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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You can buy whatever your money allows you. If you have not seen/heard of the put-downs on V8 Ferraris, well you have not been around real Ferrari fans long enough.

    Well I guess not because the ones that frequent the Sports Car board have nothing but praise for the F430. Its the 612 Scagletti that has the put-downs and lackluster following.

    Whatever "real" Ferrari fans thought of those older models you mentioned they must not think that of the F430 now because the car is so hot. Real Porsche folks walked away from the 944/968 and 928 models in droves, unlike the Ferrari 360 Modena and F430.

    M
  • That must be why most Ferrari's own engineers drive V12 Ferraris not V8's. Give it a few years, 360 and 430 will be just as old hat as 308. Until they put a turbo charger in like the F40, the V8's are always short on torque compared to the V12's; Ferrari turbo . . . hahaha you don't want to be the owner unless you own a mechnics garage first. Generic wanna-have sportcar fans drool after the V8's because that's the closest Ferrari that they can have.
  • I see what you are getting at. I'm not interested in S vs. 7 sales details though; both are way behind LS sales as to make the AMG addition entirely irrelevent.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well I have no idea what Ferrari's engineers drive. I'm sure that if I worked for any of these companies I'd drive the top of the line model too, but not because the less-expensive ones are crappy either.

    I doubt Ferrari owners are troubled by high maintenance bills on what was an outrageouly expensive car in the first place. If they are they then can't truly "afford" the car in the first place.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I see what you are getting at. I'm not interested in S vs. 7 sales details though; both are way behind LS sales as to make the AMG addition entirely irrelevent.

    I think I already acknowledged that no matter what either BMW or MB sells in this segment the LS430 will be #1 in sales.

    M
  • No car holds onto MSRP. Discounting around 10% from MSRP towards model end is nothing unusual. "Heavy Discounting" means discounting significantly below invoice price thanks to manufacturer subsidies.

    The only thing that differs from brand to brand is how the maker controls the supply of model at the end. Some will try to flood the market with units (even add models like MB did) and others will cut production to keep from having to resort to discounting.

    That must how Lexus achieves #1 in total sales volume: by cutting back on production. What's that world again? "Bull"?

    As to why I excused Lexus for the previous IS and GS in the later model year poor sales, well, I never took MB to task for poor hatchback sales towards the end of the run either; that's simply not their core competence. Manufacturers are allowed to experiment once in a while. At least the sales on both the previous GS ans IS were reasonably good at the beginning, unlike the current flopping R-class at MB.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    That must how Lexus achieves #1 in total sales volume: by cutting back on production. What's that world again? "Bull"?

    Once again, you're trying to link one statement to something entirely different, and the two have nothing to do with each other. What I said was that when a specific model is in decline Lexus will slow down production to keep from having to resort to heavy discounting. One model like the LS being in decline isn't going to matter to Lexus' overall sales picture this year when they have a new IS and GS to keep sales going strong. I know you know this.

    Oh the models that will keep Lexus on top this year, you know the GS that you claim whose sales aren't important to Lexus. Saying the GS or IS' sales aren't important to Lexus is the only bull I've read here lately.

    As to why I excused Lexus for the previous IS and GS in the later model year poor sales, well, I never took MB to task for poor hatchback sales towards the end of the run either; that's simply not their core competence. Manufacturers are allowed to experiment once in a while. At least the sales on both the previous GS ans IS were reasonably good at the beginning, unlike the current flopping R-class at MB.

    Problem is that the 1998 GS was NOT an experiment. It was a second generation car. Now if you can excuse the first generation IS300 for being a flop then you can excuse the R-Class also. The difference with the R-Class is that it is only a few months old, to early to know whether or not it will ever be a success.

    M
  • Most BMW engineers actually drive 3's and 5's, not 7's.

    Ferrari's are often owned by businesses for business purposes, so reasonable maintenance bill is highly desirable. The maintenance bill on the F40 turbo was a legend in itself.
  • GS and IS, even in their best years, could not begin to compare to ES and RX sales. The same can not be said of E class. That's why GS and IS in their waning years was not nearly as significant the decline of E class. BTW, the first generation GS300 was quite a different animal from the GS that we know since 1998.

