Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





High End Luxury Cars

1477478480482483771

Comments

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "ljflx - Why is it that Mercedes' sales numbers for the S are in question and Lexus' never ending sales gains aren't?"

    I said I've seen one S car on the road and that I'm shocked by that and you turn that into me doubting MB sales figures?? Merc - I think if MB was a restaurant and I said the food's not bad you'd turn that into me saying it's the worst food on earth. You seem to want to read something into anything said about MB that doesn't please you - at least by certain people.

    BTW Tagman also said he's surprised at the lack of S cars he's seeing so go back and read his quote. And for the record I have no doubt about MB's sales distribution stats. As for the NY show - the LS600HL was overwhelming to most people and yes the S550 came across as a great car but one that is a generation behind all of a sudden. Maybe obsolete was a wrong word but my implication was past generation. That's also why there is so little talk on the LS460L or LS460 - they also look like past generation next to the LS600HL. We're talking a class of cars here where technology rules and people covet the latest and greatest. The S550 was NOT the car people coveted or talked about at the NY show - the LS600HL WAS. As they say on American Idol - it had the WOW factor.
  • carnut100carnut100 Posts: 7
    If the LS600 grabs buyers from S550, that would be surprising. A couple years ago, I went to an LS430 to save a little money (and my wife loved it), but couldn't handle the lack of drive/road enjoyment and went back to an S500. Now, I just bought a 2007 S550 and just think the road enjoyment in the German cars is for a different buyer than the Japanese cars. Truely the Lexus quality is magnificant. It will be interesting to see if they can give their ride some attitude! I have personally seen the New Lexus and it is a looker too! That being said, the quality on my S550 is perfect to date ... but only have 2k miles on it.
  • carnut100carnut100 Posts: 7
    Having owned both a CLS55 and now the new S550, why would you want to race a Lexus with and S550? Both are reasonably performing luxury cars ... neither are performance cars? What is the value of racing two slugs? Why would one care which is faster? ... And in a cars like this, isn't the more usable performance indicator how they do on curves and windy road?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "If the LS600 grabs buyers from S550, that would be surprising."

    There already are many S-class buyers that bought the LS cars over the years. IMO - the last thing in the world I'd think is that the LS600 grabbing more of them would be surprising. Now if you are talking hardened lifetime MB drivers then that's a different story and I'd agree with you. But I'd bet that even in that group many will give the car a serious look.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "The S600 is already here"

    Sure is right along with it's whopping $140k price tag. Whew!
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Interesting post, altho some of the figures are a little misleading. A fully optioned Tahoe LTZ stickers @ 48k BEFORE the eventual GM $10k REBATE. ;) The Escalade starts at $56k, so why buy Tahoe?

    And you mentioned that no loaded Audi,Saab, and Volvo "comes close to the S550's presence, competence, and tradition." I found this to be very intriguing seeing how Audi's Quattro was the driving force to fix other car companies "incompetence" in developing AWD for their cars, which has been standard on the A8 for quite sometime, long before other's entered in this forray. And the A8 does have enough road presence to stay competitive with the latest from Germany.

    And let's check the prices. An A8L will set you back about $72k before options, in which case most are frivolous. An S550 opens at $88k, which is not bad considering what the standard S550 starts at, it's a no-brainer.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    Why buy a Tahoe when one could buy a 'Slade?

    Well, where do I start? I'd rather have an LTZ3 with a sticker of 55k or so than a 'Slade at even the same price or less. Rap, hip hop, "urban style" (incidentally, when they say "urban" they don't mean Louisburg Square) etc. just don't do it for me. I'm not a pro athlete, urban hustler, pizza delvery boy, body shop manager or criminal defense attorney (sorry for the redundancy) and just don't fit the demographic.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I still find it interesting that the Escalade is immediately synonymous with hip-hoppers and rappers and athletes. If that is the case, then for sure the ubiquitous S-Class and 7-Series would also have to fit into this "category" also. These two are usually the first purchases of first-round draft picks and lottery winners.

