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High End Luxury Cars

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  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The following is from an article about automotive technology:

    link title

    After four hours of such testing, the volunteers and the test staff were surprised how dependent on modern technologies everyone had become, losing skills such as “braking cadence” once taught to drivers. “This test also showed how far car design has come,” said Graham Griffiths of the Ultimate Car Control, an advanced driver training school. "Modern cars not only have stability and traction control, they also have better tires, better suspension and overall dynamics. Technology has moved on and drivers have been left behind.”
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I say get rid of the AC in all BMW's-it not only detracts from performance, but can also lull you to sleep and reduces gas mileage.

    just give me the engine, the steering wheel, the steptronic transmission and the brakes.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Gosh folks, this is a high-class discussion which enjoys participation by high-class folks, for the most part. I guess I'm not understanding why there is so much troll-feeding going on here.

    With all of the very active and great conversation that has gone on here lately, this discussion is ending up on the Hot Topics list - sometimes that attracts some who wish to disrupt. They can't disrupt if you don't respond.

    Feel free to drop me an email at any time. Thanks!
  • jonpnjjonpnj Posts: 52
    I think if you bought one with ED you may be able to delete those features. Just my $0.02.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I don't know, but BMW's ED program sounds like a lot of fun.
    Quite a few posters on the BMW boards have purchased or leased their BMWs that way and have nothing but praise for it.

    Just being able to drive unrestricted on the Autobahn should make it an experience one would never forget.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "I say get rid of the AC in all BMW's"

    In the Tampa area?? Hpowders you'l be sayiny humina, humina, humina 100 times over when that angry group of BMW drivers corners you.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Quite a few posters on the BMW boards have purchased or leased their BMWs that way

    Ah, but did they elect to leave the A/C and stereo out? If they left those things in, are they still "real driving enthusiasts"?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    What a hilarious read that link was... Thanks Scott1256 for providing the link....

    Here are a few juicy parts:

    On VW: "Best Reason to Skip a Display Altogether. The VW exhibit was so dull and uninspiring that it's no wonder they didn't schedule a press conference during the media days. The only thing they had to talk about was the new VW Passat Wagon (OMG!),..."

    On MB: "Second-Best Reason to Skip a Display Altogether. We'd like to get a line on whatever it is the folks at Mercedes-Benz are smoking, because it must be truly special. The fact that this company would show up at the Detroit Auto Show with the monumentally embarrassing "GL" Class defies explanation - and it's one of the leading candidates in our annual Autoextremist "Answer to the Question that Absolutely No One is Asking" Sweepstakes. Combine that with the dreadfully overwrought R-Class, and you can't help but step back and say, "These guys are good." Not...."

    On BMW: "We are BMW and we have a cool display, thank you very much. BMW had more vehicles crammed in their display than just about anybody. The highlights for most people were the M6 and the M5, but we liked the bikes best...."

    On Audi: "Well, it's better than "Q7." The Audi Roadjet concept made its debut in Detroit and it was another car that had designers buzzing. With clearly the most elegant and emotional version of Audi's new "face" its main calling card, the Roadjet had the usual number of lame show car features that defy logic, like four individual entertainment centers (is anybody actually driving these days?) and a built-in espresso maker, but it also has Audi's new 7-speed Direct Shift Gearbox too. The name?..."

    On Toyota: "If you hovered quietly near the all-new Lexus LS460, you could observe the steady parade of German-speaking executives gathering for a good long look at their future nightmare. They weren't smiling or joking. It was like watching athletes watching game film of a competitor that displayed no weaknesses whatsoever - and they didn't have a clue as to what they were going to do to stop them on game day. With the new Lexus LS460, Toyota has made it clear that the often-heard refrain of, "Yeah, it's pretty good and they have a great customer service program, but it's no Mercedes and it's certainly no BMW" will be a thing of the past. Toyota is shedding its "humble competitor" persona with their new luxury flagship, and they're going right for the Germans' jugular - and on paper at least, they have an excellent shot at dethroning the status quo..."

    Wow... Interesting read, indeed !!!!
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Tagman - Immediate presence in Europe plus a distribution network. Asia has to be much more interesting to Toyota and Lexus than Europe so build one place, acquire in another.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    and on paper at least, they have an excellent shot at dethroning the status quo..."


    On paper at least the Lexus GS had an excellent shot at dethroning the 5 series.

    On paper at least the Lexus IS had an excellent shot at dethroning the 3 series.

    On paper at least LS460 has an excellent shot at dethroning the the MB S Class or the BMW 7 series.

    What is on paper is not necessarily true in the form of metal. Despite this I agree it is a hilarious article. But more hilarious than true!
  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    The Autoextremist weekly blog is one of my favorites.

    He is very perceptive and seems to have a (fairly) unbiased viewpoint. His 'on the table' summaries are usually great as well as his 'rant' column.

    It comes out every Wednesday.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Why is it that so many of us see the obvious and the corporate managers just don't get it? It's a freakin' billion dollar tragedy.

    You all know I love German cars, but I'll pick on the German cars for a second here. I am reminded of the simple down-to-earth simplicity of a cup holder, for example. We all know that for years this feature commonly known to every American man, women, and child as the "cupholder" was basically banned from German cars. Little was it known to the Germans that Americans were born with the constitutional right to a cupholder. They just plain didn't get it! How ridiculous and out-of-touch. The excuses went on for years as to how "unecessary" and "anti-driving" it was, and then . . . suddenly . . . the Germans not only offered a cupholder, but they MASTERED the cupholder, and it then appeared as a "contraption" that would zip out of the dash or console with little plastic fingers and a spring loaded support, and basically spill your coffee all over the place just before snapping into a bunch of plastic pieces and springs.