    LS still outsells 7 and S even in this model wind-down that you are alleging. Also, isn't proper managing of production and maintain brand/model prestige what a luxury marque maker supposed to do? Flooding the market with cars that need heavy discount does not jive well with maintaining marque value.

    IS300 actually did quite well in the first couple model years. There was no heavy discounting in the first couple model years like what's available on R-class today, within a few short months after introduction.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    GS and IS, even in their best years, could not begin to compare to ES and RX sales. The same can not be said of E class. That's why GS and IS in their waning years was nearly as significant the decline of E class.

    It will next time they do since they GS and now IS are big contributers to Lexus' sales now. You won't be able to fall back on this excuse if and when they start to decline in a few years. The E-Class' decline was to be expected in the face of 5 freshly minted competitors! Same thing happened with the previous GS, only thing different is the timing and the numbers of new competitors in the last 12-18 months.

    We all know what one of the main reasons they LS430 outsells the rest of the class is, but of course you'll just say price doesn't matter since everyone can lease so I'm done with that.

    Also, isn't proper managing of production and maintain brand/model prestige what a luxury marque maker supposed to do? Flooding the market with cars that need heavy discount does not jive well with maintaining marque value.

    Yes it is. Finally something I can agree with. Why they added the S350 this year is beyond me since there won't be a 2007 S350 version of the new S-Class. I guess they didn't want to drop the sales title to the 7-Series in the final year of the W220 production.

    IS300 actually did quite well in the first couple model years. There was no heavy discounting in the first couple model years like what's available on R-class today, within a few short months after introduction.

    Yeah sure, quite well compared to what? Not the 3-Series or any other cars it targeted. Lexus simply deciding to let the car die instead of discounting is their choice. I think the truth of the matter is that even with discounts no one wanted the previous generation IS300. It wasn't like they held it at MSRP and settled for small sales. They discounted the thing and it still didn't move! Like I said, the verdict is still out on the R-Class, being a few months old.

    BTW, the first generation GS300 was quite a different animal from the GS that we know since 1998.

    Excuses, excuses. The 1993 GS300 is much like the 2006 GS300, slow. The only difference/addition to the GS lineup since the beginning is the addition of a V8, the GS400 and then GS430, which very few people bought during the 1998-2005 model's production run.

    M
  • I sure hope GS and IS sales numbers will become a significant contributor to Lexus sales overall. Even at half the volume of ES or RX (each close to 100k vehicles, give or take 20k), that will be like another 100k vehicles per year. 300k vehicles a year would be enough to overtake BMW global sales with sales in the US alone! Unfortunately, the GS production line is not much greater than current LS volume (about 20-30k a year), and IS is only set around 50k units per year.

    The 1gen IS300 was never targetted to overtake 3-series in sales volume; the production line was only 20k units per year, 1/3 of 3 series sales volume in the US alone. IS300 sold every car there was in the first couple years without heavy discounting. In fact, you could not get close to invoice like normal discounting until the 3-4th year. The car never had $10k+ discounts even to the end like MB is doing on many of its models

    As to the argument that LS sells more due to lower pricing, well, lump-sum $50-70k is actually much more expensive than $450/mo in cash-flow equivalence analysis, assuming disinterested bank rates and normal depreciation. It actualy would not surprise me if MB decide to bring the S350 over in the next generation; if it can make money at $450/mo with it, there will be buyer/leasers. 265hp is plenty enough for a car like that, for chauffer purpose and short business runs in town. The question is whether it can actually make money at that price point.

    GS V8 to V6 sales volume ratio is about 1:3, about the same as 330i to 325i ratio, much higher than the 1:10 ~ 1:20 ratio that AMG cars account for among MB's.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I sure hope GS and IS sales numbers will become a significant contributor to Lexus sales overall. Even at half the volume of ES or RX (each close to 100k vehicles, give or take 20k), that will be like another 100k vehicles per year. 300k vehicles a year would be enough to overtake BMW global sales with sales in the US alone! Unfortunately, the GS production line is not much greater than current LS volume (about 20-30k a year), and IS is only set around 50k units per year.

    Lots of doubletalk here, really don't understand any of it ..especially about Lexus overtaking BMW in sales worldwide with on volume in the U.S. alone? What the hell? Makes no sense at all.