    To pay 55k for a Tahoe over an Escalade is one's on prerogative, no matter how crazy it does sound. But with the much higher resale value over the Tahoe and the ever-present "wreath and crest" on the grille, I'd be hard pressed to take the Tahoe at the same price over the more powerful and prestigious Caddy.

    BTW, the typical person that buy's an Escalade usually resides in an "demographic" location that is known as suburbia, not urban. And the typical person's age is between 47-65 years of age, far from hip-hoppin and shooting basketball.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    Some posts here are diverting from HELMs. Sorry to be a jerk, but lets focus on the top 1% of the market which is our concern here.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Agreed. And of that top 1%, let's concentrate on those HELM's that don't have BOSE audio systems! :P
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I said I've seen one S car on the road and that I'm shocked by that and you turn that into me doubting MB sales figures?? Merc - I think if MB was a restaurant and I said the food's not bad you'd turn that into me saying it's the worst food on earth. You seem to want to read something into anything said about MB that doesn't please you - at least by certain people.

    Well I just find it curious that the sales would even be questioned when MB only does what the whole industry does as far as sales go. The Lexus IS has the same type of numbers, astounding, but no one is questioning if they're selling or not. Just a question not a guilty charge.

    Yeah obsolete is just absurd and people can covet, fawn, whatever over the car at an autoshow doesn't mean much until the sales start and the numbers come in. I remember you and Oac talking about how the lack of posts on the S-Class spelled trouble for the new S and yet the car is selling off the charts. Remember that? Likewise people oogling over a 90K car at an autoshow doesn't really mean much in the "real world" as you often like to put it. That is in the same category as the autorag stuff.

    Of course you standing in the Lexus section being excited by the car will carry over to no one talking about a Mercedes or something else, I wouldn't expect anything else from you on Lexus at this point. Everyone says the same thing about their favorite brand at an autoshow, well everything except that about competitors being "obsolete". Why would anyone be in the Lexus section "talking" about the S550? That only goes the other way around. Lexusfans are the ones that feel compelled to mention how Lexus is going to destroy Mercedes at every turn, not the other way around. It is called brand envy 101. The S being a "generation behind" is just ridiculous Ljflx. What does that say about the other cars in the segment? Or do they even matter. Why is MB always the topic of discussion in Lexusland? Very curious condition that is.

    Edit: I just noticed that you said that the LS460 appears the same way, "last generation" next to the LS600hL? I mean its the same car minus the hybrid system. I really think some of you are really going overboard with this hybrid hype. Even if the LS600hL is a big hit do you think they'll actually build enough of them to really matter in the overall sales picture against MB/BMW in this segment? Even if they built 5K a year it would still be only a drop in the bucket even for this segment.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Sure is right along with it's whopping $140k price tag. Whew!

    Yeah but you forgot everything is now "standard"...lol!

    M
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    Now lets not begin that, Lets love Bose! ;)
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    You are right Merc, all the auto show excitement does not matter if the car does not sell in the market at the price comparable to competitor.

    I also agree that Lexus is way behind mercedes benz in terms of cachet and cannot destroy the big benz even in long term. Nor will the benz go obsolete.

    The very fact that LS sells at a cut-rate price, a massive 30K less than S-class speaks volumes about the road ahead for Lexus.

    In HELM market the name of the game is not this or that technology, or value, reliability, handling and all that, but the bottom line is

    1. Your sales compared to your competitor
    2. Your ability to command premium compared to your competitor.


    On 1. Lexus has a slight edge
    On 2. Mercedes is way ahead of Lexus.

    I asked this question at the auto show, "Why Lexus sells at such a cut-rate price when the cars are so good compared to germans" and there was no straight answer. According to some, its just the way it is and they dont have an answer for that, and according to others, Lexus is slowly changing its course to stop this cut-rate image which is bleeding the brand in europe and Asia.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    This discussion is not about IS, its about the top 1% of the market, so we will appreciate if you can give example of bmw or some other HELM line-up etc when discussing.

