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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Jag's future basically depends on the XK.

    That isn't good considering how small that market is. A facelifted SL is coming sometime this year too. I don't think the XK can save them, a new (and stunning) S-Type would provide the volume and presence they need, IMO.

    I almost want to cry when I think about how beautiful their cars are and their situation.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yet another problem that Jaguar has is the AJ-V8. Its a good engine, but its aging rapidly, and the displacement and power are no longer competitive. They need at least 4.5L and 350+hp in normally aspirated guise, and quick. The blown 4.2 was no match for the old 400hp V8 M5, so it doesn't even have a prayer against BMW's 500hp V-10.
  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    Neither did I forsee Benz passing BMW for December. Back in April/May MB's prospects for 2005 weren't very bright.

    Cadillac cars had another double digit year: +13.3%. Sales have increased now to the point that further big increases will be a challenge.

    Jaguar - things are looking grim. Sales were down 33.7% in 2005, dropping from 45,000+ units to just over 30,000.

    Profits from 30,000 sales won't cover development costs for the upcoming new generation of cars. How long will/can Ford keep funding Jag's losses?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Once a car yenta, always a car yenta!
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    2005 units sold, YTY change

    Lexus 302,895 +5.5%
    BMW (exludes Mini) 266,200 +2.4%
    Cadillac 235,002 +0.3%
    MB 224,489 +1.2%
    Acura 209,610 +5.7%
    Infiniti 136,401 +4.5%
    Jaguar 30,424 -33.7%
  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    Those totals include both cars and trucks.

    Here are some makes with car/truck sales split.

    Lexus cars +11.5% trucks +0.4%
    Infinity cars +9.6% trucks -5.6%
    Cadillac cars +13.4 trucks -19.6%.
    Mercedes cars -5.8% trucks +51.8%
    Porsche cars +36.6% trucks -24.9%
    Jaguar cars -33.7%
    Acura cars +9.1% trucks -2.3%
    BMW cars -2.1% trucks +6.7%

    The M and R classes are boosting MB: BMW trucks are doing well. The Cayenne, MDX and Escalade aren't moving but Porsche, Acura and Cadillac cars are booming.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Scott, thanks for that analysis.

    Certain german car fans tend to dismiss Lexus because it is so dependent on truck sales. But now in 2005 MB turned in a respectable year overall, basically because of a rejuvenated truck line.

    Maybe trucks matter now?
  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    The blend of trucks sold vs. cars seems to vary from year to year.

    Cayenne really boosted Porsche sales when it first came out. It is still a big seller by Porsche standards but the Boxster is very hot right now.

    The Escalade line was big for several years. The new Cadillac cars are selling very well, overshadowing the trucks.

    I expect the new cars from Mercedes will put MB trucks in the shade in 2006.

    But remember - my predictions aren't always right! :)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Certain german car fans tend to dismiss Lexus because it is so dependent on truck sales.

    Only when certain Lexus fans harp about Lexus sales and how it implies superior cars, overlooking the fact that up until now two out of four of Lexus' cars (GS IS) didn't do squat for Lexus' overall sales picture. The implication was that the Lexus sales machine was built on the back of an all-star lineup of bestsellers and nothing could have been further from the truth.

    Never said that they didn't count only that they didn't always fit in with all the Lexus sales rhetoric.

    That about MB having benefited primarily from a totally rejuvenated truck line isn't correct either. The M-Class is the only new "truck" for 2005 that really did anything. The R went on sale late in the year and barely did anything until Dec, and even then it only added 4959 units for the year! Hardly much to base that rejuvenated truck line statement on. Secondly the CLS and SLK did a lot to boost that final number also, especially the CLS which is an all-new model that didn't replace an existing model. The CLS alone added 14K units to the sales total for 2005, more than the SLK and more than M-Class' increase in units vs 2004. It goes CLS,ML,SLK and then R in that order as to what model did the most for MB in 2005. The only reason the press release is touting a big jump in "truck" sales is because MB didn't sell many "trucks" in 2004 to begin with.

    M
  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    I think the CLS is a big winner. I hope it continues in the MB line for more than just the current model cycle. Sales of the new SLK are a pleasant surprise.

    A CLS in Alabaster/Sunset Red, Bordeaux/Cashmere or Silver/Sunset Red is stunning. IMO the kind of car that invites you to walk around observing it from all points of the compass.

    If you buy me a CLS you can choose the color for me as long as it isn't black. Summers are way too hot in the badlands for black cars or black interiors.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    That about MB having benefited primarily from a totally rejuvenated truck line isn't correct either.

    You can spin it however you want, but according to scott's data MB car sales were down -5.8% for the year, and it is only the increase in truck sales that kept them from showing an overall sales decline for the year.

