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High End Luxury Cars

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  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    This is what we do know about safety:

    - Lexus doesn't innovate; Lexus is slow to adopt; Lexus has fewer features.

    - Mercedes innovates more than even Volvo; Mercedes is first to incorporate new features; Mercedes has more features than Lexus.

    So, given what we know about both Mercedes and Lexus, who has the obvious advantage? If you say Lexus, you're just being ignorant. Just accept the truth...

    The safety features in a Lexus are perfected by the Lexus engineers to be as close to perfect as possible before they go into the car

    How are they perfected by Lexus engineers? MB is one of the few that actually releases and perfects features, Lexus isn't one of them. In fact, Lexus hasn't perfected or innovated ANYTHING in the realm of safety. If you have evidence to prove otherwise, please let me know.

    ...No rushing junk into the market so they can claim #1

    Again you resort to belittle and bash MB in order to defend your beloved Lexus. Mercedes isn't rushing any "junk" to market so that they can claim number one. I think it would be safe to say a majority of the safety features that your Lexus does have (never mind the ones that it lacks) came from the good graces of Mercedes R&D. All Lexus does is leach off of the accomplishments of others... if it thinks it might lose sales that is.

    When The Stats are viewed...When fatalities are counted, when injuries are looked into...It is the Lexus that is right at the top..

    BUZZZ. Wrong again. There are no fatality stats to be counted so you're just talking out of your [non-permissible content removed] here. As I have already pointed out, the IIHS injury stats are skewed and do not account for a wide array of influential factors and demographics. But hey, as long as we're talking about injury loss data, I would like to point out that the RX, GS and IS score worse than comparable MB and BMW models.

    THAT IS WHY BILL GATES BOUGHT A LEXUS..SO HIS KIDS WOULD BE SAFE EVEN THOUGH DADDY MIGHT DRIVE TOO FAST.

    Really? Did Bill tell you this himself? You guys must be pretty good friends. No actually, I would guess he just wanted a no hassle reliable car. If he wants the safest car for his kids there is no reason to trust corner cutting Lexus.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    You know Gates just dotes on his kids...you can bet he did the research and the LS was the safest car he could find. He wouldn't want his kids in the Second safest.

    Yep, it's so safe that it has fewer safety features than Mercedes. Lexus is so safe that they only adopt safety features years after everyone else has done so. In fact, Lexus is such a safety conscious brand that they haven't introduced or reserached any safety features and instead perform their signature "wait and leach" tactic. Luckily the LS430 has rear side airbags to protect his precious children in a wreck... oh wait, no it doesn't.

    Yep, by the looks of it Lexus is just a regular Volvo when it comes to safety.

    :sarcasm:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes. I agree. For the years 2003 and 2004, there are no black marks against the X5 from CR. This truck received 26 out of a possible 28 above average or better reliability ratings for potential trouble spots for 2003 and 2004. Yet sure enough, CR sees fit to rate its 2005 reliability chances as worse than average.
    I already e-mailed CR asking them to explain the apparent discrepancies regarding the X5 and the 5 series.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    Good. I am interested to hear what they have to say.

    If I recall, this was the case with several MB models as well. Correct?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The problem with CR is they will hold my letter to be printed in a future CR issue. I won't get a quick answer.
    Of course there is also the possibility that my letter to them will not see the light of day.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well, the E and S MB's have a couple of below average ratings for the last several years.
    But the BMW 5 and X5-spotless!
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Here is Tiag_m5, in his own words:

    "Lexus is simply an American market rebadge attempt to trick the elderly into buying $65k Toyotas... and it worked. Let me reiterate: Lexus is not a separate entity from Toyota and it never has been."

    "Mercedes safety features work just fine. Not to mention Mercedes has more of them."

    "Lexus doesn't innovate; Lexus is slow to adopt; Lexus has fewer features"

    "MB is one of the few that actually releases and perfects features, Lexus isn't one of them. In fact, Lexus hasn't perfected or innovated ANYTHING in the realm of safety"

    "So, given what we know about both Mercedes and Lexus, who has the obvious advantage? If you say Lexus, you're just being ignorant. Just accept the truth... "

    "BUZZZ. Wrong again. There are no fatality stats to be counted so you're just talking out of your [non-permissible content removed] here..."

