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High End Luxury Cars

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  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,676
    Lex sales up 21% and cars up 39%. Remember these are cars shipped to dealers not yet sold to the public.

    OAC - I wouldn't cede that LS salse crown yet. Lexus will likely ship 4,000+ LS cars a month starting in September.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Touchy touchy Toy people. It doesn't feel so good being in the recall section does it, especially involving a car that the dealers are selling at a 5-10k premium for.

    BTW, yes, some LS' have caught fire due to faulty fuel rail assemblies(this model cycle btw). And the link that the Andy dude posted is inconclusive. What are the other 400k cars that are outside of Japan? The Prius is NOT the only American car under this "service campaign", it was also said that all 4.7L equipped Toyota's/Lexuses are too.

    I'm in no way bashing Toyota. They are one heck of an automaker and I do admire there consistant drive for perfection, but had this been V-Dub or Mercedes, or ANYTHING European, everyone would've been all over it and you know it.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    Oac, you are right. The hype is the problem. BMW relies too much on propaganda and too little on product.
    Look at their record. Their contributions to auto-industry and society:

    Quality and Reliability: zero
    craftsmanship and Love: zero
    fuel economy: zero
    performance: zero (except M3)
    luxury: zero
    heritage and antique value: zero (Remember it was Alfa Romeo and Maserati who introduced SPORT-SEDAN to the world NOT BMW)
    beauty: zero
    environmental commitment: zero
    innovation: zero (lot of useless gadgets, thats all)
    safety : zero

    Its all zero zero zero. :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    An increase of 17% in the US is astonishing in light of the fuel prices and shaky car business. It should be noted that Toyota increased dramatically in May while Ford lost another 2%. And Toyota is on their turf.

    Toyota's key is that they've now found the magic potion in operations in America: Keep the product fresh and exciting(Toyota-exciting?) Brilliant.

    With the all-new Tundra on the horizon, Detroit had better wake up fast as this is supposed to outshine all others. They narrowly missed the bullet with the Titan's quality woes and bad customer reception, but Toyota is not Nissan.

    And if they take the truck market by storm, which has been all-American for quite sometime, depsite the foreign makes, it's all over for the big 3 as we know it.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Steve, did we get a little carried away with the 0000's. True, BMW has lost some traction on priorities. BUT, it's still a company that is legendary and wears it's name nicely. While reliablilty has suffered(but improved) and the whole Love and beauty thing is purely subjective, performance is very legit when it comes to BMW, and you omitted the fastest player on the block: The M5(just 0.02 secs faster than the CLS 55, but it is faster).

    No I'm not the Munich lover I was in the '90's, BUT, you got to remember one thing. BMW AG is the only major luxury player that's all it's own. No VW, Ford, Toyota, GM interference. For good or bad, it still has it's bragging rights.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    BMW is not the only player. There is Porsche too.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    MAJOR luxury maker, not specialty. And with Porsche buying into VW, we'll see how long it remains this way.

    BTW, before you reply, I know they have the Cayenne, but it still doesn't make them full-line, maybe when they finally give the Panamera the go-ahead.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    You have to define MAJOR. By what measure are you saying Porsche is not MAJOR. Is 10B$ in sales, 1B$ in revenue not major? Please clarify

    Also does it matter whether somebody interferes or not. Product is all that matters. Even BMW is not independent, it depends on suppliers, on ZF for transmissions,

    on GM and Daimler for hyrbid systems they are co-developing etcetc
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,676
    Steve - Porsche is a great compamy with quite possibly the best niche product in all of manufacturing - but in this space - it is a peanut.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,676
    Here was the sales chart. Lexus was up 9% overall - I misread something before. Amazing though how Lexus has transformed to big car sales this year and this is with an LS on life support given the big changes with the new model.

    http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2006060141005
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Amazing though how Lexus has transformed to big car sales this year and this is with an LS on life support given the big changes with the new model.

    Considering what is on the horizon . . . "you ain't seen nothin' yet!"

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The 7 series sales were only up 5.5% over May 2005.
    The 5 series sales, however, were up a stunning 34% over May 2005.

    BMW: Listen to the numbers! You do not make the requisite bloated luxo-barge which is what most HELM buyers expect.

