Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





High End Luxury Cars

1469470472474475771

Comments

  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I won't automatically hand a win to the S550 when it goes against the LS460L. How do you know the S would be dynamically better than the LS ? No one has tested the new LS yet, so we don't know. And the past is certainly no judge of the future for this new LS. Do you recall the Dec 2004 C&D (or is it MT ? I forget) comparo which the LS430 won against its peers ? In that comparo, the S430 came in almost dead last. So I'd wait to see what the S550 v LS460L v 750iL yields. That should be a fun comparo...
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    My guess is that the fastest Lexus sedan will probably be an IS460 or IS500, with 380-400hp. I also dont think that they have any real desire to try and compete with Mercedes on the 63\65AMG level.

    Infiniti could be another matter though. The M is much more "Germanic" than the GS, and could very conceivably have over 400hp in a few more years. I dont see Lexus using their V-10 in any of their sedans, but the GT-Rs upcoming 450+hp, 3.8L twin turbo engine could show up in an Infiniti product.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "BMW's and Benzes are not very healthy cars. They are like sick children on steroids."

    Is there a point to posting this?
    Thanks for the laugh! :P
  • Sometimes I like to hit a nerve with merc1 on this. All in good humor, everyone knows what I am poking fun at ;)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    But most americans love V8, no matter how much power Infiniti, porsche and honda keep squeezing from 6-cyl, there is something about 8-cyl which you cannot have from 6-cyl.

    Its pure passion. 10-cyl and 12-cyl is even better.


    IMO, I think there is a word for it:

    TORQUE

    What is horsepower without it's dear friend torque? Oh yes . . . Horsepower + Torque = [fill in the blank], and everyone say amen. :)

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I still think that one reason MB might be holding off on an S450 might be to force the auto rags to use the S550 in comparos...so that MB has a better chance of winning.

    Yeah I've thought about that one too. I really don't blame them if they are because all this talk about the LS beating the S-Class has been incorrectly hyped for years when the LS has only beaten one member of the "S-Class", the S430. It has never (that I've seen) beaten the S500, but I have seen the S500 beat the LS430 in MT when the LS430 and S500 were fairly new.

    Everything I've read at other MB sites suggests that with around 25K sold so far (worldwide) this year that production is at full capacity so an entry-level S isn't needed right now. The S450 was to be a U.S. only model and it isn't needed now obviously. I suspect we'll see a S450 after MB goes direct-injection on all their petrol engines which will be in 2008 so it we be more competitive hp wise.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Things will be very different this time for sure. The S550 won't be the oldest car in the class like the S430 was and it will be a current model year version unlike that 2003 S430 they used.

    M
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Any bets on when the Lexcuses will start?

    ;-)
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    My guess is that victory between the S550 and LS460 will depend on how much the reviewers value the price difference between the two cars. If price is no object, the win will probably go to Mercedes. If it is, Lexus may have a shot. Who wins what in which automag ultimately isn't that terribly important to me. The Lexus wins in my own garage.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Well said. Is there any chance you won't like what you see when you get to road test the LS or are you confident it will do the trick when it arrives? Poor little 750, A8 and XJ won't be good fuh nuttin' in the comparos? I can see the LS faring better in MT and struggling in R&T. The latter take the "Track" part of their name quite seriously. You have to catch the reviewers who like lux to begin with. I guess this isn't an easy class to review objectively.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I've finally received my info pack on the soon-to-be released Jaguar XK. The car is incredibly different from the one it replaces. Torsional stiffness is said to be up 60%(what's this thing made of, a bank vault). The interior quality is a mix of traditional Jag with a hint of new ideas.

    I do have some reservations about it though. IMHO, I think that the engineers could've spent more time focusing on the front-end of the car as it is not befitting of a Jag nor the $70k(est.) asking price, more so a Ford convertible, not Jag. The powertrain, while still refined, want stir up any debates. With only 300-hp(sounds like a lot, but this car ways over 2 tons), it's just not competitve anymore. I know there will be the XKR(and later the XKR-R), but those are forced-induction cars. And with companies like Mercedes switching back to normal aspiration, it seems unnecessary for superchargers and more or less like not spending time or money to develop hi-po sophisticated engines(long ago, this used to be a Jag strong point). And it still has a cloth top, with most every high-luxury switching/ed to hard/steel top. Maybe it's tradition, as Porsche refuses to conform to steel Cab models also(huge performance issue).