    I'm not saying it was a terrible performance overall, as I have always liked to look at total vehicle sales, including trucks. But if one frames the analysis the way some german car fans sometimes do (e.g., ignoring the trucks) then MB didn't do so hot.

    It wasn't you but maybe dewey or someone who not long ago was touting BMW as being the leading US seller of luxury CARS, to the exclusion of SUVs. All too often we see german car fans want to exclude SUVs, basically because Lexus does so well in that area. Now the shoe is on the other foot...with SUVs having saved MB from a down sales year.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    It wasn't you but maybe dewey or someone who not long ago was touting BMW as being the leading US seller of luxury CARS, to the exclusion of SUVs.

    True and BMW is the number one luxury car seller in USA! And according to the latest statistics BMW cars have more momentum than BMW SUVs. Up to now nothing has changed.

    Spin-Free Analysis of Undistorted Data
    Annual sales of BMW's two SAV models are off 2 percent. The company reported sales of 68,367 vehicles compared to 69,829 in the same period of 2004. SAV sales were down 11 percent for the month to 5,954 vehicles, compared to 6,720 vehicles sold in December 2004.

    Monthly sales of BMW automobiles were up 9.3 percent, to 20,510 cars compared to 18,762 sold in December 2004. Yearly automobile sales were up 4 percent, with 197,833 automobiles sold compared to 190,250 in the same period a year ago.
  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    The BMW sales numbers in my post #12515 are wrong!

    I rechecked all the other brands and they are all correct.

    Here is the right BMW sales data for 2005:

    BMW cars +4.0%
    BMW trucks -2.1%

    Thanks for helping me notice my mistake, Dewey. :)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    LOL, I did not even notice your numbers were wrong.

    But I am grateful to be of assistance even though my assistance was accidental. :D
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    When looking at BMW's performance, look only at CARS, because it makes BMW look better.

    When looking at MB's 2005 performance, look at VEHICLES (cars + SUVs), because it makes MB look better.

    When looking at Lexus' performance, look at whatever makes Lexus look worse.

    That's the "new math", I guess. Or should I say "German math"?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    December sales of the 5 series are up 25% over December 2004 and up 15.7% YTD.

    December sales of the E are down 16.4% from December 2004 and down 14.5% YTD.

    Thank you Chris Bangle for your daring and exciting new design which has so animated the LPS and HELM buying public.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Some logic consistency please. If 14k units in the first model year is considered great sucess, the old GS and IS did just fine. Alternatively, you have to admit that numerous MB models "don't do squat for MB" either; the list would be a long one: SL, CL, CLK, CLS, S AMG, E AMG, C AMG, CL AMG, SLK AMG, G, G AMG, etc. etc, accounting for more than 3/4 models in the MB lineup.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Like I said before, the huge discounts that MB Financial was offering actually made them decent deals, assuming the lessor lives in the city and reliable car is not an indispensable requirement. The question it begs though, can we really call a $300-550/mo car brand "high end luxury marque"?
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    BMW is the number one luxury car seller in USA!

    I would not call 325i a luxury car. That model alone accounts for about half of all BMW car sales.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,683
    The last model year sales are always awful in part because production is cut. So in every case the new model will look great comparatively to the prior year. This is true of any brand. I think the best way to look at first year model sales comparatively is against sales of the car that are two years removed from it as opposed to the prior year.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,683
    In hindsight - If you bought an auto stock I hope it was Toyota's. I remember talking about this two months ago and DCX is flat vs a big run-up by Toyota. As I said back then Toyota was the growth buy and still is.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=TM
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    1-yr comparison chart: DCX v TM

    link title

    And sales.... wow ! We got German car fans talking about sales ? Blasphemous !!! The year must be slow with news, eh ! NAIAS will be here soon enough...
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Yes I can recall quite vividly that DCX vs. TM discussion.

    At this point TM has more momentum while DCX at the time of our discussion had more momentum.

    Currently TM stock is doing very well and deserves to do very well. All auto executives including in Stuttgart admire Toyota's shrewd and successful bets in various segments of the auto industry. That in itself is undeniable.

    Unlike TM, DCX is a turnaround situation and I seriously doubt that anybody would believe that their turnaround would happen in two months.

    Whatever happens to DCX or TM stockprices will not change my views on what brand of car I will choose to drive and own. Test driving is what will determine my choice.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You can spin it however you want, but according to scott's data MB car sales were down -5.8% for the year, and it is only the increase in truck sales that kept them from showing an overall sales decline for the year.

    No spinning needed. Maybe you need to look at the numbers yourself. The CLS is what put MB ahead in 2005 compared to 2004. The CLS sold more units than either the R-Class or the number of units the M-Class added to it's 2004 total. Like I said before they're touting a big increase in "truck" sales because in 2004 they didn't sell that many to begin with.

    They did fine in car sales too considering the age of certain core models.