    OK enough of my rambling . . . my point is to use this very simple example of how sometimes the corporate level is just plain out-of-touch and they just don't "get it".

    And then there's Lexus.

    Know what I mean?

    TagMan
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    On paper....

    The LS does NOT need any paper listing of features to dethrone the 7 and S. It already did, 15 of the last 17 years.... Get it ?

    I notice you missed the part about all the German brands, or that part about Audi with an espresso machine, and 4 entertainment centers in the car ?? Convenient oversight, eh ??? Talk about gadgets, gimmicks, and no-shows.....The Germans fit all the bills...
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Immediate presence in Europe plus a distribution network. Asia has to be much more interesting to Toyota and Lexus than Europe so build one place, acquire in another.

    Theory is interesting, but would Jaguar be the one to fit the bill successfully?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The LS does NOT need any paper listing of features to dethrone the 7 and S. It already did, 15 of the last 17 years.... Get it ?

    oac - when you say "dethrone", what exactly are you referring to?
  • I've read pages and pages of messages on here and the back and forth regarding "the LS rules", and "the LS styling is a knock-off of BMW".

    When I first saw the pics of the LS, I immediately thought "BMW 7 series". Except (to me) it looks a little better than a 7. But the styling IS derivative, and if my first reaction is the same as many others, it can't be just a "coincidence".

    The thing is, I don't get why it's that big of an issue on this board. Lexus will sell a ton of them. And they'll do it because the Lexus is at least as good as the BMW and MB, and $15k-$20k cheaper (probably). But you know what? Hyundai is doing the same thing at the bottom end of the market to the Japanese. The Sonata has been getting better and better, to basically equal the Japanese competition in quality & reliability, while maintaining a significant price advantage.

    Face it, not everyone (or even most people) that buy a BMW 7 series do it because it is a driver's (or "performance") vehicle. They do so because it is big and luxurious and has a good name. And guess what? That's the same reason a lot of people will buy a Lexus. Add "less expensive" and "more reliable" into the mix, and you can see why the LS is a compelling option, not just for S-Class buyers, but for 7-series buyers as well.

    Fair disclosure: I drive an Audi (an A3, mind you, not an A8, which my budget will not yet allow for), before anyone accuses me of being a "Lexus-lover" or something like that.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The LS does NOT need any paper listing of features to dethrone the 7 and S. It already did, 15 of the last 17 years.... Get it ?

    Yes I get it. Lower priced luxury items usually sell at greater volume.

    It will be interesting to see how Hyundai's new RWD H.E.L.M. will sell? A luxury Hyundai may be ridiculed at first but may end up selling at the highest volume because of its price. Does that not sound familiar to the Lexus LS, especially 16 years ago?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "Lower priced luxury items usually sell at greater volume."

    This is all the more true when they are equal or better and are more reliable after five years than a brand new one from the competition.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    This is all the more true when they are equal or better

    The LS is more reliable. Equal or better? Is that so? Supply and demand dictates otherwise! If the LS was equal or better than all the offerings from German marques then they would be faced with the same situation Jaguar is faced with today.

    Everybody here can have an opinion which car is better. But in the end markets dictate the truth.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    So it has to drive someone out of business to be better. Wow.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    People lived in Florida long before AC.
    It builds character (if one doesn't die from dehydration first).
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    So it has to drive someone out of business to be better. Wow.

    Yes competition is alive and well even in the luxury markets.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    No, unfortunately. Of those who made the pilgrimage, and BMW fanatics are urged to go to Munich once in their lifetime; from what I recall, quite a few of those pseudo-enthusiasts ordered their cars completely loaded.
    I'm shocked that the mother-factory would actually allow this.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Mercedes is not being driven out of business for goodness sakes and neither is BMW. Lexus is good, but NO one should expect the ENTIRE Luxury market to consist of only Lexus's. That's ridiculous. Heck, if I were to waste a bunch more money than I already do, I'd have a couple of Mercedes, BMW's, Jag's and MAYBE even a Lexus in the garage. Why? Because each has it's own unique credentials.

    For example, will a Lexus outperform a BMW on a tight twisty country road? NO, IT WILL NOT! Will it give a sumptuous ride without many visits to the shop? Yes.

    Lexus is better at some things and BMW is better at some things, Mercedes is better at some things, etc., etc.

    I try to respect you Lexus guys for having certain feathers in your caps, but do not try to steal away the ones that rightly belong to the other marques. Credit where credit is due.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    It builds character (if one doesn't die from dehydration first).

    I guess this is why all serious performance cars should have cup holders. It's good to have character and be alive at the same time.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Tagman - it wasn't us who suggested that. It was Dewey who said MB and BMW would be in Jaguars shape if Lexus was really good. Thus the comment back was that the need to drive someone out of business to prove yourself is a ridiculous position to take. Seems like something got lost in translation.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Hey, ljflx . . .I've been thinking about trying out one of those TemperPedic beds, y'know with the memory foam and all that, but now that I've seen the back seat of the LS460L with that LazyBoy recliner with the built-in massager, maybe I'd actually get better ZZZZZZZ's in the back of the Lexus. Gosh, I knew that car might be good for something!
    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Isn't it funny how BMW can design such sophisticated vehicles, yet the ergonomics of a simple cup-holder still eludes them?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I agree. see post 12982
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    It was Dewey who said MB and BMW would be in Jaguars shape if Lexus was really good.

    Is that what I said? I dont think so?

    Found in translation
    Your view was that the Lexus LS is not only cheaper but equal or better than German offerings.

    My view was that if a cheaper Lexus LS was really better than German offerings then the Germans would have serious problems like Jaguar.
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