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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Just for you. Does this mean anything?

    http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050414.004

    "The Mercedes-Benz E-Class offers the best occupant safety of all passengers cars registered in the USA. That was the conclusion reached by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) after extensive accident analysis.

    Between 2000 and 2003, the independent IIHS looked at how many drivers were killed in road accidents. The Mercedes-Benz E-Class obtained the best results of all the models examined: the E-Class accounts for ten fatal accidents a year for every million vehicles registered. The comparable average figure for all passenger cars is almost nine times higher than the E-Class; the figure for certain models is even over 300, according to the IIHS.

    The results from the Mercedes-Benz S-Class are equally impressive. With a score of 25, the S-Class is the safest car in the “Luxury Class, very large” category.

    These findings are again impressive testimony to the effectiveness of the practical Mercedes-Benz safety concept. The concept is based on analysing real-world accidents and defines vehicle safety as a whole, ranging from accident prevention by means of electronic assistance systems through occupant protection that adapts to the severity of the impact, to allowing passengers to be rescued as quickly as possible after an accident."


    This paints a far different picture than the one you tried to a few pages ago, and this result is based on actual research not a Google search. To think this research was done, and the result achieved during the years in which Mercedes' reliablity was at its worst, yet they managed to accomplish this. Note, they mention both the E and S-Class as being the best in their respective categories. Seems to me that theory about Mercedes' reliability being a deadly problem goes right out the window. Here is your proof about Mercedes' safety in the real world.

    M
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    When it works, it's great. We all agree on that. But what about those in the dealer's shops for recall or repair? Let's agree on just one thing, MB DOES have reliability problems.
    Why do you still beat this to death? Aren't we done with this long time ago?
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    What is he beating to death? He already acknowledged MB’s reliability problems. And I don’t recall seeing reference to those stats before.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You missed the point obviously. The point is that Mercedes' safety technology does work. All this talk on here about reliability as if nothing ever works on a Mercedes then trying to say that MB's are deadly because of it is the tired and worn part and most of all it wasn't even true. That "when it works" crap is just that and it doesn't apply to safety like some tried to imply.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I guess it can't be helped, if it isn't from JDP and CR it doesn't compute.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Ah, so you are willing to accept IIHS data now?

    2 points:

    1. The full study, if you look at it http://www.iihs.org/srpdfs/sr4003.pdf only included one Lexus vehicle, the RX, which by the way ranked as safer than the S-Class, though not as safe as the E. (Not bad for a vehicle with a higher center of gravity than either the S or E.) So the study you tout hardly proves that MB is safer than Lexus, or that the S is safer than the LS.

    2. Since you accept IIHS data now, why don't you take a look at this:
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_lux.htm . That data...from the same source you just touted...shows that the LS has lower injury rates than the S. In fact it shows that the LS is the safest luxury sedan, period (though if you include station wagons it gets beat by Audi).

    So, which is safer in the real world, again?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "That data...from the same source you just touted...shows that the LS has lower injury rates than the S. In fact it shows that the LS is the safest luxury sedan, period (though if you include station wagons it gets beat by Audi).

    The part of the survey I showed deals with deaths not injuries. More injuries in this case didn't translate into deaths.

    For any Mercedes to be ranked highly anywhere on this survey blows your theory about Mercedes' reliability having an adverse affect on their safety out of the window. According to you MB's reliablity problems cancel out any advantage they may have in safety engineering because the engineering isn't reliable and doesn't work. That is simply bogus and isn't supported by anything. This proves that. Remember in one hand is CR who ranked the E-Class as the most unreliable this and that in America yet still manages to be safe according to IIHS. Safer than most other cars on the road.

    Also I do see where the CLK is safer than the ES, the C-Class 4-door is safer than the IS, and the E is safer than the GS. Do you not see this?

    "So, which is safer in the real world, again?"

    Mercedes is, beating Lexus in the majority of models in the survey!

    BTW, I never had anything against their data, never disputed it.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    "So, which is safer in the real world, again?"