    The 1gen IS300 was never targetted to overtake 3-series in sales volume; the production line was only 20k units per year, 1/3 of 3 series sales volume in the US alone. IS300 sold every car there was in the first couple years without heavy discounting. In fact, you could not get close to invoice like normal discounting until the 3-4th year. The car never had $10k+ discounts even to the end like MB is doing on many of its models

    Saying they sold every unit doesn't mean anything when they didn't bring over that many in the first place! It like saying productin is sold out when production is low to begin with. No matter how you spin it the car flopped big time. Period. The car never had 10K discounts because a car in the 30-35K segement doesn't typcially have an extra 10K than can be take off to sell it. Very disingenuous remark.

    As to the argument that LS sells more due to lower pricing, well, lump-sum $50-70k is actually much more expensive than $450/mo in cash-flow equivalence analysis, assuming disinterested bank rates and normal depreciation. It actualy would not surprise me if MB decide to bring the S350 over in the next generation; if it can make money at $450/mo with it, there will be buyer/leasers. 265hp is plenty enough for a car like that, for chauffer purpose and short business runs in town. The question is whether it can actually make money at that price point.

    Thank you for at least being consistent in your thinking and irrelevancy about everyone leasing.

    M
  • Lots of doubletalk here, really don't understand any of it really...especially about BMW overtaking BMW in sales worldwide. Makes no sense.

    Please re-read what I wrote. Lexus selling 300+k vehicles a year in the US would overtake BMW global sales with (Lexus) US sales alone! Would be a neat trick if Lexus can pull that off.

    The car never had 10K discounts because a car in the 30-35K segement doesn't typcially have an extra 10K than can be take off to sell it. Very disingenuous remark.

    You'd think so, but MB is apparently pulling the hat trick by making the C class available for $199/mo. But then again, it's not much different from discounting a $110k car by $30k.

    Thank you for at least being consistent in your thinking and irrelevancy about everyone leasing.

    I never said everyone leases. However, everyone has a strong incentive to get the best deal. MB has made the choice pretty simple. Don't blame me for comparing lease prices from MB . . . there is not a single sale offer among MB Winter Event, all leases. Obviously, MB is the one pushing leases, not me. Ignoring the best lease offer is the financial equivalent of ignoring the $30k discount on the table and insisting on paying MSRP instead . . . not relevent to real market price. The most basic accounting course would teach you how to discount present cash value of a future stream of cash.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Please re-read what I wrote. Lexus selling 300+k vehicles a year in the US would overtake BMW global sales with (Lexus) US sales alone! Would be a neat trick if Lexus can pull that off.

    Maybe its the hour because that statement still doesn't make any sense to me. BMW sells over a million units a year. :confuse:

    You'd think so, but MB is apparently pulling the hat trick by making the C class available for $199/mo. But then again, it's not much different from discounting a $110k car by $30k.

    First of all the C-Class isn't available for $199 a month! They have a lease special for $299 a month if that is what you're talking about. You just said that you never stated that everyone leases, yet all you keep harping about is lease prices. Like I said, the fact is that you aren't going to get 10K off a brand new C-Class if you're buying (not leasing) one. Period. A "stroll" to a MB dealer will teach you this.

    Don't blame me for comparing lease prices from MB . . . there is not a single sale offer among MB Winter Event, all leases.

    Like they would advertise actual "sale" price on their website or in a commercial. What a ridiculous comment. You don't think they're cutting some type of deal to buyers that actually buy compared to lease?

    No one else has a big ole "sale price" listed anywhere either, at least not the luxury brands. GM and the gang are of course doing that, but that is another story.

