Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





High End Luxury Cars

14224234254274281156

Comments

  • If you can go back and look at your very first post on the forum. (in response to your second paragraph.)

    You sell Benz and drive them so that is your bias...I own an LS so that is my bias.

    I agree that The S is a Beautiful Car with very high Prestige....The new GS may be even more beautiful.

    I try very hard to only respond in kind...I would truly be happy just to read and learn.. but.. Perhaps because I have reached the advanced Lexus Owner Age..My bell rings in response to something posted and I feel the need to respond.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    I think one point stroudman is trying to make is that the conversation does not have to always be adversarial. It would be nice to just discuss the cars without a feeling that attacking each other's preferences is a requirement.

    When one part of a particular post does not sit well, It's not really necessary to "respond in kind" to every post after that. Why not just accept that preferences are what they are, everyone has them and is certainly entitled to them, and when you get to the bottom line we are ALL here because we enjoy talking about the cars.

    It doesn't all have to be an endless, unwinnable argument.

    And of course I'm speaking to everyone, not just to you.
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    Just a heads up that 20 plus Phaeton owners are spending the weekend at the VoA headquarters in Auburn Hills meeting each other, swapping VAG Coms, talking to VW technicians and marketing people. Great thing to do if you can do this once or twice a year!

    image
    Just a few of the attending Phaetons... :)
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "I don't care if Mercedes keeps losing sales to Toyota. It's the best thing that could happen to them. Darwin will take care of it one way or another. In the meantime, enough people still prefer a Benz that it keeps bread on my table and pays my bills. If that changes, I'll find another gig…

    Stroudman… Excellent thoughts and good attitude. I like the philosophical and pragmatic quality of your posts lately. I am sure you will continue to do well. Don't let Camp Lexus get to you. They are tenacious. But I think everyone around here is pretty much in agreement on the positives and negatives of all these cars. It's just that the ball needs to go back an forth over the net.

    Just curious...what end of the design industry are you in...what do you design?

    Syswei… I am a graphic designer and creative director of a company that produces scientific communications in multimedia—web, video, print, slides. I also have a degree in engineering.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    The "battle" really is about positions. Camp Lexus, as Designman often calls it, is one-sided.... What about Camp MB ? Yet to see that :)

    Stroudman is actually a good poster and quite honest about his affiliation with MB. My only complaint is the name-calling.... I'd be happy to buy from him anyday, unless its an MB :)

    Designman: An engineer turned scientific designer ? Makes perfect sense to me :) Being in the scientific business myself may well explain why I like your writings; they reflect the kind of logic that "afflict" many people in the business :):)
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "What about Camp MB ? Yet to see that"

    LMAO. TENACIOUS!

    Hey, how come the R&T comparo didn't get much play around here?

    Gimee a B!

    Gimmee an M!

    ;-)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "And it is gullible to like a Lexus just because its a Lexus, but not when it comes to MBs right ? I submit that you are even more gullible than the rest of us since you can only pontificate about these cars. Try them for size... How 'bout that ? Bottomline is that you cannot bring yourself to like anything Lexus, and I don't mean the tepid likeness you spout about the old SC or 1st gen LS either. Let me remind you how abominably ugly old MBs were until the last decade. Timeless you'll call the oldies, but I'll call them ugly ! They were anything but aestethically pleasing. But today's MBs are distinguished MORE by their beautiful design than their quality and reliability, typical benchmarks of a marque brand. Living on borrowed times....."

    More of the same. You have to be an owner and yet when I did give a lexus a compliment it isn't meant. Lets bring up how unnattractive you think older Mercedes were to try and cover up the fact on how ugly current Lexuses are. What tired nonsense. As to be expected I guess. Time for a new line Oac.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "What is being insinuated here is that the reason for the LS's greater sales over MB + BMW COMBINED is simply that it is priced cheaper than these two. So, would it be correct to simply state that if priced about the same, all three will sell equally ? Nothing could be further from the truth."

    Who here said that price was the only reason and that if priced equally the MB and BMW models would sell at the same rate as the Lexus? Talk about reaching!

    What you simply can't admit or see is that price does make a difference to some if not all the buyers in this segment. You can talk about why the price difference is there between a Lexus and a BMW/MB and whether not it is justified until you run out of space here, but no one is arguging that point. The point is that you and others take this most simplistic approach about more sales meaning a better car and that ignore price which is but one factor as to why the LS sells better. Do you honestly think Lexus would sell 30k+ LSs a year at 70k+. Well I guess you would since logic doesn't apply here.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    " Did I say the next S is/will be ugly. No - I said I don't care for the creased line they (and Honda) seem to like these days (every spyshot I saw has it) and I think the new car will drop off in looks - mainly because the current car is as close to perfect in looks as you get with cars this big."

