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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I think ljflx and Pat are right, I guess I give up trying to get through to you on this point. My parting shot...

    Now that the S350 is available at dealers, we won't have to scrounge around for sales data showing how it is selling vs the S500. With a $21k price difference fewer people can afford the S500, so it will just have to sell fewer units than the S350, right? Who cares what the real numbers are?
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I posted a few days ago that the June Car & Driver has a column about diesel prospects, pointing out that 2006 clean air standards will make diesel cars more expensive in the US, and predicting that with the higher vehicle cost (and diesel fuel already slightly more expensive per gallon), drivers will be looking at 200,000 mile breakeven times. So if economy is part of the reason for buying diesel, I would look at a E320 CDI this year.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    MB is really dealing the S-class, as would be expected in a last year run. Remember they threw in AWD for free and they have priced leases as low as I've ever seen. They've dropped me a few mailers in the past year and they are (or were) doing some 2 year holdover deals to the new car. Notwithstanding that I'm not surprised that the S still holds up well. The LS and the S really satisfy the largest percentage of the buyers in this segment the best. As I said once before if the LS wasn't around I'd go straight to MB and say my prayers on reliability. I'd also say that some buyers may be worried about first year problems with the new car and some may think the new car will be a drop-off in looks from the current car. Just guessing on the latter points though.

    You have to add the CLS sales to the E IMO in evaluating that segment, But the dropoff in BMW car sales has to have them a bit perturbed in Germany. BMW is also doing some real attractive lease programs right now on the 5. They seem to have real low lease prices every year in this April-May time frame.

    Lastly - is it just me or are others noticing the slugfest in advertising on 24 between Lexus, MB and BMW. I'm still bothered by the terrorists driving LS430 and GS cars.Ford and Lexus seem to be the cars on this years show run.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    One thing I found interesting in the April sales numbers is this:

    The new M-class, which I percieve as having gotten favorable reviews in the autorags, in April still sold 58% less units than the segment-leading RX330 (and to be conservative here I have excluded the RX400h from the comparison).

    The new GS, on the other hand, in April trailed the segment-leading 5-series by a lesser amount, 30%.

    Maybe another sign that MB's quality issues are having some impact...
  • stroudmanstroudman Posts: 192
    I won't hold it against the market if the new M-class comes out of the gate a little slowly. Knowing what I do about the improvements in the most recent cars, I wouldn't hesitate to lease or buy one, but I don't fault anyone who says "you get one first, and I'll watch and see what happens."
    Not that I want to re-ignite this ever revolving arguement, but just curious - what does an RX330 with the basics - leather, roof, navigation, 6-disc - price out at? An M-class with that gear on it would be $46k-ish.
  • Doing this very quickly I come up with about $45,000 however I suspect a couple of 1000 could probably be saved by buying one of the packages...

    I have sun roof, heated seats, CD changer, GPS, and 4 Wheel Drive.

    With both cars priced about he same would that shoot a hole in Mercs...It's the price theory...if the RX 330 outsells the M class.
  • 00boxsters00boxsters Posts: 202
    2005 RX330awd = $45,083 with nav. package per their website
  • stroudmanstroudman Posts: 192
    I think it would be harder to isolate any single factors in the mid-size, lux SUV market b/c there is a much broader range of product within a $10k price range to choose from. I do believe the RX has had a longer run, popularity-wise, as a "car-like" SUV given its car platform, which in this market has turned out to be what more people wanted. Plenty of people told me they thought the ML rode rougher than the RX, and it did. And there is no question that the RX, while having a couple of problems, was a Maytag compared to the 1st gen ML, which has certainly turned a lot of people off.(to the ML)
    Also, in the SUV market, there are more middle income, discount motivated buyers, and if what you say is true, and Lexus carries a 12-15% markup, which I would find easy to believe since it shares platforms with the camry, rav-4, highlander, and ES, then they have more room to negotiate. And I can promise you, even if it's not the way you think, lots of people in this tier of the market will buy the choice B car, if they're getting the bigger discount on that car. Just today I lost a deal on an ML500, to a cadillac SLR, which in mine and his opinion is an inferior vehicle which will also depreciate much quicker.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    "you get one first, and I'll watch and see what happens"

    That's exactly how I feel about MB. Management promises notwithstanding, I wouldn't buy one in year one due to quality concerns.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    Just curious, how much would a new base AWD S Class cost once all the pushing and shoving are done?

    On another note, I'm surprised that there isn't much discussion here of the Bentley Continental and that there is absolutely no mention of the Arnage. For those that don't want to spend more than 200K on a new Arnage, a MY2000 Arnage is in the same price range as a new S Class and probably has more reliabilty, more distinction and perhaps a lower cost per mile (because the big hit has already been taken). The three to five year old Bentleys that I have seen have very low (e.g., 10,000) miles on them and would be a great daily driver for the person that spends S Class money.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    ...sales without the hype ....

    Hype or fact is always in the eye of the beholder...

    ..... but to me this GS450h makes the current GS430 look pointless. That GS460 had better be some kind of improvement over the GS430 otherwise Lexus will be killing off one of its own models.

    Toyota plans to make hybrids as common as, say, an option you choose at the dealership, like a CD changer, moonroof, Nav, etc... So get used to hybrids as commodities in the US market. Now that Toyota plans to build a hybrid Camry in their Kentucky plant, look out ! Cheaper to build (local) and cheaper to purchase, they will become the de facto default choice of buyers, given the economics of benefit-to-cost considerations.