    Mercedes is.

    I just don't see how you can arrive at that conclusion using the available data. Let's say its just fine for you to throw out the injury data and focus on the death data. The death data doesn't prove anything, because it included only the E, RX, and S...and the RX ranked in the middle of the three. The only conclusion one might draw is that when it comes to death rates, Lexus is about as safe as MB. But even that conclusion is a stretch because so many Lexus and MB models aren't referenced in the death rate study (LS, GS, C, ML, etc., etc.)

    As for the injury data, if you average all the IIHS MB injury data you get an injury rate of 75.6. If you average all the Lexus injury data you get…75.5.

    So in summary the death rate data is inconclusive as regards MB vs Lexus, and the injury data seems to show about equal real-world safety.

    I stand by my point of several weeks ago, that lack of certain safety devices in Lexus vehicles may be offset by the impact of MB’s reliability issues on safety. I never claimed that the reliability factor definitely outweighed the safety equipment factor (and if you think I did I'd like to see the quote), only that we didn’t have enough data and that the two factors might cancel each other out. Now, examination of the IIHS data seems to support the notion that overall real-world safety is about equal between the 2 brands.
  • Merc:

    The article says best results of automobiles tested......Was the Lexus tested and were does it say that?....
  • Merc.

    Since this board is about the LS and the S...and not the E or station wagons or suvs.....It seems the LS is the safest or the High End Luxury Marques.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    in getting into the "which one is safer" endless argument again. No one is going to see it any differently than they did the last time.

    Please move on.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Let's find something else to arg.., er discuss, something we didn't just beat way way into the ground recently.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Rumor mill from Autoweek and others continue to speculate on an LS600h or an LS500GT. Both of which will churn out 600hp. Even a hi-po V8-powered IS500 (400hp) that will go against the new M3 (407hp). Rumors for sure, but what is the world coming to with this HP war going on ? Imagine an LS with 600hp ???? That just doesn't ring possible, but who knows ???

    Oh BTW, the 4.6L 2007 LS460 is now pegged at 350bhp, while the LS500 (lwb) is rumored at 400bhp.
  • vwguildvwguild Posts: 1,620
    I am certainly glad that gas is so cheap... ;)
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi All,
    Vwguild makes an interesting point here. I don't see the point of Lexus building such a car with gas prices being what they are..Of course anyone shelling out $65K+ for an LS isn't going to be bothered, but it hardly seems like a move Lexus would normally make. It would be better to use the hybrid drivetrain to achieve a "Sporty" HP rating.. I don't see the point of these HP wars. My 92 LS has 250 HP and is fast enough for me.

    I had the opportunity to drive a Volvo S60 R AWD the other day. I know this isn't a "high end" marque, but I think I am starting to understand the BMW/MB side of things here. It was a very spirited driving experience and the car rode like it was on rails. Very impressive. It was a different experience alltogether from my LS430. After driving that car, I feel even more strongly our attempts at arguing which car is better is pointless. It's clear to me each manufacturer caters to a different personality set. It all depends on your buying criteria really.

    I finally got a chance to drive my new LS430 since my wife wanted the snow tires taken off. (As some of you know, my wife stole my car while I was in the UK on business) The ride with the 18" tires isn't bad. I noted it was noiser than the 17"s on my old car. But it does seem to have crisper handling. Of course I probably won't drive it fast enough to really appreciate the benefits of the wider wheels. I was tempted to get the Smart Key system switched out so I could have my car all to myself. I've been driving my old 92 LS which has been a real treat. I'm wondering what it will take to get my car back.