    But those are small squables. The new XK should be a very good replacement for it's predecessor. Let's just hope they've increased headroom in this one.
  • melmel2melmel2 Posts: 6
    You must see the 2007 Jaguar XK in person. I saw it at the New York Auto Show. Right now, it's one of the best looking cars on the road.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    Tagman, torque is not a characteristic associated with high revving V8s. Smoothness, responsiveness, but not torque. The Ford 300 in-line six, for example, is much better in a 0-60 than the Ford 302 V8.

    Since the development of the small block Chev V8 in 1955, we have seen an abundance of high revving, oversquare (larger bore than the length of the stroke) V8s. These were developed for HP and packaging reasons, not low end torque. The torque monsters though tend to have longer strokes and are usually in-line sixes. Most Class 8 rigs run big in-line sixes for low end torque and longevity (there is room for more surface area for the rod bearing when you aren't cramming 8 rods in a Vee configuration onto a crankshaft). Have you ever seen an Army Duece and a Half with a V8? No, they want grunt, not revs. On the other hand, many modern V6s are often oversquare because they are literally just a V8 with two cylinders lopped off, eg. the recent Chev and Ford V6s.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I guess this isn't an easy class to review objectively.

    You are right. But if reviewers start from the basic fact that these cars are "luxury-full-size-sedans", then it makes the S and LS already ahead of the pack. I'd wager that if you pack an 8-speed tranny with a 380HP/370IBft motor, and do a 0-60 in under 5.5s, you'd expect some real performance from the new LS460. If it has any underpinnings like in the new IS, then it should fare well in the comparo. The new S550 is a truly nice and beautiful car, excellent reviews befitting this car, but it has yet to go head-to-head against the competition. There is where we'll see how truly great these cars are.

    Lexcuses, you say ? We'll see who would be doing this.... What would Merc1 have to say if the S550 doesn't win out over the LS460L ? I guess you can always use the 8-speed tranny in the LS as an excuse, eh ? :) But like Lexusguy, the LS460 already won in my garage, as I am biased towards buying this car. But, my wife currently has her sights on the 750i.. Huh ??? I don't get it... I guess we'll see soon enough... ;)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I too don't care much for the front end of the new XK. The nose is straight off the Ford Taurus in design. They had to do something different with the nose to meet the European pedestrian safety standards I know, but they could have at least made it look better than that. As far as I'm concerned that the only thing wrong with the new XK and even the snout looks (well hidden) better with darker colors. The new XK isn't supposed to be a 2-ton vehicle, where did you see that?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Lexcuses, you say ? We'll see who would be doing this.... What would Merc1 have to say if the S550 doesn't win out over the LS460L ?

    No where near as many excuses given by Lexicans when a Lexus (IS350, SC430 etc.) doesn't win a comparo.

    Some Lexus fans were already crying foul just because MT's speculation about the new LS (before they got the correct info) had incorrect hp and gear numbers. That was clearly a warmup for excuse making if MT doesn't put the LS460 on top.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    If they do get around to testing the new LS, it will be grudgingly, at best.

    They did mention that the new S-Class is one of the finest in the world but a little short on "sport."

    For me, not surprisingly, for these kind of serious bucks, I would go with the 750 Li, a perfect compromise between luxury and sport in the HELMREALM, IMO.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Any bets on when the Lexcuses will start?

    Well I think you and Lexusguy have pretty much summed up how it will go. It will all depending on who is doing the testing and how big the inevitable price difference will matter.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    If they do get around to testing the new LS, it will be grudgingly, at best.
    They did mention that the new S Class is a technological marvel but a little short on "sport."


    I think they're waiting until they can test all the new entries at once because they're only one of the 4 major magazines that hasn't tested the S550 yet. Even the non-testers at Automobile have had a more through writeup on the new S already.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    That indeed would be a comparo worth waiting for!
    Probably sometime in the Fall.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Tagman, torque is not a characteristic associated with high revving V8s.

    Since the development of the small block Chev V8 in 1955, we have seen an abundance of high revving, oversquare (larger bore than the length of the stroke) V8s. These were developed for HP and packaging reasons, not low end torque.

    An abundance, you say? How about an OVER-abundance! If that is what you mean, then I sure agree with you.

    As I see it, there is sometimes too much reliance upon high RPM's to deliver a rated power with not enough low end torque. Acceleration then requires too much downshifting into lower gear ratios with more RPM's to extract the engine's power.

    As you know, with the exception of certain racing applications, where horsepower and torque curves are specially modified to deliver the most torque and horsepower as needed, most typical driving conditions do better with low to mid RPM's that have sufficient torque, IMO.

    Would I be correct if I guessed that you do not prefer a high-rev engine for normal driving?

    :)

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    ...most typical driving conditions do better with low to mid RPM's that have sufficient torque, IMO. Don't you agree?