    Stay on the topic please.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Well that changes everything! ;)
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "Well I just find it curious that the sales would even be questioned when MB only does what the whole industry does as far as sales go."

    Where exactly did anyone question the sales reported? Please provide the evidence. I repeat what I said - I'm shocked I've only seen one car so far. If that means I don't believe the sales reports in your mind - so be it.

    As for the rest of it - I guess nothing but praise can be said about your beloved brand and I also guess that we can't mention competitive cars on any singular board in your mind. I was having a nice pleasant conversation with Tagman and that's the board it happened on. If the conversation started here it would have happened here. Sorry but I don't follow the rigidity of rules you seem to want (in this case in a singular car or brand discussion), never did - never will. On top of that 95%+ of the talk on that board is price specific and MB gets some discussion points because of pricing and competitive strategy decisions we are speculating about.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    "The fact that LS sells at ....30K less than S Class speaks volumes about the road ahead for Lexus"

    Please tell me (I am incidentally no fan of Lexus) what these unspoken volumes are. I would love to be able to undercut a competitor by 35% or so and deliver a better ownership experience and maybe even a better product. Just think of what Lexus can do with that 30K advantage!
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    I don't know where he gets his data from either. There are times where I've seen a $76K S430 lease out at a lower cost than a $65K LS430. He's going by pure MSRP, paying no attention to the residuals, lease deals or standard equipment of the car. You equip a SWB LS to the hilt and you're at $72K, about $4K under a LWB comparably equipped S430. So where's the $35K?? On top of that the $72K LS430 will cost you more to lease. Now in comparable years you put some nice options on an old S500 and you got to $92K vs a $57K stripped LS430. So maybe there's the $35K he claims but there's a big difference in the equipment of the car not to mention the engine displacement. He acts as if they have equal equipment, are the same wheelbase and have the same engine displacement. In addition the LS build cost is much lower than the S. I've yet to see a business on earth that doesn't use lower build costs as an advantage in pricing. Finally you now have a $143K S600 vs a $118K BMW 760LI and a $112K 760I. In fairness the latter should be used in order to maintain the wheelbase differential. Is BMW offering cut rate pricing too?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I remember you and Oac talking about how the lack of posts on the S-Class spelled trouble for the new S and yet the car is selling off the charts. Remember that? ...

    Excuze moi ? Can you refresh my memory about where I said such ? I've been away from here awhile and only just returned and let the records show that I have had a lot of good things to say about the new S...

    The S being a "generation behind" is just ridiculous Ljflx. What does that say about the other cars in the segment? Or do they even matter. Why is MB always the topic of discussion in Lexusland? Very curious condition that is.

    You know what, Merc1, you are rabidly pro-MB and equally rabidly anti-Lexus. That is cool ! Both the new S and the new LS series will battle it out. They are the two top dogs in their class here in the NA market. How they do will chart the HELM space we talk about here. The new S550 that I saw was stunningly beautiful except for the rear trunk area. I have yet to see the new LS but all reports point to it being equally stunning and maybe a tad better-styled than the new S. I dunno tho'... I am looking forward to seeing the new LS series - 460/460L/600hL - and comparing them to the competition. Then I will be able to clearly tell you my opinion with its usual tint :)

    Hey, relax a bit Jim... This is just a forum for us car nuts to vent and pontificate. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and right or wrong, you gotta let it be. BTW, are you gonna check out the LS series when it gets here ? Would you be taking it for a spin and comparing it with your fav new S cars ? The 600hL is the car to really check out tho'... Reports say it will be an electronic marvel, and a re-1989 all over again kinda car... I cannot wait for this car to get here. Hopefully by early next year...
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    I remember you and Oac talking about how the lack of posts on the S-Class spelled trouble for the new S and yet the car is selling off the charts. Remember that? ...

