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High End Luxury Cars

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  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Yes, you did. Dewey: "my 2003 530SP has been as faultless as any Lexus could hope to be, not to mention more enjoyable to drive!"

    Nope, wrong identity that was not me who said that! Just like this other person I can tell you my BMW can out-Lexus any Lexus in terms of reliability!

    Your doubts about CR data does not extend to Lexus models but only to BMW models! Interesting, dont you think??"

    Can you point out an example of this?


    You suggestion that the 98 BMW5 series is unreliable despite a CR rating of average reliablity!


    So, I guess you're saying that all of the trouble I had with my '91 300E and '93 400SEL was all imaginary?

    Show me one sentence where I boasted about MB reliability post-1983 model year?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Lexusguy?

    These stats mean nothing unless you tell me what years they represent! Is this just for the 97 model year?
    Do these stats include the horrendously unreliable BMW 7 series?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The stats include all BMW models, ranging from their last redesign to present.
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    The Lexus-attraction for many fourm members is based on irrational FEAR! The key motivator for buying a Lexus is the fear of being stuck in a isolated dark lonely roadside or to spend a big portion of the day visiting overpriced repair shops!! Unfortunately such notions are FALSE since such events can happen to any car including non-BMWs!

    It is a shame that such fears will deprive so many forum members here from driving a car that they truly and passionately want to drive.


    I agree with you. I wouldn't reject the BMW 5-series based solely on reliability concerns. I rejected it based on the size of the back seat and the spartan interior. Please note that the Bimmer relevant for this forum (see listing at top) is the 7 series, not the 5. Admittedly, a properly equipped 5 is a great-driving car. But it won't carry my business associates and my teenagers in anywhere near the same comfort level in the back seat as the LS does.

    Now I chose the LS over the 7 on numerous grounds, including styling, the electronics package, reliability (see both CR and JDP data - it's pretty disconcerting to say the least), and value. Oh, and I've owned a 7 series, so I can speak from real world experience as to the good and bad of the car.

    Bottom line: I agree properly equipped 3 or 5 series are great driving sedans and are reasonably reliable. But the 7 can't be thrown around in any near the same manner as its two smaller cousins, and its reliability is below acceptability to me. And I dislike its looks, although that's just IMO.

    The S is the only car I rejected in this class based solely on reliability. And I'll stand by that decision until MB can prove it makes a reasonably reliable car.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    In other words what you are saying is consistent with what I have been repetitively saying all along:

    BMW3/5 series are not unreliable cars and cannot be proven to be unreliable based on statistics.

    The only way you can prove BMW as unreliable is if you add in the 7 series and x5 models.

    Show me a post where I boasted about the reliability of any other BMW than the BMW3/5 series?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Now I chose the LS over the 7 on numerous grounds

    I would have made the same choice! But in my case I have a bias towards smaller cars since I really do not need the space.

    Since the BMW 7 series is relevant for this forum, I will respectfully withdraw from this forum since defending the reliability of the 7 series would be Alamo-like.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    defending the reliability of the 7 series would be Alamo-like

    Reliability isn't everything, even to a Lexus owner. High on my personal priority list is luxury.
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    I will respectfully withdraw from this forum since defending the reliability of the 7 series would be Alamo-like.

    Please don't leave...we need the input of BMW enthusiasts here! And like syswei says, reliability isn't everything (although it's high on my personal list). How about defending the 7 on its status as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" amongst its direct competitors?

    In any case, I'll personally continue to enjoy your posts about BMW in general and the 5 in particular in the Luxury Performance Sedans forum.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    This is just imho but the title of the forum is "marques" not "models"...it really sounds more like the "brands" should be under discussion, not just the 7/LS/S etc.

    Moderator?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Actually I'm glad that some BMW fans have joined the forum. Welcome! When I see MB fans repeatedly deride Lexus for not being sporty enough for their tastes, I always wonder, why are these guys not BMW fans?

    Thats because Mercedes has always been in the middle of a BMW and a Lexus in terms of sportiness. Most Mercedes buyers don't want the full on sportiness of a BMW, but they don't want the Toyota/Buick like drive/feel of the any Lexus outside of the new GS/IS either. There is always more control in the German car or more importantly the feel of more control than you get in Lexus' core models like the LS and ES. Now the GS and IS are sportier models supposedly chasing after BMW, but they don't hit the mark there either.

    BTW, I like all three German luxury car makes.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Thats because Mercedes has always been in the middle of a BMW and a Lexus in terms of sportiness....