    Get out of this market and concentrate on creating serious challengers to the Boxster and 911.
    That's where you belong!
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Get out of this market and concentrate on creating serious challengers to the Boxster and 911.
    That's where you belong!


    You have already made your point . . .
    but are you going to try to shovel it again and again, "Steve"? ;)

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Has a nice rhythm to it.
    They should make it into a jingle. ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The point is the numbers show the 7 is a HELM failure, bearing out my thesis.
    It's always nice to see the real numbers.
    Onward and upward, BMW!
    Out of the HELM's and into the serious performance sports car arena!

    I feel a migraine coming on. Did you say SSSS...teve? :sick:
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I'm not talking what it makes in revenue/profits. If that's the case, Audi wouldn't need VW.

    I'm talking about whose calling the shots. Nobody but BMW calls it's shots.

    And on co-development, didn't Porsche share Tiptronic with other Euro makes, and now in the process of probing Audi for DSG? Like ljflx said, Porsche is a big player in this field with it's first-rate sports cars and SUV's, but in this foray, it's a dot in a huge circle

    BTW, name one automaker who doesn't have distributors and/or suppliers.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Out of the HELM's and into the serious performance sports car arena!

    If you think that BMW should abandon its 7 series and focus on Porsche-style sports cars, then I guess you would tell Porsche to stop their plans to build the Panamera.

    Really, Howard, while your point about the 7 is well taken, it makes terrific business sense to have it, and I believe that the car will only improve over time. I think the 7 has merit even in its current format. In addition, aren't we looking forward to the next Z8 (or Z6, depending on who you believe)?

    Chill out. Now you've got Steve telling us that BMW is all 0000's. This is ridiculous. Sure BMW can do a lot of things better (who can't?), but all zero's and killing the 7 are all too extreme here, IMO.

    :)

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I hate being annoyingly redundant, but oh what the heck....I feel that the HELM realm and BMW aren't a really good fit. That's it.

    Our very wise full-time moderator and part-time HELM honor-roll winner smartly reminds us "don't feed the trolls."
    'Nuff said.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,676
    I get your point but the problem is BMW's image would suffer without a car in this class and that would drag down the brand. BMW isn't Porsche - they are a full service business and the 7 has actually sold better than ever the last 4 years. The problem is that the cars marketing appeal is to the low volume end of the segmnent and that area is getting crowded.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    I agree. Let me add though that it seems to me that the BMW customer base is bi modal: younger, performance oriented professionals, single or just married w/o kids for the 3 Series and a little later for the 5 Series. On the other end of the barbell is the 7 Series customer who is probably the same age as the S Class customer, i.e, in his 50's and a full generation older than the 3 Series buyers.

    I wonder if the M/B and Lexus customer bases are split as widely? I see a wider variety of ages in the C Class than in the 3 Class. This may be BMWs problem with the 7 Series: while they can build and market well to what a young attorney might want, they don't have the same skills at selling to the senior partner.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    But between it's performance dynamic, it's controversial styling, and it's iDrive tech, these will not attract the "Senior Partners", like a more conservative status symbol (S-Class), or a low-maintenance, smart-buy (LS430).

    Poured over the sales numbers.

    Toyota/Lexus are doing their thing.

    BMW having a very strong year so far, but still not enough to eclipse Lexus.

    Mercedes GL with VERY strong sales, outselling the M-Class, a surprise to me. I like the new M, with it's RX-style! :)

    Chevy Colorado will not sell 100k units, impressively bad for a brand that can attract 600k+ full-size trucks to a 7 year old truck.

    FJ Cruiser has sold over 15k units already, which vexes me, since I wanted a shiny new Supra instead! :(

    Durango sales down 40%, giving it's business to the new Tahoe.

    Solstice days supply: 13 days
    Sky days supply: 2 days
    Mazda3 days supply: 30 days

    DrFill
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    Say what? BMW drop the legendary 7 so that they can sink down and fight with Porche in the hundreds of cars/month category? Take your 545 on another trip to the mall where everyone can "admire" its Bangle styling, before dreaming up another suggestion like that.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes. You hit on something quite significant.
    BMW appeals mainly to people from approximately mid 20's to 55 max.
    The typical HELM buyer is usually older and more conservative and they will gravitate toward S-Class and LS vehicles.