    Excuze moi ? Can you refresh my memory about where I said such ? I've been away from here awhile and only just returned and let the records show that I have had a lot of good things to say about the new S...


    Nor do I ever remember making a comment about the S class board. I can't even remember looking up a post there in the last 6 months.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Where exactly did anyone question the sales reported? Please provide the evidence. I repeat what I said - I'm shocked I've only seen one car so far. If that means I don't believe the sales reports in your mind - so be it.

    The constant reminding that these numbers are sales to dealers is what I'm talking about. With no other brand other than MB are these things even brought up. Whether or not you admit it the implication is always there. What you do and don't see on the road doesn't always equate to how a car is actually doing when it comes to sales.

    As for the rest of it - I guess nothing but praise can be said about your beloved brand and I also guess that we can't mention competitive cars on any singular board in your mind. I was having a nice pleasant conversation with Tagman and that's the board it happened on. If the conversation started here it would have happened here. Sorry but I don't follow the rigidity of rules you seem to want (in this case in a singular car or brand discussion), never did - never will. On top of that 95%+ of the talk on that board is price specific and MB gets some discussion points because of pricing and competitive strategy decisions we are speculating about.

    Not true at all...it just tickles me to see so much pre-occupation with Mercedes and how Lexus is going to take over at every step. Its really hilarious. I didn't say anything about speculation on price because we all know you guys love to do that. Logical criticism is always good, not hype.

    It is equally amazing how short the memories are here. Both you and Oac said (here) that because the posting was slow on the S-Class board that meant something bad for the S-Class.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Excuze moi ? Can you refresh my memory about where I said such ? I've been away from here awhile and only just returned and let the records show that I have had a lot of good things to say about the new S...

    Sure!

    You know what, Merc1, you are rabidly pro-MB and equally rabidly anti-Lexus.

    And vice versa for you right? Of course. ;) Actually that isn't as true about me as you think. Its the hype and what not that gets me here, things I rarely deal in or see on MB boards. I mean this about the LS making the S obsolete and what not is just plain ridiculous, which is my point. I could say the same about the SL compared to the SC, but that would be a bit overboard don't you think?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Lots of wishing there. Why would Lexus charge higher premiums than Mercedes? That would take away one of their main reasons for being, to be cheaper than a Mercedes.

    The only time a GS or IS is priced above a Mercedes C or E is when they Lexus is fully loaded and the MBs are stripper models.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Please tell me (I am incidentally no fan of Lexus) what these unspoken volumes are. I would love to be able to undercut a competitor by 35% or so and deliver a better ownership experience and maybe even a better product. Just think of what Lexus can do with that 30K advantage!

    Well said, blkislandguy....

    There are lots of reasons why the LS sells at prices lower than the comparable S. The LS is produced cheaper than the S (the legendary TPS comes into play here), the LS does NOT yet have the 110+ years of heritage/marque of the MB brand, and more importantly (IMO), the MB is pretty much over-priced for what you get. On the latter, it may play to owners ego owning a high-priced MB sedan, however, the reality is that MB's (C and E) average selling prices are at or lower than comparable Lexus cars (ES and GS), except at the S-class. If Lexus had half as much history and heritage as MB, it'd sell at far higher premium at the HELM level...

    In time, Lexus will be higher than MB. Check out the GS and IS prices, they are already at or in some cases higher than comparable BMW and MB sedans... The new LS will sell at prices higher than the 7-series and A8, but slightly under the new S-class... but will deliver more bang for your bucks.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Somewhere between the Lexus LS extreme euphoria and the "obsolete" S550 lies the real truth about these vehicles. Unfortunately, only the S-Class is a real production machine at this point, and so far the reviews are, IN FACT without a doubt, nothing short of spectacular. ANY car of ANY brand would love to have reviews like the new Mercedes S-Class has.

