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High End Luxury Cars

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  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    It's one of those cars that the front doesn't compliment the rear, and vice versa. Not smmoth running on all edges as say an MB, Audi, or even the XK it replaces. As to the weight issue, Jag's Euro website says 3655 in coupe, and 3790 in convertible form, but the brochure has it 4066 for the convertible, a huge difference. I'll believe the 3790 first.

    BTW, the front end looks like Jag was shooting for a Aston Martin inspired design but must've got the wires crossed up on the CAD 2000 machine. And as for Europe's new pedestrian requirements on cars, Mercedes managed to effectively come up with a new front end for the new S-Class that, IMO, looks better than the one it replaces. The XK lost some of the visual attitude that the predecessor had.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    It was merely banter, my friends. I know my pal Oac got it, but some others are sulking. Sorry Syswei, couldn’t resist the term. Break is duly granted.

    So we have Lexcuses and… drum roll…

    Merc-cuses!

    Let's not take this seriously and just remember what we are… it’s been a while since I said it but need to say it again for the benefit of the newly enlisted… drum roll…

    CAR YENTAS!!!

    Now, carry on in good spirit and remember, this is now the kinder, gentler HELM forum!

    ;-)
  • melmel2melmel2 Posts: 6
    Merc1, the front end of the 2007 Jaguar XK comes from the 1960s Jaguar E-Type models. Some people have argued that the earlier Jaguar E-Type is the best looking car ever built. You can research one on ebay.com. According to Top Gear Magazine:

    "It's sonorous, it's sexy (it really, really is), it suggests of its owner a certain discretion a BMW 6-Series could never. It's indulgent, properly luxurious in a way only a British car can be.

    Considering it's 40 per cent less powerful than the XKR that will follow it in June, it's also very fast. There is something that it's not and we'll come to that in time, but there's something it absolutely is... my God, is it ever beautiful?

    No, on the road, it is a bloody beautiful car, one I guarantee will turn your head - especially now you know it's good. It's unquestionably better than the 6-Series, compellingly different to a 911 and, if you go for the cabriolet, more classy than the rather vulgar SL.

    If Maserati can make the next coupe 100 per cent better, then maybe the XK will have a rival that matches it for ability and insouciance but for now, it's got it wrapped up. It has. It really has."

    According to Car and Driver Magazine: "Once a breakthrough has been made, it seems so simple. "Why didn't we think of that?" ask the competitors.

    A six-speed automatic that makes eye-blink-quick flicks up and down through its ratios doesn't seem like rocket science. Fast responses? Of course. It's a no-brainer.

    BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus engineers will be kicking themselves after their first drives in this new XK. Jaguar got there first, with shifts "at least 400 milliseconds faster than a standard automatic and 100 milliseconds faster than the best" competitive transmissions."

    According to the thecarconnection.com: "Beautiful styling is the first reason buyers will consider the XK. Who would blame them? The other cars in this class are alien-looking creatures: XLR, 645, and SL. The XK is the sole organic shape - hippy, voluptuous, and unabashedly sensual."
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "I am amazed at how such a business minded person as yourself wouldn't understand the normal lag or delay that monthly magazine publishing entails."

    Having acquired 4 magazines for my old company, one of which is a US gold standard, I know the publishing industry a lot better than you would ever think.
  • lexus_jnlexus_jn Posts: 102
    Seems as if Porsche is left out of the discussion in this thread. Many have said Porsche sport cars are always the coolest and I don't think that statement is overstated.

    I love Lexus but I think it needs to revolutionize the sports lineup in order to take over the top spots from Porsche & Mercedes. Perhaps the next LF-A will tell whether Lexus is up to the challenge or not. However, it's
    good to see Lexus to be up there in the top 3 most prestigious brands in America along with Porsche & Mercedes.

    http://www.strategiy.com/automobilesnew.asp?id=20060417062103
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Having acquired 4 magazines for my old company, one of which is a US gold standard, I know the publishing industry a lot better than you would ever think.

    Ok I believe that, I really do, but how come you don't see what MT did as a simply what car magazines do or at best a harmless mistake. Why does it have to be a conspiracy against Lexus or some type of evil bias? Do you really think they'd get anywhere by purposely trying to downplay a car like the LS460? Your experience should tell you better.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yeah that is a shocking figure if the car does turn out to weigh 4066 lbs. If that were the case nearly all the advantage of the expensive aluminum structure is gone. We'll see.

    Yeah the XK has been called a baby Aston-Martin, but after having seen both cars up close more than a few times now I can tell the differences between the two quite easily. Mercedes had it easy designing a sedan to meet the new rules, we'll see what they come up with on the next CLK, CL and SL. The new CL we should see shortly.

    Porsche is the one that doesn't have to worry about the new regs because they don't yet make any front engined cars! How is that for lucking out!! The Panamera and new Cayenne will tell how they cope with the new rules.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Thanks for the magazine article re-hash, but I've seen the car in person (and read the articles) at least 4 times now, up close and personal so we'll just have to disagree on some things if you believe all of that. That part about the SL being vulgar is one of those things. That is like beyond ridiculous for them to say that IMO, especially when they just got finished praising the new SL550 and SL55. BTW, the magazines have just a much of a love affair going on with the SL too and it goes back longer than the XK because the previous version was never as competitive as the new one appears to be.