    Yes, this is why I think if people gave diesels a chance they'd catch on big time. Well that and proper marketing by MB (and others) on the advantages of modern diesels. A lot of people's perception (and knowledge) of diesels is stuck in the 80's.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,683
    Problem was that issue of MT came out long after Lexus gave out the data and the rest of the world already knew better. If I pick-up the Wall Street Journal tomorrow I expect that it has the right closing Dow on Friday. Similarly I expect MT to get it's HP figures right particularly when everyone else has them accurately.

    Lexcuses - I doubt there's a Lexus guy here that thinks the new LS will win any comparos. I certainly don't nor do I even think it's remotely important, given the fact that these guys priorities are far removed from most buyers in this segment.

    BTW - I never saw MT put out a retraction which is what a responsible pub would have done.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Problem was that issue of MT came out long after Lexus gave out the data the rest of the world already knew.

    That simply isn't true. The internet community knew about the LS, but none of the magazines for that specific month had the information yet (except Automobile that apparently goes to press later), only pictures from the concept. Wild exaggeration and hype there to say MT came out "long after" the others had the info because that isn't even close to the truth. Everyone else (monthly mags) didn't not have the infomation that particular month! Still, even if they (MT) didn't have the information when everyone else did that doesn't equate to this great "bias" or conspiracy against Lexus like you claimed at the time.

    The WSJ has nothing to do with this, they're not a monthly publication. They don't have nearly the same delay from announcement to press as a monthly publication does.

    Magazines run stories all the time on what they think a new model will have when it debuts. What MT did was nothing new and the picture they had was of the concept not the production car. Car mags don't print "retractions" for being speculative either and it has nothing to do with being a "responsible" publication either, its just way they do business. They all have a section dedicated to rumor/predictions etc. Again, a different world the WSJ.

    That whole episode was a huge unecessary overraction on your part.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,683
    I knew the data a month before I got that magazine Merc. It was a screw-up pure and simple.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Uh...we all did its called the internet, no delay in publication. I am amazed at how such a business minded person as yourself wouldn't understand the normal lag or delay that monthly magazine publishing entails.

    If I'm reading your post right, I don't see why you think the new LS won't win any comparos?

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Any bets on when the Lexcuses will start?

    Oh, and the MB crowd never makes excuses for its pet brand? Like when the S430 gets beaten in a comparo by the LS430, and the MB fans say "Well, they should have tested the S500 against the LS430".

    As if it is somehow more fair to test a 5-liter-engined car against a 4.3, when you can test a 4.3 vs a 4.3. Give me a break.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    No where near as many excuses given by Lexicans when a Lexus (IS350, SC430 etc.) doesn't win a comparo.

    Actually, Merc1, u do a fair bit of excuse making yourself. Just today you had an excuse why the LS430 beat the S430 in the MY2004 comparo - the S430 was too old ! Alrighty... That's why it will be interesting if after all these changes, the S550 does not beat the LS460L... Won't that be something !!! BTW, I fully expect that these cars will be highly competitive against each other, and unlike Len, I am not conceeding anything to the S until I see the hard facts...
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Actually, Merc1, u do a fair bit of excuse making yourself. Just today you had an excuse why the LS430 beat the S430 in the MY2004 comparo - the S430 was too old !

    Not nearly as many as you. Did you actually read the post? I said that this time it will be different as in newer cars, I didn't cut the S430 any slack for being the oldest car there. The only thing I ever said about that review as that they used a 2003 S430 with the 5-speed automatic vs the 2004 model with the 7-speed seeing as how all the other cars were 2004 models. Seeing as how C&D complained about the 5-speed tranny in that test, I think that is a fair point. Not that the tranny would have changed the overall outcome.

    Do we really want to get into all the excuses made for the SC430, IS350 and other Lexuses when they lost comparos? The list is a mile long and much more extensive than anything I've ever said about Mercedes/BMW/Audi losing a comparo.

    I wouldn't expect you to concede anything about the LS460 to the S550 at this point, they haven't been compared nor has the new LS been driven yet. I personally think the LS640 will do well. Trick Question: Will you conceed the 330i betters the IS350 or do you have a reason (excuse) as to why it doesn't?

    M
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    ...I think if people gave diesels a chance they'd catch on big time. Well that and proper marketing by MB (and others) on the advantages of modern diesels. A lot of people's perception (and knowledge) of diesels is stuck in the 80's.

    I think we will most definately see more people attracted to diesels concurrent with increased marketing in the VERY near future, as product is increased.

    TagMan
Sign In or Register to comment.