    M
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    Karl Brauer, editor-in-chief of Edmunds.com, has this to say about the styling of the '07 S:

    ... in 2006 automakers are showing too much flair, both literally and figuratively.

    Let's take the all-new 2007 Mercedes-Benz S-Class as an example. This model has long represented the pinnacle of the Mercedes brand. It's supposed to exude refinement and elegance because that's what S-Class buyers exude (or at least that's what these buyers tell themselves they exude…). Regardless, the newest model is neither refined nor elegant. Its formally clean shape is broken up by exaggerated fender flares, not to mention a busy trunk that looks to be inspired by — believe it or not — the current 7 Series. In this case both the actual fender flares (that go so far as to break up the headlight design), and the general sense of "flair" swirling about the entire vehicle distort any sense of world-class luxury car. Some have suggested the S-Class took its styling cues from Mercedes' ultrahigh-end brand, Maybach. Well, there are two models that have garnered styling accolades in recent years and should serve as inspiration — the 7 Series and the Maybach.


    I have to reserve final judgment until I see the car in person, but from the pictures I've seen, I unfortunately have to say I agree (except for the last two sentences, for which I can't figure out exactly what he is trying to say).

    Love the square, hate the "flair"
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Some logic consistency please. If 14k units in the first model year is considered great sucess, the old GS and IS did just fine.

    How about some common sense please. The GS and especially IS were dirt cheap (compared to a CLS) and competed in a much cheaper segment than the CLS and still coudln't sell in the past. The CLS isn't nearly as cheap, and that lease mumbo jumbo isn't going to apply because MB had no trouble at all moving 14,000 CLS. Quit comparing a 30K IS to a 65K CLS and saying the IS didn't do bad in sales back then. Plain ridiculous, you're comparing three different segments with the IS,GS and CLS, yet can come up with a grand excuse for the IS and GS for being sales flops until now. Must be the Lexus math/logic.

    Alternatively, you have to admit that numerous MB models "don't do squat for MB" either; the list would be a long one: SL, CL, CLK, CLS, S AMG, E AMG, C AMG, CL AMG, SLK AMG, G, G AMG, etc. etc, accounting for more than 3/4 models in the MB lineup.

    I guess you have the sales numbers for those AMG models to back up this really bogus claim right? Most if not all of cars you mention cost more than most any Lexus, yet they're supposed to set the sales charts on fire. All those models most certainly do add up when the final numbers are counted, difference is you don't see anyone constantly harping about how Mercedes is going to outsell this and outsell that everytime someone brings up ANY other aspect of an automobile.

    Twist, spin and twist is your game here..knowing full well those high-end models like "E AMG", "C AMG" aren't going to set a sales chart on fire, yet two of Lexus main cars, priced attractively in a competitive segment couldn't sell at all (first IS) and/or dropped off like a rock (GS after 2000). Two compare the two segments is silly and I think you know this.

    One minute the AMG models mean nothing in the total sales picture (your words from a few weeks ago) now they're supposed to set the sales charts on fire, nevermind that nothing from Lexus competes with these models and in most cases no Lexus is even in the same price range. The CL,SL,G, and their AMG versions, plus the AMG versions of the E,C,SLK, and G. Absurd.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    C&D formally reviewed the S550 this month, and I really dont remember any complaints about the styling. Strangely, they said that the new knob based COMAND system is the best one in a German car yet (even better than MMI) and at the same time, had a piece on how difficult it was to do simple operations like changing the radio station. C&D contradicted itself several times this issue, actually.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I haven't seen a review of the new S yet that didn't say that the new Comand Controller wasn't the easiest to use of the three German systems. It isn't unusual for one or two C&D editors to go against their overall view in that counterpoint section, but a whole section about Comand and what not that doesn't say the same thing as the roadtest? :confuse:

    C&D overall is becoming really fickle now it seems, even more so than usual.

    The usually harsh British press loves the car.

    M
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "Its formally clean shape is broken up by exaggerated fender flares, not to mention a busy trunk that looks to be inspired by — believe it or not — the current 7 Series. In this case both the actual fender flares (that go so far as to break up the headlight design), and the general sense of "flair" swirling about the entire vehicle distort any sense of world-class luxury car. Some have suggested the S-Class took its styling cues from Mercedes' ultrahigh-end brand, Maybach. Well, there are two models that have garnered styling accolades in recent years and should serve as inspiration — the 7 Series and the Maybach."

    I have to reserve final judgment until I see the car in person, but from the pictures I've seen, I unfortunately have to say I agree (except for the last two sentences, for which I can't figure out exactly what he is trying to say).


    He's being sarcastic.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Autoexpress article

    (cross-posted on the 2007 LS forum)

    Anyone know how the 500Nm translates into lb-ft?

    Also, lexusi had some interesting tidbits here.
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