    Lexus fans are not realistic to attempt to take this away from Mercedes or diminish it's significance just because they are excited about the upcoming LS models.

    On the other hand, just because the S-Class is now a successful reality, it does not mean that there are not truthful and realistic reasons for the Lexus fans to be getting excited about the new LS models. All the prelimenary information and reports suggest that these newer LS models will have their day in the sun. It is likely that they will be even better than the previous LS models in very real terms, not just in hype.

    I think it is fair to speculate, however, and in doing so, it would appear that the new LS is going to be a major challenger to Mercedes in the marketplace, but Mercedes has truly raised the bar very high with the S-Class, and the Lexus performance has historically fallen short. Will it continue to fall short? That is to be seen. In terms of technology and engineering, both models appear to have employed them well, but differently.

    The final comps will be by the press, the auto rags, and the buying public.

    That said, here are some of my wacky predictions:

    The S-Class sales will continue to do very well, but sales will plateau once the Lexus LS is released.

    As comps go, the regular LS will not match up to the S-Class, although the gap will be closer than before . . . close enough to sell VERY well . . . in record territory.

    The Lexus LS600hL will be proclaimed as the "king of luxury and technology", at least until something else comes along, but what?

    As I previously mentioned, the Lexus LS600hL will be released BEFORE March/April '07, with a price tag of $91,350.

    The Lexus LS600hL will quickly sell out for the entire model year and possibly beyond.

    The overall reliability of Mercedes will improve and the reliability of Lexus will decline very slightly.

    Mercedes has a big "surprise" up its sleeve.

    So does Lexus . . . and it's bigger.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Excuze moi ? Can you refresh my memory about where I said such ? I've been away from here awhile and only just returned and let the records show that I have had a lot of good things to say about the new S...

    Sure, your post 11293, quote:

    Len: I wouldn't even start a debate about the 2007 LS v 2007 S class. That debate is coming real soon, I guess. But if an anecdote of Edmund's is to be a pointer, compare the level of interest based on posts for the 2007 LS v 2007 S. That'd tell you something, isn't it ???

    What exactly did that mean if it didn't mean that because the 07' S-Class board wasn't on fire that the car was facing a problem in the market?

    Then you go on to say:

    Well, take a guess which car most people are talking about more ? Of course, I'd hear that the 2007 S is already a *known* commodity hence not much mystery/intrigue unlike the next LS, but that is the tip of the iceberg. More pointed is that even when known, the S is certainly not being described as the next thing to set the class on fire. No one who has seen the S has described it as a class setting, class defining car.

    Oh how things change. The 07' S-Class board wasn't filled with posts then or now for that matter. So much for it having anything to do with its success as you implied oh so long ago. Its like I said then its the same folks posting over and over in the 07' LS board like it is here, has little or nothing to do with sales. Lenn on the other hand was kinda lukewarm about your implication in his post # 11325 saying:

    I've never posted that this was an indicator of anything. But I am quite surprised that the S-class board is so dead with a new model around the corner. In fact the last post, which broke a long drought, was by someone at Edmunds raising the possibility that every S-class built since 1999 may have to be recalled. But I wouldn't discount what OAC is implying either. In 2000/2001 the new LS started to get a lot more posts as well before the 2001 intro, and the car was red hot exceeding 2001 sales goals by 40%. I think the interest in the 2007 car is far greater than the 2001 car and I fully expect this car will dominate this segment.

    Kinda halfway agreeing with your implication, but not quite.

    M
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Let's talk about the cars instead of arguing about who said what when and what they meant. Let's stay in the present and go forward.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,904
    Pat, please allow me to compliment you on your vastly improved management style on this board. Also thank you for allowing us a little more leeway and for your patience. Your remimders to stay on track are now much more on target, and as such, I am sure will be taken seriously. Good job!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    MEmory Refresher Course 1

    ;-)
Sign In or Register to comment.