    Anyway I don't doubt that the new XK's styling harks back to some Jaguar that ran the streets before my time, but the new snout could have looked better IMO.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Do we really want to get into all the excuses made for the SC430, IS350 and other Lexuses when they lost comparos? The list is a mile long and much more extensive than anything I've ever said about Mercedes/BMW/Audi losing a comparo.

    Not really... But, I am hard-pressed to actually find any comparo that MB has won in quite a while. Maybe the S550 will break this jinx !!!
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Trick Question: Will you conceed the 330i betters the IS350 or do you have a reason (excuse) as to why it doesn't?

    I have a Trick answer for you Merc1: The comparos I have read have shown that these two cars - IS350 and 330i - are pretty much awash in who is #1 - C&D, Automobile had them neck-and-neck, sans a 1-pt difference. But this is not the forum to debate this. Personally, I think both cars are great and are doing real well in the market. Lexus is pretty happy with the market reception for their IS twins, and ditto BMW.

    Let's just say that BMW is not conceeding its crown to nobody anytime soon... And they do deserve the crown. I loved the e90 330i/SP I test drove a tad more than the IS350 I drove. But the IS was much better attired and luxurious than the 330i. However, both are superb cars with their own slight biases...
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I cant imagine any reason why I wont like the LS when I actually get behind the wheel. It seems to be the best LS (and best Lexus) ever. It would be nice if it had the handling, looks, and overall elegance of the Quattroporte, but I'm willing to give that up for a much more practical car. I've got the Jag for fun.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    have a Trick answer for you Merc1: The comparos I have read have shown that these two cars - IS350 and 330i - are pretty much awash in who is #1 - C&D, Automobile had them neck-and-neck, sans a 1-pt difference. But this is not the forum to debate this. Personally, I think both cars are great and are doing real well in the market. Lexus is pretty happy with the market reception for their IS twins, and ditto BMW.

    So no you wont't admit it. Excuse it is then. As always the sales/marketing stuff didn't really have anything (or weight) in this.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Not really... But, I am hard-pressed to actually find any comparo that MB has won in quite a while. Maybe the S550 will break this jinx !!!

    Well I don't think there have been any recently, but the same goes for Lexus too. I haven't seen the GS pick up but one win here at Edmunds and the new IS hasn't won anything that I know of. These are brand new Lexuses!

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Unfortunately for Jaguar, the Taurus copied them, not the other way around. Jag has had that grill design on its sports cars since the D-type, long before there ever was a Ford Taurus. The '07 XK is a little chunky in the front, but its still much more attractive than the XLR, 650, or SC430. The SL may have the exterior advantage, but the XK wins on the inside.

    image
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Seems as if Porsche is left out of the discussion in this thread. Many have said Porsche sport cars are always the coolest and I don't think that statement is overstated.

    Well Porsche isn't generally thought of as a luxury car maker. Their thing is sports cars and now SUVs. Porsche is the gold standard I think among the German automakers. Daimler-Benz used to be. :cry:

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Thanks for the pic, I can clearly see the lineage there. This is the same thing that happens when the Koreans copy something and the originator of the theme refines their own work, it looks like the originator copies from the Koreans. Good find.

    I think that the looks issue both inside and out come down to a personal preferences because both cars are equally gorgeous for what they are. The themes are just so different IMO which makes them hard to compare.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I think the most promising aspect of the new XK is that Jag's interior designers have finally been dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century. If the XJ had an interior like this, I dont think it would be having as many "this is new?" problems.

    http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/08/jaguarxk07_inter.jpg
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    So no you wont't admit it. Excuse it is then. As always the sales/marketing stuff didn't really have anything (or weight) in this.

    Merc1, you are making a mountain out of a molehill... Let it go.. I provided NO excuse for the IS350 v 330i. Both cars are great and so did their reviews. A 1-pt win says nothing... 1-pt is well within the margin of error in these comparos, considering some of these points are awarded rather subjectively.... In one comparo, the testers glossed over many mechanical malfunctions that the 330i had, yet they proclaimed it a winner by 1-pt over the IS350! Huh !! Excuse me, when a car breaks down in a comparo it should NOT be winning that comparo, but that's the way it goes sometimes...
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I provided NO excuse for the IS350 v 330i. Both cars are great and so did their reviews. That one car wins by 1-pt says nothing... 1-pt is within margin of error, considering some of these points are awarded rather subjectively.... even glossing over many mechanical issues that the 330i had in the comparo, yet it won ! Huh !! when a car breaks down in a comparo it should NOT be winning that comparo, but that's the way it goes sometimes...

    Sorry OAC you did just that, provided an excuse. BTW, that C&D comparo wasn't the only comparo in which the IS350 took a back seat to the 330i so that about C&D's test will only take you so far. The IS350 has lost to the 330i in every comparo between them (that I know of) so far. You downplaying a win (whether it is one point or 10 points) is just plain ole excuse making. Let me even attempt something like that with a Benz comparo and what the boards light up. Its an age old thing, cry foul when the fav car doesn't win. I understand it truly I do.