    M
  • Yup, that was a typo, $299, not $199 a month. . . the wee hours ;-) Not everyone leases, but for certain makes, leasing is the only number that reflects real rock bottom pricing. I don't like to lease, therefore I don't get MB at all (hence the part about not everyone leases comes in here; people make brand decisions based on financing/leasing deals all the time, otherwise why do the carmakers offer them at all). But if I were to get an MB, leasing would be the obvious choice, as indeed the overwhelming majority MB acquisitions are nowadays. "If you are buying" is akin to saying "if you are not negotiating any money of MSRP at all" when there is obvious better deal available through leasing (not an endorsement of leasing in general, just pointing out peculiar cases from time to time). Yes, there are still people who pay MSRP's (not talking about Scions), plus undercoat etc.; they are just not relevent to discussions on how much cars are fetching on the market nowadays.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well to each his own. I don't ever see myself leasing either, at least until I get much older and stop doing 20K miles a year. A lease would kill me on mileage. For people who want a new car every 3 years and don't mind always having a car note and watching mileage leasing is the way to go with any brand.

    M
  • You don't think they're cutting some type of deal to buyers that actually buy compared to lease?

    Actually it's called a "dealer incentive" on lease; not available with purchase. Speaking of GM (you mentioned it), it's one of the oldest tricks in GMAC's play book. There is currently a $3-7k "dealer incentive" on E class leases not available with purchase. That's why lease is by far the less expensive way to get MB's nowadays, and overwhelming majority transactions are carried out that way.
  • I don't want to get into the merit of leasing vs. purchase, lest we get too much heat from the host (would be justifiably so). Suffice to say that I'm willing to do either, whichever way the numbers crunch out. For some makes, from time to time, one approach makes a lot more sense than the other thanks to the manufacturer's book cooking needs ;-)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    That's why lease is by far the less expensive way to get MB's nowadays, and overwhelming majority transactions are carried out that way.

    Never said it wasn't. My point was that this doesn't work for everyone nor does everyone who gets a MB lease. I would like to see what the percentage is.

    M
  • Nor does everyone who gets an MB (or any other car) negotiates at all. Dealer is not even required to disclose the existence of "Dealer incentives" that are worth $3-7k on E, and more on S. However, to figure out how much a car is really clearing in the market place, one has to take all the incentives into account.

    As far as I know, I don't know a single person who actually purchased an MB in the last few years, and I know more than a dozen MB drivers personaly, all leases. Some of them used to be buyers; some habitual buyers switched to Lexus after MB made it obvious that the only way to get the rock bottom pricing is leasing.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    They were quoted from bdr127's post regarding 2004 sales

    LOL, 2004 figures?

    GM was the greatest growth company in the world during the 1950s.

    How about being a bit more up to date?
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    They were quoted from bdr127's post regarding 2004 sales

    LOL, 2004 figures?


    brightness was talking about people comparing the E36 to the G35 in past years, so I quoted him the 2004 sales numbers...
  • Please take it up with bdr127. Besides, how exactly does 2005 numbers reflect the last go-around between 3 and G35 again? Considering that 3 series is half way through update.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I compared the G directly to the 330i.
    I never compared the G to the 325i.
    Where are you getting this stuff from?

    I repeat: Nobody in his right mind who has compared the G to the 330i and can afford both would choose the G.
  • fennfenn Posts: 197
    I am not sure that such blanket statements are really appropriate. There are a wide variety of reasons that people may prefer one car over another, whether it is styling, interior design, comfort, price, and so many other intangibles. There is really no need to be so adament about this on such a seemingly factual basis...since it is just your own opinion.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Is the S8 going to get the DSG? If so, it would be a very interesting comparison. If its just the usual Audi tip, pass.
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    Well, it is a fact that hpowders has a slight ;) bias....
  • E46 325i was a much lower-powered car than either 330i or G35. Considering that G did not have small displacement 6, it was much more comparable to 330i in terms of performance; in fact, noticeably more powerful than E46 330i.

    There are a number of reasons why someone might choose G over 330i; e.g.: interior room, reliability, low-key PR due to professional situation, etc.. I know a few people making $2-300k+/yr picked G over 330i; both cars were well within affordability, plus some 5 and 7 models if they really love cars. Considering that a 5 series sedan can be leased in the mid-$500/mo range, half to a third the cost of a closet-sized studio apartment rental in much of the country, affordability barrier is practically non-existent for a lot of people.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Those G reasons sound more like excuses! Everybody who buys second best items will always find excuses. Otherwise all second best businesses would be out of business.

    Despite this I cant wait to see the new G and hope it will out-BMW in what BMWs do best.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    I missed where these became high end machines, could someone clue me in?? :shades:
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