    "Okay, so maybe my comment was a bit exaggerated..."

    and on and on and on................ ad infinitum it goes....
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    regardless if you agree with his posts or not you should check out the links he posted. those tests say a lot about MB and what they do to protect the people who purchase their automobiles. I've seen quite a few test photos on the net but I've never seen a manufacturer use a battering ram to test their vehicle.
  • Tiag:

    Now what good are safety features that don't work

    If we talk only safety features that actually work everytime...Lexus probably wins hands down at least that is what Bill Gates seems to believe and With his resources..HE KNOWS.
  • Den:

    The fact that you have never seen other manufactures do this or that, Does not mean that they don't do this or that...

    I am still looking for that car shaped like a wedge....that might plow into my side.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    what MB safety features don't work?
    can you add something of intellectual
    value that would prove that Bill Gates
    knows something we don't?
    since you obviously don't understand
    i will help you understand. the fact that MB tests to such an extreme is what is
    the "point".
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    Now what good are safety features that don't work.

    Please, stop with the drivel that Mercedes safety features “don’t work” and show me some evidence to back up your claim. You’ve already discredited yourself enough by posting false claims and making loaded statements without offering the slightest bit of logic in defense.

    If we talk only safety features that actually work everytime...Lexus probably wins hands down at least that is what Bill Gates seems to believe and With his resources..HE KNOWS.

    STOP THE PRESSES: BILL GATES IS BOTH OMNICIENT AND OMNIPOTENT.

    He knows everything there is to know about everything… especially cars. This makes sense because he’s BILL GATES of course! His extensive experience in the software industry certainly makes him the final authority on all things automotive. All hail lord Gates!

    I guess this could make a bit of sense. After all, there is a very fine line between genius and insanity right? Looks like good old Bill has taken a turn for the worse.

    No seriously, who cares what Bill Gates does? Apparently with all of his "resources" he didn't realize that Lexus penny pinches on safety and has fewer safety features than Mercedes. He also failed to realize that Lexus never innovates and falls behind the curve for the adoption of new safety technologies. So much for Lexus and its safety conscious image facade eh?

    The fact that you have never seen other manufactures do this or that, Does not mean that they don't do this or that...

    As long as Lexus continues to lag behind Mercedes for both safety features and safety innovation I see no reason to believe that Lexus would necessarily care to carry out these types of tests. And last time I looked, Lexus didn’t have an accident investigation team…

    I am still looking for that car shaped like a wedge....that might plow into my side.

    No, actually it would be called a “tree” or a “pole” that might plow into your side.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "BTW Merc i went to test drive the 430 yesterday and although i am in agreement with you about mercedes designs in general being more superior to lexus (can't stand the ES in particular) i have to say that i have to disagree with you about the new 430. I think lexus has finally taken a step in the right direction designwise with this new car (finally!)."

    Well there is really nothing for us to disagree on about that, styling is everyone's own thing.

    I personally find the GS to have way too much wheelbase and too much overhang and most of all too much of hump-back stance to be good looking, but thats just me. I guess when I hear new design direction I think of something that doesn't look like the previous car and/or anything else current in the brands lineup, like the Mercedes CLS or 7-Series back in 2002 (for better or worse).

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Didn't want to get into this *safety* issue, but since you asked Denali, let me oblige by showing you links to an LS that went around a bend too fast at 80mph+. Lost control and car hit a post and obviously totalled. Driver lived to tell the story.... So how did he survive such a horrific crash if the LS was so unsafe as being claimed here by some MB fans ???

    BEFORE
    http://www.djxeno.net/Pics/MYLS3.JPG

    AFTER
    http://www.djxeno.net/Pics/MYLS4.JPG

    Oh BTW, he bought another LS since, according to him, the LS saved his life and he would feel safer in another one... (see link)

    NEW RIDE
    http://www.djxeno.net/Pics/MYLS2.JPG
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Sounds good to me. Now would you do me a favor and go back for a long hard look at the new GS and see if your views would change or not. That car is a beauty up close.... But to appreciate this, you may need to leave your rose-colored glasses at home on in your car while at the Lex shop."

    Just for you I'm going to go and check it out, but I seriously doubt that anything will change considering I've seen the car over and over for over a year now. I never take the glasses with me when I visit a competitor showroom, they wouldn't let me in! Seriously though I don't see how you could think such ill-proportioned car is a "beauty". The car looks terrible, especially in lighter colors.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You're wasting your time on that point, you'll never get any proof about Mercedes' safety equipment not working because this claim is one in a long line of claims that have never been proven, at any time on this board in years. First it was that Lexus takes Mercedes' innovations and perfects them. Now it is Mercedes' safety equipment doesn't work. Neither of these claims has ever been proven, only stated over and over again.

