadged A8. You need to do your research. The A8's chassis is completely different in both structure and materials (i.e. the Audi is all aluminum, the Phaeton is a very heavy all steel car).
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Consider me unbeliavble then. I cross shopped to and drove the S many times.

    Your slip is showing. I think many of us buy cars not brand. The latter is what Syswei's whole status issue is about. I find the LS430 a better luxurious car than the S500. The branding is irrelevant to me and on a scale of 1-100, they are both very close to the 100 benchmark. so how can you go wrong if luxury is your choice in either car. So you buy what you think suits you better and/or you have more confidence in. It's really that simple. If pure value was the cause I would never have wasted my time looking into the s-class.

    By the way - you are the one who loves the sales count exclusion. Do the taxi cabs count as lux car sales in your view?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    I think the whole world knows the two cars are essentially the same with one tweaked for sport and the other for a softer ride. VW itself made that pretty clear.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    "True prestige is valuable. This is partially why MB can sell cars at a higher price than Lexus. MB makes its profits by selling fewer cars for more money. Lexus makes its profits by selling more cars for less money. Which economic strategy is better is irrelevant because we’re only talking about why Lexus sells more cars than MB."

    Then why, oh why is MB doing so poorly profit-wise? Maybe because it's costs are about equal to it's prestige?

    This is "Social Security System Is a Disaster" class math.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    MB is so advertising.

    "Like No Other", which really means not only can we not build two alike, we don't really know what all is wrong with the one you bought. Sort of like the British cars of the 1970's.

    The hype about MB reminds me of tuning into one of those 'infomercials' on Channel 362 and a guy in a white apron is lobbing rib roasts at a coffin sized cooker while the paid audience claps and rants "Set it and forget it".

    Fortunately for the stove buyers, their electronics work.
  • lets hope the "whole world" doesn't agree with you. the differences are vast. the A8 is completely made of aluminum while the Phaeton is all steel. what in the automotive world could be any more different than that?

    as for the E class taxi cabs....good for MB.
    the more MB's on the road the better for MB.
    what's the issue? not gussied up enough for
    you guys? so all we need now is leather to be a luxury car!!! i guess this means my pickup has
    just stepped up the ladder a couple of notches!!well i would be surprised if every
    Celsior is optioned with leather in Japan.
  • many things affect an automobile manufacturers profitability.....not just car sales.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    MB is so advertising.

    A little annecdote that perhaps speaks to the snob appeal that the MB dealers try to cultivate: locally at least the salespeople refer to the E wagon as "The Station"...I guess not so subtly trying to remind people that if you can afford to drive an E wagon then you've really "arrived at your station in life".

    Reminds me of the late 80s when Apple management (in the days of John Scully) would keep refering to Macs as "Macintosh" but never ever using the word "the" in front of Macintosh. Kind of like how people refer to God, never using "the". It was as though they hoped that using the English language in that way would improve people's perceptions of the Mac. That's what you get from a marketing-driven CEO...Scully's background was Pepsi...marketing sugar-water to people.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    Well, with an MB, folks learn to hope that they've arrived at the 'Station'. More often than not, they learn that they've arrived at the Service Window.

    Scully would have done great with MB, sugar water is their forté.
  • I understood you quite well...You like MB..You saw them testing or pictures of them testing...YOU ASSUMED they are the only company in the world that tests...and being MB they must have the most rigid tests...

    I think my orginal answer was to the point
  • So ljflx:

    Celsior is actually a rebadged LS...Hmmmm
  • hfanghfang Posts: 31
    Denali- your arguments are going under faster than the titanic. Look at maxhonda's response to your comment-

    Denali- "so stripped down E classes are used as taxi cabs. that is nothing new. please explain to me
    how this diminishes MB's luxury brand appeal? "

    Maxhonda- How does the LS430 being a Celsior diminish the LS430's luxury appeal?? AT least the LS430 or Celsior both come decked out with Leather, alloy wheels, power seats, etc.

    Denali never responds to these queries and can't really see through the smoke and mirrors that is marketing, "image", and prestige. You put down the LS as a rebadged Celsior, but shouldn't you say that a juiced-up american version of the E class isn't just a "rebadged" european taxicab? And if you say more taxicabs are good for MB, then how can you diminish the value of Lexus's best seller, the RX300/RX330? And you're the type of person who would be the first to criticize Lexus if they produced an inexpensive $20K car, and then praise MB for making the A class and Smart cars. Can you really not see the contradictions in your own arguments?

    You still didn't answer my other question earlier- would your A8 be diminished somehow as a luxury sports sedan if it said VW on the hood instead of Audi? To me, there's not that much difference between Audi and Lexus. Their cars are generally based, in construction/engines/suspensions/etc, on VW's and Toyotas. The A8 deviates the most from this due to it's aluminum construction. But consider the electronics, transmission, suspension, engines, I believe it is still based in large part on the Phaeton. In any case, imho, aluminum or not, the A8 is still a beautiful, but heavy car with a brittle ride, mediocre steering, and questionable reliability, that costs about $15K more than the L430. I respect that you purchased the A8- it's a fine car- but don't start justifying it to yourself and everyone else by criticizing the LS430, because for every argument you make praising Audi and MB, there's several more that make Lexus look like a far more rational and intelligent, if not as emotional buy-
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "You put down the LS as a rebadged Celsior, but shouldn't you say that a juiced-up american version of the E class isn't just a "rebadged" european taxicab? And if you say more taxicabs are good for MB, then how can you diminish the value of Lexus's best seller, the RX300/RX330? And you're the type of person who would be the first to criticize Lexus if they produced an inexpensive $20K car, and then praise MB for making the A class and Smart cars. Can you really not see the contradictions in your own arguments?"

    Well said, indeed !

    Since we are talking of re-badged cars, the NA market C, E and S-class MBs are simply Euro Taxicabs decked out with nice amenities and then re-badged as luxury cars !!! Hehehehehehe....
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