    Hate to get in the middle of a food fight, but I'd argue that the word *sport* and the cars we debate on this forum - S, 7, A8 and LS - do not belong. So I'd suggest we eschew the word *sport* from this forum permanently, imo, cos no one buys these large sedans because of their *sportiness*....
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    This is true, except for in the case of an odd 750i Sport buyer, but the difference mentioned in my above post is in fact there and it is a factor to some buyers. A luxury car can still give a great ride and be somewhat fun to drive. It doesn't have to float and keel to give a good ride either, the S-Class proves that. Now when Lexus makes this new LS more roadworthy without ruining the ride you'll all of sudden see the point.

    M
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    "How about defending the 7 on its status as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" amongst its direct competitors?"

    Invalid, because that would be the 5 series, if any. The 7 is strictly a status symbol, IMO. It's too complex to even drive without a training course - how can that be the ultimate driving machine? :confuse:
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "How about defending the 7 on its status as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" amongst its direct competitors?"

    It isnt. The Maserati Quattroporte owns that title. Compared to the Maser's Ferrari V8 and F1 gearbox, the BMW is hardly an "ultimate" anything.
  • i think more accurately it should be....nobody on this forum purchases
    a Lexus with sportiness in mind.

    the S, 7, & A8 all have packages and
    variations in model to add more "sport" to the equation. just because these
    automobiles aren't pint sized or mid sized doesn't mean they can't be driven
    with a lot of enthusiasm.

    when i purchased my 05 A8 sportiness played a large factor in the decision.
    the model i purchased is the short wheel base version. it is incredibly nimble
    but at the same time gives you the width and comfort of a larger sedan. all that
    and you can still sit comfortably in the back seat.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    However you want to look at it but I'd bet that 5% or less of the people that buy any of these cars are looking for sportiness and I'm talking flagship cars here.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Blah blah blah blah...... I'm still waiting for someone to reply.

    As I said in my earlier post, "There's a ton of talk about "when you're out of warranty" or "long term."

    If there are just a small percentage of people that keep their cars beyond the warranty period, then there are only a very small percentage that truly need to worry about the cost of reliability.

    And, as I also said in my earlier post..... "Perhaps these Edmunds forums attract that remaining 20%.... or perhaps just those that need to find something negative on BMW, et al."
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    If there are just a small percentage of people that keep their cars beyond the warranty period, then there are only a very small percentage that truly need to worry about the cost of reliability.

    Here's a reply from "someone": What do you think happens to cars when they go off lease - do they get tossed into the ocean? These cars get passed on to other owners, only some of which are under manufacturer certified extended warranties. And even those extended warranties are limited in time and coverage; for example, most don't cover electronics, which is what is most likely to break in these cars. Reliability is very relevant to these owners.

    Second, how do you think lease rates are set? Are residual values related to how these cars will hold up 3, 4 or 5 years after initial purchase? You better believe it.

    Third, even if a repair is covered under warranty, I for one don't want to spend my free time dealing with service departments. And if I buy (or lease) an $80,000 S, I don't want to be driving some lesser loaner car while the dealer tries to figure out what's wrong with my car. Read the forums for some of these cars (MB especially), and you'll see people disgusted with the time they don't even have their new cars because they are in the shop.

    Finally, I am one of those people who want to keep their cars beyond any warranty, so it is very relevant to me. And I don't believe MB would be going through the management changes and financial difficulties it is if these reliability issues were just the imagination of a few posters on this forum.

    So the lack of reliability is in fact relevant to a lot of people, including 8,500 former Mercedes employees that are losing their jobs.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    …I'd argue that the word *sport* and the cars we debate on this forum - S, 7, A8 and LS - do not belong.

    Compared to the Maser's Ferrari V8 and F1 gearbox, the BMW is hardly an "ultimate" anything.

    However you want to look at it but I'd bet that 5% or less of the people that buy any of these cars are looking for sportiness and I'm talking flagship cars here.


    Spoken like true Lexicans. Poor sport sedan ain’t good fuh nuttin. In that case I guess the Quattroporte was a blunder. Ditto the 7 and the MB tuners.

    Not only do you guys not appreciate what a sport sedan is, I doubt whether you even know what it is. The closest some of you guys have come to acknowledging the existence of a sport sedan is by saying it makes your teeth rattle. Well have this for breakfast now that you have ruined mine… In comparison to the 7 the LS is nothing more than a Lincoln Town Car and DeVille. Don’t even talk to me about fit finish and reliability because it doesn’t apply to this particular topic.

    This place needs is a couple of 7owners. Lexicans don’t know sport. Period.

    Ever wonder why the LS sport package doesn’t sell? Because Lexicans don’t know sport. There’s no use, we live on two different planets.

    ;-)
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    "Spoken like true Lexicans. Poor sport sedan ain’t good fuh nuttin. In that case I guess the Quattroporte was a blunder. Ditto the 7 and the MB tuners."

    You must be in a bad mood today. Let's add up the volume of those car sales in the segment and see if we get over 5%.
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