    You only say this because I mentioned this same thing a while ago about that character line. You never even brought it up before now!

    "Then I say that I've read - several times - they are going back to the real large car of the past generations - which was a 208-209" car and I say it's a mistake - in my opinion. None of those cars ever looked anything but big to me."

    I guess this comes from thinking that the Lexus LS is the way to design a bigger car. What makes you think that a 2007 S-Class is going to look anything like a 1992 S-Class because it may be the same size? This is a clear bias that is based on just that bias, nothing else. Since you've payed so much attention to the spy photos you should have realized that the car isn't going to be a box like the 1992 model was! Again this is nothing but hype to me, saying its a mistake to make a car bigger based on a 1992 design instead of taking the mindset of them taking the current car and enlarging it, which would look much better than the 1992 design. Clear and present unfounded worry based on hype.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Stroudman when you read this:

    " But look at GM, No. 1and the biggest for a long time, now going to be overtaken by Toyota. If Toyota can beat GM, they can beat anyone."

    You already know where the conversation is going. The above statement isn't even close to being true yet, but here it is stated like its going to happen this year or that it has already happened. This is a industry projection for like 2008, but on this board and other anti-GM boards the Toyota fans are salavating on this one.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "What you (and Merc1) still aren’t getting is that the S has some “extra content” and that this can account for some degree of price difference without hurting relative unit sales. I am speaking of prestige, of course…which as a 15 year old company Lexus can’t do a whole lot about in comparison to 120-year old MB. If the S and LS were equally desirable in every way except prestige, the S could be priced somewhat higher than the LS and still sell the same number of units."

    This is totally ridiculous for the fact that if a person doesn't have the money to buy a more expensive car prestige doesn't mean squat. This only applies the person who can buy whatever they want, now unless you have something that shows the income of every LS buyer this is way out of whack with reality . Every person that buys a LS at 61-63K can't simlply buy a S500 if they feel like the prestige is enough to get them through the payment book. Totally absurd. You're comparing something intangible like prestige to the reality of making payments.

    A whole lot of people think the S-Class is prestigious (outside of this board), but that doesn't mean they can afford it.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "In the old days when MB cars were better, new MB was a big deal. But now no more. Look at the new M class, MB spent a lot in ads, but nobody is talking about it at all."

    Says who? You think Edmunds message boards are the end all for automotive popularity? There isn't much talk beyond the "prices paid" board for the new SLK either, but the car is outselling the old car by a ridiculous amount. Poof! There goes that theory. Lets see what the sales numbers say for the new ML, then you can make such statements if they apply. Which of course they will not.

    M
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Is the SLK55 out yet? Last time I checked, which wasn't too long ago, it wasn't and they didn't know the ETA. Also, I'd be curious to know what the ratio is of stick to auto with the SLK. Lastly, how is it selling compared with the Boxster?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    As far as I know the SLK55 has been on sale for a while now. There is one person the SLK board that says they have one.

    Sales wise the SLK sold 3113 units from Jan-March this year, up 957 units from this time frame last year. A huge improvement.

    The Porsche Boxster has sold 1752 units from Jan-March (both old and new model), up from 943 units during the same period last year. Also a big improvment.

    [Source:http://www.theautochannel.com/news/Headlines-Automotive.html]

    The stick vs. auto ratio for the SLK350 I have no idea about. Maybe Stroudman can shed some light on this?

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    This is totally ridiculous for the fact that if a person doesn't have the money to buy a more expensive car prestige doesn't mean squat. This only applies the person who can buy whatever they want, now unless you have something that shows the income of every LS buyer this is way out of whack with reality . Every person that buys a LS at 61-63K can't simlply buy a S500 if they feel like the prestige is enough to get them through the payment book. Totally absurd. You're comparing something intangible like prestige to the reality of making payments.

    A whole lot of people think the S-Class is prestigious (outside of this board), but that doesn't mean they can afford it.


    Yes, it is true that a higher priced vehicle is affordable to fewer people. But for the subset of people that can afford the higher priced one, the higher priced one can still outsell the lower priced one, if there is sufficient extra "content". Those people that are interested in and able to pay more for more content can outnumber those who are unable to afford the higher-priced vehicle.

    Why else would the S500 sometimes outsell the S430? Aren't there fewer people able to afford the S500 because of its higher price?

    Why would the E consistently outsell the C? Aren't there fewer people able to afford the E because of its higher price?

    More content at a higher price can sometimes outsell lower content at a lower price, despite the affordability factor. So again I’ll say that If the S and LS were equally desirable in every way except prestige, the S could be priced somewhat higher than the LS and still sell the same number of units.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Who here said that price was the only reason and that if priced equally the MB and BMW models would sell at the same rate as the Lexus? Talk about reaching!

