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High End Luxury Cars

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  • I think the number one sport sedan in this class is the Maserati, followed by Jaguar XJR. Audi S8 and the S55 AMG are about the same. The fact that BMW does not have a M powered package for the 7-series actually makes it less sporty than the models I've mentioned.

    However, I do believe a small percentage of buyers buy the 7 series because they think it's more sporty, because after all, BMW does indeed have more sporty model throughout its lineup, even though the 7 series itself is hardly sporty.

    Even with the sporty models such as S8, S55, or XJR, they make up a very small percentage of total sales, most people that buy these nice big cars buy them for the luxury, the comfort, the sporty models are more headline grabber than anything else.
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    The interesting thing is that this is KBB's projections of who they think will have the best resale value of a 2006 car in 2011. Here's the way they put it:

    Based on well-informed projections by Kelley Blue Book's expert staff of market analysts that are encapsulated in the Kelley Blue Book Residual Value Guide, the awards honor vehicles that are expected to have the best resale value after five years of ownership.

    Thanks, but I'd rather look at past history than someone's guess of what will be 5 years from now. I can evaluate someone's past performance a lot better than I can evaluate someone's future predictions!

    It's funny, because I can remember back in 1994 when MB's residuals were so high that I decided to buy a new rather than used E, because the difference was so small that the new car warranty outweighed it! Previously, I had bought a 1986 735i with 11,000 miles on it in 1987 for about a 25% discount off of new, and assumed I could do the same on an MB, but I couldn't come close to that kind of discount.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    And how many S8 or S63 sales would be made again ????

    I guess you don't understand that everything isn't about sales. We were talking about a sporty sedan that is what the 750i Sport, S8 and upcoming S63 will be, sporty sedans in the full-size luxury car class. They aren't made just for sales, they're made for people who want some with a little more bite, something I guess isn't understood in LS430 land. Who cares what they sell, that doesn't change the fact that they are there.

    Let's face it, MBs and BMWs derive a huge chunk of their Euro sales from low end 3 and C-class cars that are mostly used as sherpas.... taxi cabs, I mean.. These cars litter the streets of Europe - vinyl seats, no A/C, manual windows, steel wheel covers, pretty much bare-bones... All of which counts towards MB and BMWs *prestige*, eh ? Oh, but here in NA, they market them exclusively as luxury brands... Good marketing that's all...

    So what, they ain't lost one lugnut of prestige by doing this for over 100 years. It must be frustrating to keep repeating something as irrelevant as that, because buyers in those countries don't care. If you're going to "face it" then you'd be facing the fact that no matter what BMW and Mercedes sells at the low end their top end M, AMG, V12, 2-door, convertibles etc. etc. get all the glory. This is something Lexus only wishes it had. Now if Lexus can overcome their Toyota roots with certain buyers here then surely Mercedes and BMW can overcome some entry-level products that aren't their main focus. Does it bother LS430 and SC430 buyers that a ES330 is a Camry in leather? Heck no. Ditto goes for a S500 buyers who sees a B200 Turbo or a 750i buyer that sees a 130i in the same showroom. Darn right BMW/Mercedes are masters at marketing, its a cheap shot to knock them for that.

    Yes, MB and BMW are pretigious brands, no doubt, but to make them into these super brands is a myth, especially these days. Notice how the new GS is priced close to the comparable MBs and BMWs. How about the new IS and its MB and BMW competition... practically about same. Does that tell you something ???

    Yeah it does. It says that Lexus see itself getting closer to BMW and Mercedes in those market segments, sure does. The brand itself, years off from doing the same as a whole. BTW, I don't make BMW and Mercedes out to be superbrands, only that they are more prestigious than Lexus. The "Super Brands" would be Bentley, Rolls, Ferrari, Aston-Martin and the like.

    The kinda of sentiment MB had back in 1989. Continue the sarcasm...

    No, that is isn't sarcasm. Lexus being a no-go in their homd market is called a fact. It isn't the Germans fault that Lexus didn't start their dominance in their own market and let foreigners have their own homeland luxury car market.

    Also I noticed on the 2007 LS board you stated that because the LS thread has more traffic than the 2007 S-Class thread that means trouble for the S-Class. I guess that must be the same trouble the better selling E-Class is in next to the much more popular 2006 GS thread. Too funny.

    M
  • mbzlvrmbzlvr Posts: 14
    Los Angeles Times, along with Edmunds.com surveyed CEOs and found that Japanese cars were not on the "most wanted" list. It also mentioned that if the CEO drives a Lexus, the employees better ride a bus so as not to upstage their CEO.

    Ooops, the article said Tercel, not Lexus but just as well, a Toyota is a Toyota, no matter how hard you try to convince yourselves that a Lexus is a luxury marque.

    Ricky
  • Lexus is a Toyota.

    Infinity is a Nissan

    Aston Martin, Jaguar, and Land Rover are all Fords.

