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High End Luxury Cars

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  • xjs5xjs5 Posts: 33
    Post 208, 7 Series board says:

    The car (2001 BMW 7 L) rides more like a sports car than a luxury car. It's just to tight and you feel every bump in the road. If I wanted a sports car I would have bought one.

    He or she talks about other cars owned including various American cars and a Jaguar.

    pablo1 writes: taut character is more a sign of dated chassis than of performance-orientation.

    With all due respect the 7 Series does have a different character than the LS430. It is performance oriented. The above post was upset that the BMW did not ride like a Cadillac. What is modern about that.

    Mercedes fans spent 10 years saying the LS400 was nothing but a fake LS400. Now a 7 Series is an inferior Lexus? Is the IS a more modern 3 Series?
    My advice is: do not believe that every cookie cutter cuts to the shape of a Lexus or the Mercedes it famously copied- if you do you might end up like the owner above with a car you hate.
  • denniswadedenniswade Posts: 362
    replying in kind to something you consider absurd is equally absurd.

    A taut suspension is not a sign of inferior design -- it's the direct recult of tuning the suspension more for handling than ride, and is something at which BMW excels. Even the vaunted Mercedes has so far been unable to duplicate BMW's wonderful mix of handling and ride. Lexus concentrates more on ride and NVH -- and excels at that.

    None of these cars are a fake anything -- they all reflect their creators' attempts to offer the finest luxury car possible in that price category, and they all succeed in some areas to the detriment of others. The BMW probably succeeds best overall, with a wonderful sense of balance, luxury, performance and ride. It also has styling that smokes the competition, in my opinion.

    The only thing that seems to stick in some peoples' craw is the similarity of the LS430 styling to the previous generation S-class. That's obviously not something that bothers the people who buy them..
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    ...how can the 7-series still be regarded as "performance oriented" when it is the heaviest car in this group and the slowest from 0-60? If it's sports prowess you want, go for an M5.
  • denniswadedenniswade Posts: 362
    In the test AutoWorld conducted, the 740's 6.4 came in a close second to the LS430's identical 6.4 (the Lexus edged it in the 1/4 mile), even though it outweighs the Lexus by more than 300 lbs. AutoWorld called the 740's drivetrain "to die for."

    The Mercedes came in well behind, at 7.1.

    Everything is relative -- in this group of cars, the BMW is clearly the most sports-oriented -- although it is no sports car, nor does it pretend to be.

    Look at me, defending BMW's honor! I crack myself up....
  • blehrlichblehrlich Posts: 92
    In every test I've seen, the MB S500 does 0-60 in 6.1 sec, LS430 in 6.3 sec (these agree with Lexus & MB brochures). Not bad for 4133 lb.(MB) and 3955 lb. (LS) cars. For my extra $$, I can beat the #$@% out of an LS by almost a quarter of a second!
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    The BMW 740i, with automatic (which is what everybody seems to order them with) is decidedly slower than any of the other cars, including the Jag.

    Needless to say, none of these cars, even with stick, comes close to the XJR's acceleration. That said, *I* did not buy the XJR for "sports orientation". It would be quite a weird line of thought to buy any of these cars if one wants something that even remorelty resembles a sportscar. That is, again, M5 territory. Or get a real sportscar.
  • denniswadedenniswade Posts: 362
    Apples to oranges -- the S500 is a V12, is it not? And how much more do you have to pay for that option? Ditto the XJR.

    V8 to V8, the Lexus wins, followed by the BMW, with the Mercedes and Jaguar training badly.

    Sorry.

    PS -- when Lexus introduces its V12, we can revisit this comparison.
  • rexconde1rexconde1 Posts: 278
    no the S500 is not a v12
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    The XJR is entirely in the price range of the cars in here, if averages the Lexus to Merc range. The XJR is easily in the range of the BMW price-wise, and actually is *much* faster than any of these. 5.4s to 60 or so, if you believe mags. With 370HP and the lightest weight (though no lightweight), there is no doubt. But I am still not saying it is a "better" car. I am just saying that all in all, the BMW 7-series perception as the "sports" option is anchored in history, not in current product reality. Not that the BMW is not a great car.

    And the V12 is the S600 or CL600 in the Merc line. 500s are still V8s.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    ...you should really run the comparisons on cars.com before making such performance rankings. I know I did before buying.
  • denniswadedenniswade Posts: 362
    was repeat what the latest comparison test of these cars said.

    For the record, the cars tested were:

    Mercedes S430 with 4,3L V8, at $78,305
    BMW 740iL with 4.4L V8, at $71,070
    Jaguar XJ8L with 4.0L V8, at $65,950
    Lexus LS430 with 4.3L V8, at $61,171