    Merc,
    No real surprise on the safety results. MB's are built like tank, pure and simple. The S Class had a real solid feel to it when I saw it in person. I don't think safety has been compromised by their recent quality issues. MB's problems seem to be primarily Electronics related, and not construction. I was surprised the E did as well as the S-Class. I've been thinking alot about the E320 CDI with the fuel prices what they are. Will they offer that with 4Matic? I always wondered why we don't see more Diesel variants of high end cars here. I saw enough of them in London.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "I had the opportunity to drive a Volvo S60 R AWD the other day. I know this isn't a "high end" marque, but I think I am starting to understand the BMW/MB side of things here. It was a very spirited driving experience and the car rode like it was on rails. Very impressive. It was a different experience alltogether from my LS430. After driving that car, I feel even more strongly our attempts at arguing which car is better is pointless. It's clear to me each manufacturer caters to a different personality set. It all depends on your buying criteria really."

    Ahh..very interesting. Just think that was just a "Volvo", wait until you try AMG Mercedes-Benz or a Motorsport BMW. A whole different world from anything from Japan.

    "I've been thinking alot about the E320 CDI with the fuel prices what they are. Will they offer that with 4Matic? I always wondered why we don't see more Diesel variants of high end cars here. I saw enough of them in London."

    Well diesel has a dirty name here to the uninformed. They're still stuck on what went on in the 1980s so diesels are a tough sell to people who aren't current on modern diesel's many advances. Secondly the U.S. diesel fuel supply is too "dirty" with sulfur for the current diesels to really be effective. This is scheduled to change around Aug-Sept 2006 when clean diesel is supposed to be the law. This is also why the current E320 CDI still uses the old I6 instead of Mercedes' new V6 diesel. BMW has recently announced that they will import diesels here for 2007 and Mercedes has also stated that the new M-Class will be available with a diesel for the 2007 model year. BMW in particular has a killer diesel in the form of the 535d....I6/272hp, lots of torque and nearly 545i gasoline V8 performance while getting way better mileage than the much weaker gasoline I6 530i. Mercedes can't offer the current E320 CDI in 4Matic because the I6 engine and 4Matic hardware won't fit, but for 2007 the new V6 diesel engine Mercedes just unveiled (224hp/376lb-ft) will be in the 2007 E320CDI with 4Matic being available because the V6 is much more compact. Mercedes also has a new 4.0L V8 (314hp) diesel which I'm sure will come here with the next S-Class and maybe even in the E, M, and R Classes as well. I forgot but I think I've seen where the R-Class will get a diesel also for 2007. The diesel combinations are endless once the fuel supply is cleaned up and these motors can pass Caili (and the like) emision standards.

    M
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    There's a good article in the Autoinsider section of the Detroit News about the fact that major DCX shareholders Deutschbank and Kuwait Investment Corp have been approached by private equity firms to buy out their shares so that DCX can be broken up.

    MB might have to figure out how to survive on its own without Chrysler keeping it afloat financially. Deutschbank won't like this because they know that they'll have to bail MB out.

    Ah, wishful thinking.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I think it is kind of sad that the 320CDI hasn't gotten more attention in the US. I think it is not just the 80s "dirty" reputation, but also how the press has treated it...meaning that they haven't given it and modern diesel generally the coverage they deserve. Hybrid just seems "newer" and therefore makes a more "interesting" "story". The buying public imho really is influenced by media hype.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi All,
    Merc, thanks for your information on the diesels. I think the E320 CDI deserves more attention. I'm really interested in a 4Matic/Diesel combo. It would be great in the New England weather and easy on the fuel. My neighbor has a VW Passat Wagon diesel that gets nearly 50 MPG. My LS430 gets about 18 MPG around town. I think MB would do well by bringing a S Class diesel to the US. A lot of my friends swear by diesel. It's a shame the press hasn't given them more attention. Hybrids may be new, but I wonder what issues will crop up with them in the long term. At least Diesel has been tried and tested.

    The Volvo was an interesting experience. I've never been in a M series BMW or an AMG MB. Sounds like a lot of fun. It would be nice for a toy car. Up here in MA, I don't think you could use one of those as a daily driver. Then again, I doubt those cars are meant for the daily commute. I'm beginning to see the point, that a car purchase doesn't always have to "make sense". (In terms of JDP, CR, etc)

    SV
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