    Ferrari is a Fiat

    Lamborghini is an Audi

    Audi is a Volkswagen

    Bentley is a Volkswagen

    Rolls Royce is a BMW

    Maybach is a Mercedes

    Mercedes is a Chrysler

    Saab is a GM

    Come on... you can do better than that.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Can't believe I'm going to say this in Lexus' defense but that article is why newspapers should leave the "car" stuff to actual car magaiznes. A survey of CEOs is one thing, but they usually don't have a clue about the actual cars themselves, WSJ included.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Oh? Please point me to the Toyota on sale in the US that is a rebadged version of the LS430 for less money. Cant find one? How about the GS, IS, or SC? Still coming up short? If a Toyota is a Toyota, shouldnt there be a Toyota version of the LS? I wonder why anyone would possibly buy a Ford GT? A Ford is a Ford. They might as well drive a Focus, right?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    Thanks, Gary. I was trying to be generous by giving him MSRP instead of actual sale price. By the way that price you noted on the LS residual didn't include the Nav and ML so the 61% is really closer to 65%. The typical options on the LS are the ones from the premium edition. I've pointed out the KBB shortcomings often on these boards but I was tired of going there. Their projected future residuals are based on lease residuals being offered by the manufacturers. The more you subsidize a leasae the greater you do in KBB. It provides about as much value as someone trying to predict the stock market values in 3-5 years. But if Dewey wants to buy that yardstick than I hope he lesaes his cars. The residual I'll never forget is the 2001 S-class. MB was offering high 60's as future retained percentage value in the leases I was offered (and they were MB finance deals) after 3 years. Actual result was high 40's. The E-430 was just as bad. As usual future predictions and reality are two different things.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Appreciate your attempts to seek alternative methods in determining residual values and I can fully understand your rationale but your estimate is just as good aa guesstimate as what is provided by the bluebook.

    Using the following ratio:

    (05 resales bought 3 years ago)/(05 Edmunds pricing) is as an a imperfect figure as using (current resale)/(original msrp)

    A perfect residual value figure would need the prices of the original cost and the current resale. Unfortunately as far as I know that data is missing!

    Here in Canada we cant even consider the above computations because there is no equivalent Edmunds TVM pricing for Canadian vehicles . In fact we dont even have access to Dealer invoice pricing information!

    Bottom Line: The Blue Book ranked BMW/Mini as number one and the Blue Book is considered the authority in residual values.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Okay, if you refuse to like KBB, then how about ALG? They advise all manufactuers on lease residuals. They do a pretty darned good job from what most industry experts say.... ALG sets the standard.

    For two years in a row, BMW had the highest residual value as a brand for the luxury segment:

    http://www.alg.com/awards.aspx

    Lexus is a respectable #2.... but there's nothing like being #1!

    (Of course, I know what happens next.... In response we'll start comparing the residuals for the LS430 to the 7-Series........)

    Remember that there is far more to an entire brand than one car! Especially one that only makes up 5% of total sales..... Oh, FWIW, what are the current residuals on those two cars? Aren't they about the same, anyways? Around 60% for 36m/36k?....
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Oh? Please point me to the Toyota on sale in the US that is a rebadged version of the LS430 for less money. Cant find one? How about the GS, IS, or SC? Still coming up short?

    Hmmm, are not the majority of Lexus sales based on the Toyota Camry/Highlander platform?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    KBB, ALG and the Blue Book:

    What further stats do you fellows need to understand that BMW is number one in residual values?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The Japanese are known for being very Modest...

    True, but certainly not Lexus owners in North America ;)
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    I told you already - you follow your theory world of future values and I'll follow the real money world of real sales. Proof of actual sales is far greater than opinions of future predictions in my book. We disagree - pure and simple.

    But as a financial pro I'd advise you to lease and not buy. If your going to believe in future values put the risk on the financing party whenever you can - particularly in something that has future residuals that are pegged at higher prices than past performance supports.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    Now you are getting personal again. For what it's worth Japanese and Europeans are conservative in business.
  • Los Angeles Times, along with Edmunds.com surveyed CEOs and found that Japanese cars were not on the "most wanted" list. It also mentioned that if the CEO drives a Lexus, the employees better ride a bus so as not to upstage their CEO.

    Bill Gates drives a Lexus to work.(SC, I think)
    I personally will not be ashamed of driving the same car marque as Bill Gates.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Aren't the majority of Audi sales from VW Golf, Passat platforms? Arent the majority of Cadillac sales from Chevy Tahoe platforms? Arent the majority of Jaguar sales from Ford platforms? Isnt the CLS an E with some swoopy body work and a mega price hike? Isnt the Cayenne a Toureg with an even bigger price hike?

    I wasnt talking about Lexus' volume players, I was talking about the "prestige" cars that sell for above $40K, but if you want to knock Lexus for platform sharing, you've got to knock everyone else that does it. Could Lexus make an RX330 on an independent platform? Easily, but it would raise the price to ML500 levels. It makes much more sense for them to use a perfectly capable existing platform, undercut the Germans by ten grand, and hammer them on sales. Just because most European car companies use a single badge for all of their models, it doesnt make them "better" than anyone else.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    That's just another measurement of prestige and status. No one's arguing Lexus is third - at the moment. But here's your problem - prestige does not equal quality and if the company was paying for your car and you were a CEO chances are you'd take the prestige and think nothing of overpaying for it. In the end your post proves status and nothing more. You know what - under those conditions and having a chaffeur drive me around and knowing the check is being paid for by shareholders that allow it, chances are I'd take a LWB car with the extra legroom as well.

    But I'll tell you what - when I see an ordinary person driving home in a new S500 to a house that is worth 50% of mine I know he's just BSing himself on status. Besides, after three years his car is worth less - on top of that. So much for status three years later.
  • Very well said...Excellent

    No he can't do better then that...He took his best shot and it fizzled under the light of pure and unchallangeable LOGIC....A reasoned response....Facts vrs Fiction..
  • Dewey:

    Something you may not know...U.S. citizens cannot buy New Luxury cars that are not made in Canada ...from Canada.

    Taking into concideration the difference in our exchange rates....A New Lexus or Mercedes is quite a bit cheaper in Canada then in the US...
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