    As I am becoming more of a victim of slow oxidation, I could see the possibility of an LS in my future.
    There will come a time when I will have to have a good hard look in the mirror and realize my BMW days are over.
    At that time I will have finally reached the second plateau.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Uhh...I do believe you mean "Porsche."

    No trouble spelling "Lexus," I would imagine.

    What an absolutely fine idea. Nothing much scheduled for tomorrow. Indeed, I will park my 545 right outside of Neiman Marcus. And to think people used to worship idols!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Important message from the Edmunds' technical department:
    Please use only one :lemon: per post.
    If you continue to use multiple :lemon: 's, the :lemon: - colored dye will fade and will prevent other posters from using this emotorcon in the future.
    Thank you.

    Edward Munds
    Technical Designer
  • lexus_jnlexus_jn Posts: 102
    Their design and styling is second to none (IMHO...Merc's overall design & styling are often better than Lexus & BMW) but if they don't have a good strategy to improve quality, Merc's image & its reputation will be fading away for the years to come. This article below is just a small explains why Merc is losing some of its loyal owners and I guess it could be a wake up call for the folks in Munich.

    http://motoring.iafrica.com/newsbriefs/428991.htm
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    As I am becoming more of a victim of slow oxidation, I could see the possibility of an LS in my future. There will come a time when I will have to have a good hard look in the mirror and realize my BMW days are over.

    I don’t know what you are talking about unless you are just trying to tease the Lexicans in which case it is funny indeed.

    Where does it say a certain car is for older people? Actually, I believe there are ideally configured cars for them but it has little to do with the brand characteristics we discuss around here. And the more I think about it a BMW would be better suited for them by virtue of its stability and responsiveness.

    One of the most painful things I ever had to do was take the keys away from my mother who drove until she was 90. It was a jail sentence for her but was necessary. She loved the BMW and Boxster, relentlessly citing the firm ride and always talked about how she preferred a stick shift because it felt you had control over the engine. She was proof that cars have nothing to do with age.

    BTW, during that ordeal of weaning her from the car I discovered that there are absolutely no laws in New York State regarding driving and the elderly. As long as they can read the eye chart like the rest of us their license gets renewed. They can be totally debilitated and incompetent but the State has no recourse to keep them off the road as they do with DWI. I don’t know if this has changed but this was the case back in 2000.

    I can’t tell you how painful it was to have to take her car away. She cried on many occasions begging me not to, just like a child who was denied ice cream when all of the other kids got it. She wore her license like a badge of honor. The license itself became a status symbol for her. But I had to do it because of several incidents where innocent people could have been hurt. The last was when she almost took out a row of people waiting at a bus stop. Fortunately no one was ever harmed.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes. That's really tough.
    My mom never drove. She always relied on NYC transit, taxis and as a last resort, me.
    The toughest thing was seeing this once vibrant, never home bundle of energy looking all shriveled up and barely able to use a walker.

    In my community, we have several folks in their 80's driving Corvettes, Boxsters and the poor man's version, the Miata.
    Most of these older folks around here drive pretty well-probably a little too fast-as one ages, one gets more impatient.
    However, one poor old soul was stopped by the troopers for, get this, driving a golf cart on Interstate 75 in the wrong direction, mind you!
    Sounds like a future Bush cabinet appointment to me.

    I'm 20 years away from being 80.
    I will be driving a LPS, or HELM as long as I am able.
    Still, with almost all my relatives now gone, one can't help taking stock.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,676
    "One of the most painful things I ever had to do was take the keys away from my mother who drove until she was 90. It was a jail sentence for her but was necessary"

    Designman - My mother is still a 75mph driver as she approaches her 89th birthday. Last year she got pulled over by police on a 55mph local highway near my home. The cop looked at her drivers license and must have been stunned to see her age. She looks about 15+ years younger. He let her go (it was Mothers day) and told her to slow down. I'm amazed at her abilities as she doesn't need glasses for distance or reading - at that age - and is still an excellent driver.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Here was the sales chart. Lexus was up 9% overall - I misread something before. Amazing though how Lexus has transformed to big car sales this year and this is with an LS on life support given the big changes with the new model.

    Quite. Notice that the ES beat the RX in sales? I'm sure it wont last, but it is interesting to see nonetheless.
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