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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Sorry for the cross-post... (Posted in ELLPS, LPS, and HELM) Since the news applies to all of these cars, didn't want to leave anybody out! :P

    BMW Announces New iPod Interface With Expanded Model Availability and Features
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    You know, benzster, it is not beyond the realm of logic to consider that the LS600hL could truly be sophisticated enugh to challenge Lexus's own reliability statistics. After all, can Lexus, or anyone for that matter, have so darn much going on in one car, and still not have any significant service issues? When we consider ultra sophisticated transportation, have we ever thought of these words? . . . "Houston, we have a problem."

    This LS600hL is going to make a major statement to the world about Lexus' capabilities. Even though it won't sell in giant numbers, it WILL represent Lexus in a big way . . . bigger in "image" than in units sold. If it works as planned, and delivers all that performance and does so efficiently without service issues, and at the same time provides so many techno goodies that also work without a hitch, all the while continuing for years as a reliable vehicle . . . if it really does it all and does it well . . . then you've got to admit, it will set a benchmark of sorts. The bar will be raised for sure.

    Otherwise it's . . . "Houston, we have a problem".

    If history is any guide, however, then I think it's conceivable that Lexus reliability might actually pose a challenge to NASA ;)

    :)

    TagMan
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    You are sounding more and more like a true Lexican :) :) :) When it comes to the LS600hL, there seems to be no greater believer or supporter than you and DrFill.... Strange bedfellows, certainly, but one I'd take in a heart-beat... :)

    Everyone knows Lexus needs a sedan above the LS4XX, so the 600hL is that sedan. But would there be another sedan slotted b/w the LS4xx and the 600hL ? Who knows ? But it begs the question: which other car would that 5L V8 be used in ??? IS, GS, LS, or the new and upcoming JX.... Enquiring minds will like to know.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    An IS500 has been widely speculated. I think the JX is supposed to have a 5.7 liter engine.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Something tells me Lexus will restrict the volume of the 600h to no more than 2k for 2007.

    Although Lexus doesn't really have a history of limiting itself to low sales volumes.

    I guess if they get 2k orders by this time next year, and it roars into the market, like the SC430 did way back in 2001, then they may sell 5-6k! Who knows? :confuse:

    DrFill
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Although Lexus doesn't really have a history of limiting itself to low sales volumes.

    Ehm... Not quite. The 2007 GS450h was limited to 2K production in MY2007. We'll see how it performs in the market.

    I guess if they get 2k orders by this time next year, and it roars into the market, like the SC430 did way back in 2001, then they may sell 5-6k!

    That would be outstanding !! But I doubt that much volume... This car will be a limited production as well. Maybe even a 1K production run. But with a 1-yr head start, Lexus may be trying to gauge the level of interest to determine production run... Cars in this range are in the 1K or less in total annual sales, of course they are priced out of reach of main car buyers at $110K and above. But if Lexus can price the 600hL at or below $100K, they should reach whatever sales target they set.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    This is sheer speculation, but since Lexus seems to want the LS600 to be its "halo" model for the near term, doesn't that suggest relatively high pricing (by Lexus standards) and small volumes?

    $100k?
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    The GS450h just came out.... like.... last week, so I wouldn't say that is an established precedent.

    The hype for the GS450h and this car is no comparison. 1k or 2k could be pre-ordered by this time next year easily.

    As a matter of fact, I'd be surprised if it didn't get 1000 pre-orders by next April! :D

    I'll look up what sales numbers to expect.

    DrFill
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,677
    Depends on their longer-term strategy both from a higher-end car over the LS (that has been rumored) and a hybrid strategy standpoint. Somehow I don't get the feeling that Lexus only wants to sell 2K hybrid LS cars a year. But if they make this a halo car than they need to keep volume to about 2500 cars or less.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    True...

    But, a loaded S550 can reach $103K, and it has only a V8 motor. A loaded 750iL can reach $90K also with a V8. Using these as benchmark numbers, a loaded LS460L should be in the $80 - 90K range, IMO. Add in the bigger V8, AWD, hybrid, CVT, slight styling change, a few other gizmos, and you can see $12 - 20K mark-up on the 600hL over the 460L. I will say the 600hL should then be in the low low $100K tops. Still a relative bargain compared to the S600 and 760iL.

    All speculations, of course ;)
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    That was my point in Post #14802.

    In August 2005, BMW had only sold 382 760Li, YTD.

    They sold 46 this January, 54 last January.

    I'll presume Mercedes is selling 100-300% of that, so lets give an S600 1500 sales a year?

    Could a LS600L get 1000 in 8 months of 2007? Maybe.

    I think outselling the 760 should be an initial goal, then we'll reassess.

    With the Hybrid tech, AWD for Northern markets, hype, and substantial value, I'd try to get to 1000 units.

    I wonder what Merc thinks is realistic? :blush:

    DrFill
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,476
    Nissan had a fairly large RWD sedan with a CVT tranny that was only sold in Japan. I don't remember the name although I might be able to track it down.

    Well after a little looking I think the model I was thinking was called the Bluebird.