    I think its time to move on now because no proof of any of this will ever been given because it simply doesn't exist. Like I said 24 hours ago, when you read things about rear side airbags being gimmicks for bragging rights or you see the total silence about roll-over protection on a convertible, or when one thinks that a Lexus is so perfect to the point of where replacement parts are not needed, its obvious the original poster has nothing logical to debate with so the constant repeating starts. Logic would tell a level person that Mercedes has been making cars in much greater numbers than Lexus for only about 100+ years long than Lexus so there might be a huge market out there for replacement parts, and even on newer ones because worldwide Mercedes sells way more cars than Lexus does. I say worldwide because the original disingenuous post included a foreign website about replacement parts, which didn't even seperate Lexus from Toyota.

    I'm really laughing at the Bill Gates and what he drives and why. This is hilarious. Like someone here knows him and knows why he drives what. Plenty of rich people drive regular cars that cost less than the ones we're debating here, so what! Doesn't say anything about the car, just the person. On that level, Mercedes are driven from all types of rich folks on every continent across the world, in countries where there is no "Lexus". Then you get a response about a dependability survey that indicates that Lexus' safety equipment works. WHAT? I didn't realize that CR and JDP surveyed folks on whether or not their airbags worked or not? This is the silliest mess I've read, well in the last few hours.

    M
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    So how did he survive such a horrific crash if the LS was so unsafe as being claimed here by some MB fans ??

    Wow, from the looks of that twisted pile of metal I would say that it was by a stroke of pure luck that he survived. And again, I never said the LS was unsafe, I just said that the S was safer...

    Oh BTW, he bought another LS since, according to him, the LS saved his life and he would feel safer in another one... (see link)

    Luck saved his life... not Lexus corner cutting. For all you know, he could have survived that crash in a Kia. No doubt the S class would have held up better anyway. I guess all the people that survived crashes in their Dodge Neons probably feel that the Neon is a pretty safe car... Obviously it isn't.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    What I don't understand is that one minute I read about how unreliable the X5 is and that it has had so many recalls, yet CR says there isn't a reliability problem? Can you explain this?

    tiag_m5,

    I'm enjoying the webpage you linked in your earlier post. Lots of info on Mercedes' safety programs, that far exceed government regulations. Its amazing how rear side airbags come into play in certain types crashes, yet here it doesn't matter.

    M
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi All,

    The original quote was this:

    "Four of the vehicles tested -- the Elantra, New Beetle, Forenza and Spectra -- have standard, head-protecting side air bags. But the institute's chief operating officer, Adrian Lund, said the cars had poor structure that failed to prevent injuries to the torso and pelvis."

    The Corolla did indeed do better, but these cars still did worse. It doesn't look like a definitive conclusion here. Despite what anyone says, there is no hard data to confirm what either party is saying.

    I said: "They did say it wasn't a fair comparison, and likened the LS430 to wearing slippery ballerina shoes if I remember the quote correctly." If that isn't an admission what is? You're comparing someone wearing Reeboks to ballerina shoes...This isn't rocket science...BTW Euro Sport is a no cost option, whereas the S500 is a 30K price difference.

    I drove the '03 S430 Class initially. It had a CD based NAV. (I know the '05 Does have DVD though) It wasn't impressive at all. If I remember correctly the CD changer was still in the trunk as well. I didn't see what is so "Athletic" about it. Maybe the S500 is different, I didn't drive it so I don't know. For $78K you are getting more because you are paying more! Compare a $71K LS430 Ultra to get a better idea of value. The only reason Electronics is in Lexus' favor is because of the reliability of Japanese electronics. Reading the surveys it seems Electronics is what is driving down Mercedes' ranking right now.

    Maybe BMW has the highest residual value overall, but the LS430 has the best in class one of 64%. So not only does it cost less, it holds its' value better too. As far as value and reliability goes, the LS is the better deal. I'd give MB the nod on Safety innovation, BMW the nod on performance, and Jaguar the nod on "style." To each his own.

    Granted different consumers have different priorities. It's like my fascination with Jaguar..Sure, it's not going to be as reliable as my LS but it offers better styling and a different experience..I think you will all agree spending $60K on any car is not a fully "Logical" decision. So it is no surprise we see alot of emotional debate on this board.

    SV
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The predicted reliability for the 2005 X5 is worse than average from CR.
    But the data from 2003 and 2004 concerning 14 possible trouble points show above average reliability and it is just these data that CR says it uses for predictive purposes.
    Therefore, based on their accumulated data, the X5 should have been given a better than average reliability rating for 2005 in my opinion.
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