    Do you think 330i BMWs are breaking down in the real world or do you think that a press car passing through many hands had something to do with it?

    If you want to see reliability and what not matter more in a comparo then you should be reading CR not any of the mainstream publications.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Sorry OAC you did just that, provided an excuse...

    Merc1, here are a bunch of excuses I could offer:

    - no MT to improve the fun-factor
    - VDIM intrusion hinders driveability/tossability
    - tight rear space/headroom

    But I didn't... BTW, these *excuses* are exactly what the comparos complained about the IS350... I am not excusing Lexus of these, but questioning the overall rating/points as awash. Oh well... I guess I cannot win, so I declare you the winner, if by 1-pt - a win is a win !!! :)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    But I didn't... BTW, these *excuses* are exactly what the comparos complained about the IS350... I am not excusing Lexus of these, but questioning the overall rating/points as awash. Oh well... I guess I cannot win, so I declare you the winner, if by 1-pt - a win is a win !!!

    Well OAC those aren't really "excuses" those are really the actual resons why the IS350 didn't win. Excuses (in an attempt to put the IS350 on top) would be the part about the reliability in one comparo when there have been other comparos in which the BMW had no problems yet still won.

    Thats just it, the points haven't all been "a wash" in every comparo either. I've seen you at least try to make the case (excuse) as to why Lexus didn't include a manual on the IS350 on the ELLPS board before too.

    Nah you can't win this one, a win is a win in your book also....or at least it will be if the LS640 creams the field this fall! It has been that way with you concerning the LS430 vs the segment also, you've never questioned anything regarding the point systems or ratings there. :P

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Here is the bottom-line, Merc1... Both cars are hardly driven the way these comparos drive them.... Real life driving dynamics, handling and performance b/w the two are really close, maybe a tad ahead for the Bimmer (not in straight-line tho'). Like I said, both cars are great, and have their biases... Owners of both cars seemed real pleased, and these are the opinions that actually count in the grand scheme of things, don't you agree ?
  • That is no longer true, I just returned from the New York Auto Show and Cayman S interior was stunning, better than anything mercedes, BMW have to offer in interiors.

    In fact I liked CaymanS interior better than 911. The subtle styling tuches and rich beige leather with dark metallic touches on the dashboard were just pure passion.

    On the other hand apart from S550's interior, all the benzes looked dated and downright dull compared to LS 460.
  • The XK looks like a pulped out rat or a cockroach on its final journey.

    The divine exterior which you are talking about is because you haven't been de-programmed yet by Morpheus. Why dont you come to senses and smell the roses.

    911 is a classic, cayman is an instant classic, the LS 460 looks divine, aston martin vantage was pure heaven. But XK, it was like a pickled rat in a surgeon's jar. Timeless! :P
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yeah I agree with that up to a point. The only thing is though I really do see a lot of BMW 3's (they drive like @@#$% a lot of times) tearing around than Lexuses or Mercedes so I think a good percentage of 3-Series drivers actually do appreciate what their cars can do so for them the feel and manual are deciding factors. Problem is there is no way to measure what percentage of the 3-Series or IS350 drivers really have a clue about what their cars can do or the skills to exploit those capabilities. So yeah I do hear what you're saying but the point of those tests were to find the best sports sedans mainly along with other factors.

    I think you know however that this wasn't what I was debating. My point was that there is always a gloss over factor whenever one's fav brand doesn't win a comparo and nothing I could even dream up would enable me to excuse a loss by Mercedes in your eyes, but yet we're supposed to think that comparos (more than C&Ds) between the IS350 and 330i are somehow not correct or somehow not indicative of any real differences between the two cars? Nah that isn't right.

    If we're going to question the (or imply that its supsect) criteria or methods of every comparo to try and put our faves ahead (or worse ignore the points) then it is pointless to discuss anything about them.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Steve you're going to have to read my posts more throughly. I said that Porsche IS the gold standard among German automakers.

    M
  • The jag for fun? Are you 70?
  • The pictures frankly dont do justice. When you see it in person, you realize how far the design has become passionate.
    Notice the change "from relentless pursuit" --> "passionate pursuit".

    Benz and Lexus presentations were placed next to each other and it was a site to behold. The visitors were impressed with benzes, especially with SLR, but they were enchanted with the Lexuses especially on the second floor where the new LS was.

    The interior is simply the best I saw on the whole show. Although they could have done even better by showing tan leather instead of creamy white and grey colored leather.

    The hybrid LS 600h L came with two pretty nymphs who are competing with the gorgeous specimen for attention.

    This car undoubtedly will become the gold-standard bar none. The center console was simply beautiful and the integrated exhaust pipes added to its athleticism.

    Other cars which stood out were the Ferraris especially the scaglietti with two tone paint and the black quattroporte.
  • was in white and looked stunning. Lot of pics were being taken. On the side was Land Rover with its own gear.

    More and more models are being introduced with integrated tail-pipes.

    Another thing about LS: In person it did not look similar to BMW 7. Very different front, side and back profile. Very unique.
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