    Here are a couple of articles.

    http://www.nissan-global.com/GCC/Japan/NEWS/19991013_0e.html

    http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2005/March-2005/Mar-2005-1/Mar-02-05-p9.htm
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    No rip snorting for the ES any time soon. While it is a brand new car, its already been in the mags, and you can always read the Edmunds review:

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=109687
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    with a 1-yr head start, Lexus may be trying to gauge the level of interest to determine production run

    Exactly, oac. Bullseye.

    There is good concensus here that production on the LS600hL will be somewhat limited, but also lots of speculation of course.

    Consider that Lexus has had enough history of pre-orders on some of its vehicles to statistically extrapolate just how many pre-orders turn out to be bonafide sales. Assuming good communication with its dealer network, Lexus can make a very reasonable prediction regarding true demand and projected sales after a period of time of pre-orders. Production calculations and projections can then be made with greater assurance and Lexus will ultimately determine with strategic deliberation just how many LS600hL's it should manufacture. Now is that sweet or what? It's an enviable position any business would love to be in.

    :)

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well its going to be hard enough to get a diesel to be 50-state legal so imagine the engineering nightmare of getting that plus a brand new hybrid system to work with that. A daunting task for even Mercedes-Benz. Toyota has spent an untold amount in R&D on hybrids because no one else really had the cash to do it. A diesel-hybrid is at least 5 years off and it will be sold in Europe mainly, IMO. The Germans will do gas hybrids here and diesels over there IMO.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    We'll see what happens, but you don't appear to have recovered yet. :surprise:

    I see you're making predictions about where the sales will come from, yet really the only folks really ogling about it so far are current Lexus folks.

    I don't know what would be realistic as far as sales for a car like the LS600h until they price it. If it under 100K I can't see them limiting it to 2K a year. I'd sell at least 3K or more. Now if really does come in at 125K then 1-2K at best would be the goal. Oac is right about them likely introducing the car so early so they can gauge demand. This car will either soar or flop there won't be much middle ground, IMO.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Some of the german fans were crowing about MB jumping from 5 to 7 speed AT....now Lexus leapfrogs to..."infinity and beyond"!

    I seem to remember more than a few Lexusfans saying that a 7-Speed was pointless, I guess that is no longer the case with Lexus coming out with an 8-speed.

    M
  • The germans and the Japanese and everybody else will take different routes. The Germans are leaders in diesel and they will move towards diesel-hybrids.

    Japanese will improve their diesel know-how and then use their advanced hybrid systems to get a japanese version of diesel hybrids.

    I think all major OEM's will sell both gas-hybrids and diesel-hybrids in all continents. The localization will slowly dissolve into larger global context.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I think you're correct here, I can see a 100K price or maybe a little over that just for image, but not 125K. A 125K price would kill the value aspect for a lot of folks.

    M
  • Who wants to bet with me on pricing. I say it wont exceed $85K base MSRP.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You're likely right, but a diesel hybrid is going to be a mightly expensive car. I mean Mercedes can sell one at the S-Class level, but at the E-Class level it would be ridiculously priced out of the E's market segment making it pointless IMO. Diesels already cost a little more than their gas counterparts, then adding a hybrid system....$$$$$$$ :surprise:

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Place your bets while the going is good folks!

    A - 80-90K
    B - 90-100K
    C - 100K and beyond

    I vote B.

    M
  • Impossible I say. If Lexus wants to go in 100K plus territory it will have to offer something more than a V8 or V8-hybrid.

    Something which will compete directly no cylinders barred with S600.

    Thats just the nature of the market. A V8 or a hybrid-V8 wont do here.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    That statement is going to set off alarms!

    M
  • I vote A

    and I throw an open challenge to anybody who votes any other than A. You will lose! Thats as assured as the sun rising from the east tomorrow morning.
  • It wont exceed 430 hp. On the other hand I suspect all the benefit of extra power will evaporate if the power to weight ratio is not better than LS 460 L.

    Ask any Ferrari or Porsche engineer and they will tell you that its not power but power to weight ratio that matters.

    Thats why S65 AMG shows very little improvement over S600. Even edmunds admits it.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Thats why S65 AMG shows very little improvement over S600. Even edmunds admits it.

    Nah I think its traction in the case of the Benzes with their superhero torque.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    A timely article on hybrids.

    It really does touch on all the points made here by everyone I think.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Well I'll only speak for myself, but when MB introduced the 7-speed I think I said something like "Yes, I want one, the mileage and acceleration will be slightly better but I think there are diminishing returns...the benefit of going from 6 to 7 is less than that of going from 4 to 5."

    I don't think I exactly trumpeted the 8 speed in the LS460 as being a major revolution, maybe other people did.

    And I hope you'll admit that going to effectively infinite gear ratios as in the CVT of the LS600 is a "bigger" jump from MB's 7-speed than MB's 7-speed was versus its competition at the time of introduction.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I also vote B. My guess is the base version goes in the low 90s and the fully loaded (reclining back seat etc) near 100.
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