    Those were the models that most closely approximated each other, price-wise. My point was that you can get better performance from all three European cars, but you'll have to pay more for it, thereby increasing the price gap between them and the Lexus. However, if performance is your bag (as it is mine), it would be well worth your while, I'm sure. Glad you like your car!
  • bwhbwh Posts: 76
    I'm glad this discussion came back to include the 7 series cars. Yesterday we dropped off the 750 for some service. This thread has really spurred my interest in the Lexus. So my wife and I decided to take a close look at one. They did not have the Ultra Lux version availible for a drive, we took the model one step below U.L. I had always argued that I liked the 7 series for its sporting nature and that the Lexus was too soft. Well after an extended drive I recind that arguement. What amazed me was that My 750 has a much smoother and quieter ride than the LS430. The tires on the Lexus registered every bump in the road, and the road noise on the highway was LOUD for a car said to be so luxurious.Honestly, I am not posting this in a attempt to stir the pot. My wife was also amazed at how loud (relatively) the LS was. I told the salesman that I was very much impressed by the way the car drove. It is a huge improvement over the LS400 in my opinion. But there is no way the Lexus has a quieter, smoother ride than my 750. This comparison includes the 750 running on 18" 50 series front and 45 series performance tires over Minnesotas spring potholes. I also like the BMW interior much better than the Lexus with the MB a distant third. I looked in the passenger foot well and there was an ugly white plastic duct that resembles a dryer vent. The ducts under the seats as well are too exposed and ugly in the LS. The myriad of rear controls on the LS ultra were pretty neat. Getting a massage in back is a cool little perk. What doesn't work for me are the rear seat recliners that reduce legroom as they recline. BMW does this better as well. At 6'3" I found rear headroom to be thin as well. I am spoiled on the LWB BMW. The NAV system on the Lexus is clearly the best on the market, I really like the voice prompts and the multi color display.

    I was VERY impressed with the Lexus, we may arrange a drive in the Ultra Lux. But I think I still prefer the BMW. The 750 is quieter, smoother, more powerful, better looking, and far more spacious. Crappy dealers and too many visits to them have spurred the consideration of the Lexus. I found the role reversal interesting, my conception of the comparison was very different before yesterday.

    And BTW the dealer told me the Euro Tuned suspension on the Lexus has been dropped. Is this the case? I would be interested in driving that one as well.
  • denniswadedenniswade Posts: 362
    says that the Lexus with the sport suspension rides more firmly than the Merc or Jag, but rated it tops for engine, road and wind noise; it tied for first on ride, with Merc. Interestingly, they said the BMW's fit and finish inside and out were bested only by the Lexus -- counter to your impression. And they did say that although the BMW's ride is the stiffest in the group, it never felt harsh. I wonder if the Lexus' tires had anything to do with the impact harshness you experienced.

    I imagine that the LWB BMW would have a more supple ride due to the longer wheelbase and greater weight, and would certainly have more legroom. It's a gorgeous car in any case. If BMW had the Lexus customer experience, they'd be unstoppable.
  • bwhbwh Posts: 76
    Yes the tires admittedly did factor in. The Lexus was fitted with Bridgestone Blizzaks. I am still concerned though because I ran Michelin Arctic Alpins all winter on the BMW and never noticed THAT much noise. I also think the double pane windows fitted to the 750 made a substantial difference in wind and road noise intrusion. I don't think the double panes are availible on 740s and I know they are not on the M-B or Lexus.

    It wasn't that the fit and finish was poor by any stretch. I just didn't care for the execution of a couple of details.

    I agree wholeheartedly on the customer service end. While they were really kissing butt this time around, there was a reason. The last time the car was in for service they put over 300 miles on the car without clearing it with me. The guy that drove it moved in, new radio staitions, and power seat settings in memory. In addition the simple fact that it needs a dealer visit at all, as new as it is, bothers me. This is the trade off I willingly made though when I bought the car. I do wonder about a Euro Tuned suspension on the LS430, was the salesman correct, is it dead?
  • I have a 97 750il and am looking to trade on a 2001 LS430. The ultra and "base" Lexuses I drove both had fine rides and were very quiet. The dealership did have two sport models on the lot.

    Service at my BMW dealership is O.K., but I have to visit too often. The last visit they reversed my power window button. Their loaner cars, if you can get one, are old, dirty VW Jettas.
  • bwhbwh Posts: 76
    Did you notice much/any difference between the two suspensions? I know the Ultra is an air suspension.

    Maybe it was the tires. The only problem is that I would have to live with that noise 6 months out of the year. My 750 is pretty quiet on snows.

    Fortunately my dealer offers new 323s as loners. The other dealer in town sticks you in a Taurus. Pure purgatory after dropping off a 750.
  • denniswadedenniswade Posts: 362
    "Service at my BOW dealership is O.K., but I have to visit too often. The last visit they reversed my power window button. Their loner cars, if you can get one, are old, dirty WV Jettas."

    Sounds like you've got a really dim-bulb dealer. I honestly can't imagine a normal BOW (or any other luxury brand) dealer sticking the owner of a 750iL in a Jetty -- that's just pure stupidity.

    Brent: The EM Bridge stones on ALL Toyota and nexus products are universally abhorred. I switched to Sumitomos and never looked back -- my wife's Celica is next.
  • denniswadedenniswade Posts: 362
    I ran spell check on my last post, and it substituted BOW for BMW. Looks like Edmunds' spell check is a dim bulb too! LOL

    Oh yeah -- that's "Jetta" (not "Jetty") in the second paragraph and "OEM" tires in the last paragraph (not "EM"). "Bridge stones" was supposed to be one word (not a construction material), and the brand is "Lexus" -- not "nexus".

    Whew!!!
  • ddp3595ddp3595 Posts: 1
    I am thinking of buying a 94 320 S with 111,000 miles. Other than the miles the car is stunning...please give your thoughts on long term maintenance and what you think I can expect in terms of overall value. Are the miles too high??

    Thanks for your help!!
  • drew_drew_ Posts: 3,382
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