    Well, Merc1, I haven't ever heard you give any other reason expect PRICE for why the LS sells more than the S + BMW combined. If you have seen the error in your previous position and swung to embrace the common thread on this topic, so be it. But we all can read and there is a track record here....

    What you simply can't admit or see is that price does make a difference to some if not all the buyers in this segment.

    As pointed out here, the lease difference b/w a $75K S430 is only about a couple hundred $ higher than a $63K LS430. Are you implying that a greater proportion of those who lease the LS430 cannot afford to lease an S430 ? Yet the S430 sells so pitifully against the LS430. I submit that price is the least of the factor, especially consdiering the higher prestige of the MB over the Lexus. But of course, you have your position which is unshakeable, so let us move on.....
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Yes, it is true that a higher priced vehicle is affordable to fewer people."

    That is my point and prestige doesn't make a different to those who can't afford the car either way.

    "But for the subset of people that can afford the higher priced one, the higher priced one can still outsell the lower priced one, if there is sufficient extra "content". Those people that are interested in and able to pay more for more content can outnumber those who are unable to afford the higher-priced vehicle."

    This only applies if they can afford the car in the first place! Your theory assumes that everyone can just buy up at a whim and it doesn't take into account people who can afford to jump from a 63K car to a 85K one.

    Furthermore you have no possible way of knowing how many buyers are part of this "subset" in order make any claims about sales one way or another. You don't know if most are part of this subset or if they aren't.

    "Why else would the S500 sometimes outsell the S430? Aren't there fewer people able to afford the S500 because of its higher price?"

    We're talking about a person who is already interested in what is to start a 77K vehicle so the jump to 86K isn't nearly the stretch is from the average LS transaction price of 63K. You don't think 14K makes a difference! Forget the S500.

    "Why would the E consistently outsell the C? Aren't there fewer people able to afford the E because of its higher price?"

    The E-Class does NOT outsell the C-Class.

    "More content at a higher price can sometimes outsell lower content at a lower price, despite the affordability factor. So again I’ll say that If the S and LS were equally desirable in every way except prestige, the S could be priced somewhat higher than the LS and still sell the same number of units."

    Only on this board, not in reality. You're talking a difference of 14K or more for the average LS compared to a base S-Class. There is no way you can excpect these cars to sell equally no matter how good or prestigious any buyer might think the S-Class is or its content, there are many more who aren't going to even look at a car that much more expensive. You're talking about a car that sells on average for 63K compared to one that starts at 77K and goes to 86K for base prices. Now unless you have something that shows where the most expensive LS (what is it now 72-73K) is their most popular seller then you have no point here.

    They guy who walks in an get a LS430 loaded up past 70K is easily able to get a S430 or even a S500, but the guy that finds the LS in the 60s to be his ideal comfort level normally can't just say hey I have another 14-20K for a different car.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    How many times do we have to go over this? I said that price is but one factor, among others like reliability, dealer service, etc. etc. all those things that Lexi love to gloat about. No one here every said that price was the sole reason.

    "As pointed out here, the lease difference b/w a $75K S430 is only about a couple hundred $ higher than a $63K LS430. Are you implying that a greater proportion of those who lease the LS430 cannot afford to lease an S430 ? Yet the S430 sells so pitifully against the LS430. I submit that price is the least of the factor, especially consdiering the higher prestige of the MB over the Lexus. But of course, you have your position which is unshakeable, so let us move on...."

    Seriously, everyone doesn't lease. You really seem to forget this. Of course a few hundred dollars shouldn't, and I say shouldn't make a difference for a buyer in this segment, but this is all irrelevant to a person buying with cash and/or financing. I think you realize how one sided your example is.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Also:

    "The second-generation Boxster is Porsche's second hit of the quarter - despite its launch in the cold month of January. In the first three months, Boxster U.S. sales were 1,752 units, up 85.8 percent from the year-ago period.

    The entry Boxster costs $44,595, including shipping.

    The Boxster competes with roadsters such as the Mercedes-Benz SLK, which was redesigned last fall and showed an increase of 225.3 percent for the first quarter. Sales for the quarter were 3,113 units. The BMW Z4, on the other hand, was down 23 percent in the first three months, with sales of 1,909."


    [Source: link title]

    The Z4 is getting killed, time for a facelift and a "M" version I'd say. Porsche is red hot though and like the article hints most of the country is just thawing out.

    M
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    How ironic it is. With 911 sales at 1744 units for the quarter and Boxster at 1752 the article goes on to say this:

    “The Cayenne SUV was Porsche's sore spot. U.S. sales were 3,093 units, down 23.3 percent from the first quarter of 2004.”

    I hope MB learned a lesson with SLK. Actually, I hope EVERYONE learned a lesson because of it. Are you listening BMW?
Sign In or Register to comment.