    OTOH, Lexus plans to make the hybrid versions of their products the *premium* model. So consider a GS460 with 350/350 HP/TQ, and priced at, say $55K base. The GS450h, churning out about 360-375HP/400 Ibft of torque will be priced $5-10K higher (base). The catch: Higher mileage, less pollution, cleaner environment for everyone (especially our kids and seniors), and of course MUCH FASTER than a comparable naturally-aspirated V8 GS460.
  • rgswrgsw Posts: 333
    "My local Lexus dealer charges $90-95 for a simple oil change."
    I'm not going to take my LS to ZipLube even if it is less expensive. When I purchased the LS, I made a decision to use the Lexus Service at least until the warranty had expired. I knew the cost would be more than the GMC Yukon that I was driving, but I considered the increased cost was part of the "Pursuit of Perfection".
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Now that the S350 is available at dealers, we won't have to scrounge around for sales data showing how it is selling vs the S500. With a $21k price difference fewer people can afford the S500, so it will just have to sell fewer units than the S350, right? Who cares what the real numbers are?"

    I guess you do. The S350 is a last minue addition and isn't going to just soar past established models in the last 7-13 months of the current S-Class. Mercedes didn't even tell anyone that the S350 was coming, heck I didn't even know until I checked their website. They aren't even promoting the car, its a place holder.

    "The new M-class, which I percieve as having gotten favorable reviews in the autorags, in April still sold 58% less units than the segment-leading RX330 (and to be conservative here I have excluded the RX400h from the comparison)."

    So what? Talk about hype. The ML just came out during the month of April, like towards the middle. They wouldn't have had that many built to outsell the segment leader in the introductory month.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    But the dropoff in BMW car sales has to have them a bit perturbed in Germany. BMW is also doing some real attractive lease programs right now on the 5. They seem to have real low lease prices every year in this April-May time frame.

    Why would they be worried about a dropoff in sales when their main car, the 3-Series is doing a model change over? This is what happens all the time. Nothing for anyone to worry about. The 5-Series was way up and come this month the newly facelifted 7-Series goes on sale. Not that this applies to you in particuar, but this board never seems to be able apply basic logic to sales numbers. If they drop its a crisis and if they don't shoot through the roof there is a problem, yet all of this only applies to BMW, MB and Audi, not any of Lexus' previous duds. A vehicle comes out in the middle of the month and yet its supposed to overtake or catch the existing sales leader, yet because it doesn't there is an issue. Totally Ridiculous.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "So consider a GS460 with 350/350 HP/TQ, and priced at, say $55K base. The GS450h, churning out about 360-375HP/400 Ibft of torque will be priced $5-10K higher (base). The catch: Higher mileage, less pollution, cleaner environment for everyone (especially our kids and seniors), and of course MUCH FASTER than a comparable naturally-aspirated V8 GS460."

    So in other words the GS450h makes the GS460 pointless then. Good luck on the GS450h producing those kind of hp numbers. When a company says "over 300" they usually mean like 320 or so. The hp/torque numbers your guesstimating aren't going to make the GS450h that much fast than the regular GS460. If the GS450h is only 5-10K more why would I want a GS460? The rest reads like like Lexus Service Announcement.

    M
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi All,
    That article is really starting to get me excited about the upcoming E320 CDI. Sounds like MB has a real winner on their hands. Unfortunately I can't get it here in MA because of the emissions laws. I wonder if it is possible to sneak a used one in somehow. I can't imagine MB discounting this car too much because of the limited numbers. What is the typical discount on a MB car? (I know this varies from model to model) When buying a Lexus I wouldn't even consider it unless I'm getting 10% off. When I was shopping for the S430 the guy was only giving me about 5-6% off on a new one, and even less on a used one.

    The 5-10K Premium on a GS hybrid is crazy...I'd pay 3K maybe for the hybrid drivetrain..Maybe that is where the market exists for a gasoline GS460. 5-10K is a pretty significant amount especially in that price range. If they can manage to sell the hybrids at a 5-10K premium, then Toyota must be laughing all the way to the bank.

    SV
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Talk about hype. The ML just came out during the month of April, like towards the middle.

    That's odd, on another Edmunds board someone posted:

    Yeah I'm reading in other MB forums that the new ML is due like on March 19th or so?
    merc1, "2006 Mercedes-Benz M-Class" #18, 13 Mar 2005 6:33 pm

    Guess who posted it? Some fellow named merc1. Guess that Germans-are-supermen attitude caused a little mixup on the dates? ;)

    If you want to let the M-class season a little before seeing if it has re-captured segment leadership, fine by me. We'll check again down the road.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You should be able to get the new V6 diesel in your state once low-sulfur fuel is madatory in 2006.

    Hard to say what the discount is on a Benz until you talk specific models. AMG and hard to get models are less so than final run models of course.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You're right on the dates, I was thinking March not April.

    Either way it still doesn't make a bit of difference as there is no way the ML is going to catch the sales leader in 40 days or so on the market. To even suggest that there is a problem because it didn't is like I said - ridiculous. The ML will probably never sell in the volumes of the RX anyway, I really don't expect it too. Doesn't mean its a failure either.

    M
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